Editorial: Mexican cartels support 2nd Amendment rights

[Bragi]

Guns move south, as drugs move north
From Thursday's Globe and Mail
Published Wednesday, Mar. 02, 2011 7:30PM EST

The attack by the Los Zetas drug cartel on Jaime Zapata on Feb. 15 was the most high-profile killing of a U.S. special agent on Mexican soil in 25 years.

News that the murder weapon came from a dealer in Mr. Zapata’s home state of Texas reveals how the cross-border gun trade is undermining continental security. The implications of lax U.S. gun laws in equipping an army of criminals should also be of great concern to Canada...

Mexico is a transit zone for drugs destined for the U.S. and Canada. Meanwhile, an “iron river” of weapons flows south from the U.S. While Mexico has very restrictive gun-ownership laws, U.S. gun retailers – there are 3,800 in Texas alone – are arming Mexico’s drug traffickers. Ninety per cent of all weapons seized from cartels, and sent for tracking to the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, come from the U.S. Many are acquired through “straw purchases” – buying a gun for someone who is prohibited from owning one.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/editorials/guns-move-south-as-drugs-move-north/article1927416/

[jpak]

1. K&R The NRA and the GOP need to let Obama and the ATF shut down border gunrunners

shut up and get out of the way

yup

[Bragi]

3. Yep, need to keep the guns at home to fight tryanny /nt

[Remmah2]

21. Firearms are as useless as a fire extinguisher. nt

nt

[Katya Mullethov]

23. That is only an option

Kinda like cutting off your own leg with a pocket knife in order to save your life . Not an option anyone would like to have to exercise , but it really is nice to have a pocket knife when you need one .

[armueller2001]

25. How is the NRA

Preventing law enforcement from shutting down gun runners? Last I checked, straw purchases were still illegal as well as "gunrunning".

Please elaborate.

[jpak]

36. The NRA lobbies the GOP to do their bidding and pays them handsomely for their votes

The NRA ordered the GOP House to vote to prevent Obama and the ATF from monitoring multiple gun sales in border states.

GOP= NRA lapdogs

yup

[lawodevolution]

34. arm up the mexican people and let them loose against the drug cartels and their corrupt government.

[Katya Mullethov]

35. Agents Burnