Looks like the worm has turned on the gun issue for candidates

[BoatsTwice]

"Democrats Speak Softly On Gun Control"

http://www.ctnow.com/news/custom/newsat3/hc-guns0709.artjul09,0,846459.story?coll=hc-headlines-newsat3

[markus]

1. And its about time

This issue more than any other is the Dem killer in the Red states. Here in North Dakota, its a third rail: touch it and die.

There needs to be a change in the Democratic Party platform to specifically state support for the 2nd amendment, and defer any "reasonable" regulation of guns to the states and localities.

If it behooves someone in SF or NY or DC to be pro-gun control, that's fine. (It really shouldn't have taken my co-worker six months to get a permit to own a 20-ga shotgun for trap shooting).

But there shouldn't be anything in the platform that could be interpreted as anti-gun or anti-shooting sports. No party that opposes shooting sports or hunting and fishing can expect to carry states in the south, mid-west or west.

[MrBenchley]

2. Funny

Don't see many Republicans out there talking about getting rid of the Brady Bill or putting more assault weapons on the street, either....but then discussing gun control while the country goes downhill is like discussing White House china patterns: there are much bigger issues, except for the handful of loonies who obsess about their guns 24/7.

Nor do you see many of Republicans boasting about endorsements from the NRA, do you? Even Dumbya pretended he was pro-gun control..

Wonder how many of that 47% in the Gallup poll wanted laws kept as they are (33% did), and how many wanted fewer laws?

http://www.gallup.com/search/Results.asp

Seems like 85% want laws as they are or made tougher.

[Moosenose]

3. "As Rummel put it, "Democrats think this is political poison." "

well, well, well...

[MrBenchley]

7. And as this thug also put it...

""Our members are very savvy. They know the rhetoric doesn't match the record," said Chris W. Cox, the National Rifle Association's chief lobbyist."
Translation: "We're nuts about guns and hate Democrats. Republicans pander to us."

[Moosenose]

8. Come on, Mr. Benchley....

this article quotes a guy who works for a gun control group saying Democrats think gun control is political poison. It quotes a bunch of Democrats saying pretty much the same thing. So why are YOU still pushing for more gun control? "Poison pill", anybody?

Is your goal really to see that DEMOCRATS don't get elected? Because that's EXACTLY what it sounds like....

[MrBenchley]

9. Hand us another laugh

If you think Republicans are such hot shit...join them.

The poll this article cites say 85% of voters want MORE gun control laws or no loosening of existing laws...and you want to line up with the other 15%.

[Moosenose]

17. Give us a link...

because the article says "Surveys continue to show the public is divided over the gun issue. Gallup regularly surveys people about gun laws, and in October it found that just over half wanted stricter laws, while 47 percent wanted less strict laws or keeping the laws as they are." It doesn't say 85% ANYWHERE.

As for joining the Repukes, no thanks. I want MORE Democrats in office. You, on the other hand, seem to be pushing a "no compromise" attitude that GUARANTEES fewer Dems in Office.

[MrBenchley]

32. Go back to post #2

Where I linked to the summary of the actual Gallup study that showed just 15% want gun control laws relaxed.

I'm not going to pay money for the actual copy....if you want to feel free.

"I want MORE Democrats in office."
And yet you pimp for Republican policies.

[Moosenose]

35. sorry...

that's an invalid link. It pulls up an error message. try again.

[MrBenchley]

38. Then do this

Go to Gallup.com. Go to siue search.. Put in "gun laws" as the term you're searching for. And you'll get the free summary of the article being referenced here, which will tell you that 51% want gun laws made more strict, and 33% want them to remain as strong as they are now, and just 15% want gun laws relaxed.

Then if you want, you can pay the $95 for a subscription to the full article.

[jody]

4. Gore lost because of his anti-RKBA stance. The article quoted,

"Cox of the NRA disputes such talk. If anything, he said, Democrats hurt themselves posing in camouflage for ads or embracing gun owners with their rhetoric after years of voting against their interests."

Fot that reason, any Dem candidate who hopes to win in 04 has to agressively take a pro-RKBA position. None of this "speak softly" BS. A candidate who hopes to win must shout loud enough to make the rafters ring "I will veto any bill that takes away an individual's right to keep and bear arms for defense of self and state".

A candidate must also divorce himself from the Brady Bunch and the Diane Feinsteins who have stated they want to ban handguns or all guns.

[BoatsTwice]

5. Democratics who think espousing platitudes about hunting

is going to convince gun owners that they are serious about not being part of the feared "gun grabber conspiracy" are not going to get very far. I hunt, and I know a lot of gun owners at the range where I sight-in my rifle every fall who say that gun rights have nothing to do with hunting, and they cite self-defense.

Proposals like Gore's handgun registration scheme go right to the heart of gun control opposition and is akin to kicking a hornet nest--all sting and no honey. This is not even to mention that most states permit hunting with handguns of appropriate caliber and that gunowners know that their handguns are not going to be exempted from such initiatives by Democratic candidates posing unconvincingly with a brand new appearing waterfowl shotgun and unworn camo.

[jody]

6. I believe you and I agree, Democrats must agressively

position themselves as supporting RKBA. I agree with you that it is to late for someone like Lieberman to change sides, he and others are hoplessly tarred with their past deeds. That's OK in my book because they were part of a very small, strident group including Feinstein and Kennedy that brought the Dem Party to its present state.

Dean has the most reasonable position among leading candidates because he recognizes that states acknowledged RKBA before they became part of the United States.

Starting before the Constitution and Bill of Rights were written.

"I. That all men are born equally free and independent, and have certain natural, inherent and inalienable rights,
amongst which are, the enjoying and defending life and liberty, acquiring, possessing and protecting property,"
"XIII. That the people have a right to bear arms for the defence of themselves and the state;" (Pa Constitution, 28 Sept. 1776)

Today 28 states recognize an individual's "Right to Keep and Bear Arms" (RKBA) for defense of self and state: AL, AR, CO, CT, DE, FL, IN, KY, MI, MS, MO, MT, NE, NV, NH, NM, ND, OK, OR, PA, SD, TX, UT, VT, WA, WV, WI, WY

Five states recognize an individual's RKBA for the "common defense": AR, KS, MA, OH, TN.

Eleven states say RKBA shall not be infringed": AK, GA, HI, ID, IL, LA, ME, NC, RI, SC, VA.

Six states have no RKBA provision: CA, IA, MD, MN, NJ, NY.

NINTH AMENDMENT: "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people"

[MrBenchley]

10. Uh, Gore won by half a million votes

And isn't in office because of Jeb and five corrupt Supreme Court justices.

"A candidate who hopes to win must shout loud enough to make the rafters ring "I will veto any bill that takes away an individual's right to keep and bear arms for defense of self and state"."
And to hell with public safety.

[slackmaster]

11. Unfortunately too many of those votes were in the wrong states

If he'd had a quarter million fewer in California and a quarter million more in Tennessee or West Virginia, Florida wouldn't have mattered.

[MrBenchley]

12. And if gun nuts couldn't lie

they'd have to be mute.

By the way, Chimpy was also posing as a gun control candidate, touting his gun lock program in Texas and saying he was all for renewing the assault rifle ban. He would have been doing just the opposite if gun control was a liability.

"September 12, 2000
The National Rifle Association decided that they would not endorse George W. Bush for president because they didn’t want to create fodder for Vice President Al Gore to use against Bush.  An NRA official said, “Our goal is to do no harm” to Bush. "

http://www.politicsandelections.com/usa/gossip/#NRA%20Helps%20Bush%20by%20Not%20Endorsing

They didn't do that because gun rights was succh a winning issue now,did they?

[Moosenose]

18. So....

you're presented with an article quoting a fair number of Dems, and a guy from a gun control organization, that says pushing more guns is political suicide, and that many Dems want no part of it, and you still conclude that it's a winning issue to push for more gun control...FASCINATING. I guess all those Dems who say we shouldn't mess with it are closet Republicans, right?

[jody]

20. Moosenose, you still playing in the sandpile with the Head Start kids?

:evilgrin: :silly: :-) :D :7 B-)

[Moosenose]

22. 'fraid so...

what can I say...I'm a masochist... ;-)

[jody]

23. You got that right!

:toast:

[MrBenchley]

27. Yeah, go figure

I actually think for myself instead of swallowing right wing spin.

I also note paragraphs like this:

"Whether Democrats or Republicans advanced their cause based on their position on guns is a disputed question," pollster Celinda Lake said. She cites Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin, where the NRA made big pushes. Gore won all three states, and she maintains that his strong gun control positions helped woo key suburban voters.


"I guess all those Dems who say we shouldn't mess with it are closet Republicans, right?"
You mean like the ones pretending Ted Nugent isn't racist? Or the ones claiming Charlton Heston's call for a lynch mob isn't inciting violence? Or the ones pimping for John AshKKKroft and his version of "gun control"?

[Moosenose]

29. Nope...I mean the ones...

"You mean like the ones pretending Ted Nugent isn't racist? Or the ones claiming Charlton Heston's call for a lynch mob isn't inciting violence? Or the ones pimping for John AshKKKroft and his version of "gun control"?"

quoted in the article...like:

"Connecticut Democrat Joseph I. Lieberman has gotten a bitter taste of how sensitive the issue can be. Gun control groups, which have long regarded him as an ally, are disappointed in his recent comments."

and

""At the end of the day, he buys our agenda. But he's also running away from it," said Blaine Rummel, spokesman for the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence.

Gun control advocates are concerned about more than just Lieberman. "Democrats are nervous about these issues," said Peter Hamm, communications director for the Brady Campaign, "but they really don't need to be.""

and

""I do not support that proposal," Lieberman said in May in response to a question at the South Carolina debate. "I have never supported such a proposal."

But he ran with Gore, it was pointed out.

"Gore came out with that position before I came onto the ticket. The issue never really came up," he said.

Lieberman went on to explain: "American citizens have a right to own firearms." But, he added, that right, like all others, has limits. "

and

"At the South Carolina debate, only the Rev. Al Sharpton said he supported the licensing and registration of handguns."

and


""This attitude has been a real problem in the West," Montana Democratic Chairman Bob Ream said. "

and

""I know there are concerns in large cities, but I want to hear candidates stand up and say they support the Second Amendment," said Edgar Malepeai, vice chairman of the Idaho Democratic Party."

and

"Malepeai heard Missouri Rep. Dick Gephardt say: "I support the right of any law-abiding citizen to own and use firearms for legal purposes. It's important for all of us to say that in our country.""

and

"Virginia Chairman Larry Framme. "Hunting's a very, very important issue," he said."

and

"former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean. "My position is keep the background checks and the ban on assault weapons," he said, "but let states do what they want." With that view, he told the chairmen, "I can run in the West.""

I'd hope you'd get the idea....but know you will pretend not to....but these people don't sound like republicans to me.

[MrBenchley]

31. Gee, read those again

Even Dean is for background checks and an assault weapon ban.

[Moosenose]

33. No, YOU read them again...

NOBODY except Sharpton is pushing for new laws.

This is like your claim that gun control was a WINNING issue for us in 2000 and 2002....it sounds nice, but flies in the face of ALL of the objective evidence. This is why so many people think you're really a Repuke, trying to fuck the Democratic party.

[MrBenchley]

37. Even Dean is pushing background checks and assault weapons ban

And you've yet to explain why, if guns were such a winning issue, the NRA had to hide its endorsement ...or why Spurious George had to pretend he was FOR gun control?

[Moosenose]

39. and you've yet to explain...

why so many anti-gun Dems LOST.

Tell us, which races did the NRA hide their endorsement? Certainly not the Presidential race in 2000...nor the Maryland governor's race in 2002...

Oh, yeah....Dean is supporting the MAINTENANCE OF THE STATUS QUO ONLY...

[jody]

40. The NRA includes a center section tear out in the November issue

of the "American Rifleman" and the "American Hunter" with ratings for candidates for president, congress, governor, and legislative offices.
Ratings range from A+ to F and include ? for failed to reply to a NRA questionnaire. :shrug: I don't know what's hidden about that.

[MrBenchley]

41. Been there, done that

"which races did the NRA hide their endorsement? Certainly not the Presidential race in 2000"
I'll be charitable here and pretend you're NOT lying here, since I showed you the link to that earlier IN THIS SAME THREAD.

"September 12, 2000
The National Rifle Association decided that they would not endorse George W. Bush for president because they didn’t want to create fodder for Vice President Al Gore to use against Bush.  An NRA official said, “Our goal is to do no harm” to Bush. "

http://www.politicsandelections.com/usa/gossip/#NRA%20Helps%20Bush%20by%20Not%20Endorsing

They didn't do that because gun rights was such a winning issue now, did they? 

[Moosenose]

42. If the "we'll have an office in the White House" comment wasn't...

an endorsement, what is?!?!?

[MrBenchley]

45. You mean the quote they DENIED having said?

Boy, there's no spin so desperate that you won't twirl, is there? Any more and you'd get airborne.

[Moosenose]

46. when and where did they deny saying that?

eom

[MrBenchley]

47. Hand us a big frigging laugh....

Are you trying to pretend that this unelected drunk said, "Yeah, that's great! Assault rifles for everybody!"

"Bush distanced himself from the NRA.
"I don't want to disappoint the man, but I'll be setting up shop in the White House," he told reporters at a campaign stop in Mission Viejo, Calif. "It'll be my office, I'll make the decisions as to what goes on in the White House. I'll make it clear what my positions are, and if some people on sides of the issue can't agree, so be it.
"My job is to do what I think is right."
"This is an attempt by my opponent to frighten people," Bush added. "I'm not going to let that happen." "

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/campaign2000/news/Gun_politics_hits_airwaves_as_Bush_and_Gore_trade_barbs.shtml

"Feeling the heat over the boast, a Bush campaign spokesman was quick to deny that their man is close to the NRA, telling the Post, "Neither the NRA or any other special interest sets the governor's agenda." But, says Tumulty, managers will have their work cut out for them keeping the NRA and its supporters at a respectable distance without offending their sensibilities or sealing off their bank accounts."

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,44396,00.html

[kubi]

43. Thank You

You speak the truth. No reason to argue about this anymore.

[MA_firebrand]

13. What do people think?

What would people think if we outlawed hand guns and kept all hunting weapons? After all you cant conceal a rifle, but you can defend yourself in your own home with it. You can also hunt. Hand guns can only be used for killing people, and are oft and easily used in an offensive way. I specifically would like to hear from gun owners on this.

[Moosenose]

19. the second Amendment isn't about duck hunting...

and is far too important a civil right to leave to the "gun nuts".

[Township75]

21. A gun owner's response.

I own a handgun and a rifle; one is for defense, the other for hunting.

While my rifle definetly will kill an intruder, it is not easy to aim or carry in a house. The barrel can become cumbersome in a hallway or going through a doorway. That is why a handgun is so good for self defense.

Furthermore, if you live in condensed housing, you definetly do not want to shoot a rifle, as they are powerful enough to go out of your home into a neighbors.

Also consider that guns aren't just for protecting yourself in your home. They can protect you in your car too. And if one were to get carjacked, imagine trying to grab and aim a rifle as opposed to a handgun. You can also conceal them on you for protection much better than a long gun.

On top of this, if handguns were to be banned, gangsters and other thugs would still get them through the black market. When gun crime didn't drop, politicians would need to appear to be doing something, so they would likely call for all guns to be banned.

[EDT]

25. What comes to mind on this is that the only time I carry a gun is-

on a very expansive tract of my own property. And I am frequently walking in these
woods with my nephews and nieces. A legally concealed handgun allows me to
be able to protect the kids without them knowing it. Strapping a big rifle on
everytime we go into the woods would have them peering nervously in every direction,
thinking there are bears, moose, etc... everywhere, taking away from the
enjoyment of the walk. Having a gun discretely tucked into my pocket on my own
property still allows the kids to enjoy the fun of a walk in the woods, and allows me
to be prepared in the event of a wild encounter that gets dangerous.

[streakr]

34. Hand Guns

I'm new on the list so be kind and don't flame me too harshly!

There are too many hanguns (HG) in circulation so even if you ban them criminals will continue to get them. Look at the problems in Britain.

As a lifelong gun owner I never had much use for a handgun until my pregnant wife was threatened by a drug addict after she observed him stealing from another patient at an inner city dental clinic. For a year I drove her to and from work (I was in graduate school at the time) and carried a 2" .38 S&W given to me by my wife's uncle. Her brother also worked at the clinic as a dentist and carried the same type of HG. I never had to pull it or use it, however. Incidently the perp in this case was found dead of an overdose about a year later.

I practiced with that pistol and enjoyed shooting it and later took up black powder cap & ball shooting, even participating as A Civil war reenactor.

The one time I had to "defend" my family was, after a storm put power and telephone out of commission, three young men tried to get into my house. My trusty Model 870 shotgun was in the closet and taking a few shells I went to the door and cycled the action. There is NO more distinctive sound than the cycling of a shotgun bolt. Needless to say they quickly disappeared. With a wife and two babies (38 and 9 mos of age)in the house I would NOT have hesitated to use that shotgun.

As my children got older I locked up all of the guns and ammo. But I trained each child (3 boys) and many Cub and Boy Scouts in the safe handling of firearms. In 7 years as a Cubmaster and Den Leader I required all of the boys (and some girls) in my dens (mainly Webelos) to watch the NRA Eddie Eagle tapes and then practice using a paintball gun in my backyard (which was literally, a big hit!). Even non-gun owning parents recognized the wisdom of preparing their children for exposure to firearms and I never had a problem with this. During backpacking trips I always carried a lightweight 357 with snake loads and hunting loads because we did run across mountain lions and rattlesnakes, but I never used it. I always advised parents and leaders that I did carry the HG and, in some cases, found out that other parents were armed as well.

The many handguns I now own are either collectible or used for shooting sports (I no longer hunt, unless you count skeets)
Today my two sons living at home (16 and 20) are experienced shooters who often accompany me to Cowboy Action matches. I continue to collect both antique and reproduction Old West/Cowboy firearms even when I already have quite a number. The oldest one is a 1st model Smith and Wesson made in late 1859 or early 1860; it is shootable and I do shoot it. As long as I can afford to I will continue to collect and shoot my firarms.

I have a concealed carry permit but mainly to allow me to buy without a waiting period. I have a Glock hidden in the house and the shotgun in the bedroom but my 80 pound mutt is a far better deterent.

Handguns are not inherently evil and fill a niche that other firearms cannot.

streakr

[jhfenton]

36. Handguns

For the most part I can only repeat what others have already added.

I have rifles, a shotgun, and several handguns. I use all my firearms for self-defense and recreation. I don't hunt with any of them.

I shoot my handguns both competitively and for fun. (Check out the Glock Sports Shooting Federation and the International Defensive Pistol Association for my two favorite organizations.)

I also have a permit to carry a concealed weapon and do so daily.

We have problems with crime in many urban pockets of this country. That crimes are committed with firearms is a symptom of the underlying problem. The firearms are not the cause of the problem. Restrictive gun laws do nothing to address the problem.

[MA_firebrand]

14. what do you guys think?

What would people think if we outlawed hand guns and kept all hunting weapons? After all you cant conceal a rifle, but you can defend yourself in your own home with it. You can also hunt. Hand guns can only be used for killing people, and are oft and easily used in an offensive way. I specifically would like to hear from gun owners on this.

[BoatsTwice]

15. It appears, Mr. Benchley aside, that a handgun ban is not favored

by the electorate at large. I also think it, like any other ban, would only ban them from those who'd be inclined to obey the ban anyways.

We cannot stop tons of drugs being illicitly imported today. International criminal enterprises would have little trouble providing handguns to domestic criminals.

And all that is required to conceal a rifle or a shotgun is a hacksaw.

[jody]

16. Sorry but handguns are used for competition, hunting, plinking as

well as self defense.

[solinvictus]

48. Hand gun vs. rifle

The problem with the rifle in urban areas is that the vast majority of rifle calibers would overpenetrate if fired. Rifle rounds are of a much higher velocity than pistols and could unintentionally harm someone in the path of fire. Pistols, on the other hand, have rounds manufactured that will not even penetrate drywall, but are highly effective for self-defense. Someone else pointed out the portability issues with a rifle for home defense. In a rural area, rifles are suited well for that purpose.

[Aboli]

24. gunzzz

If you are BLACK and favor gun control then YOU are one step closer to slavery. The rebs said no guns for slaves,black leaders say no guns for african americans??? So whats up? Im a FREE MAN and im gonna keep my guns and im gonna keep my freedom.No Kracker gun laws, Dem or roscopublikan gun laws...

[Axman]

26. I'm not sure how to take that.

I've never thought about the matter that way. Let me ask you something..... How do we deal with the problem of violence in the black community which is a much more prevelant problem than in the white community? I've struggled with this question for a long time.

[jody]

30. At least you, I, and Democrats pose the question and seek a solution

but AWOL, neo-cons, and Republicans ignore the issue or say "why don't they just get a job and move to a different community".

The party of Abe, Teddy, and Ike has become a party of "greed, selfishness, and repression".

[Axman]

44. For me, moving to a different area

wasn't an option for a very long time. My family was poor and we lived in an okay neighborhood but things began to turn ugly in the eighties. Most of the kids there turned to gangs and many got killed. I was lucky, my father made me get a good education and I was able to move to a much nicer area. He kept me out of the gangs and away from the violence. Though the violence did hit close to home a few times.

[Name removed]

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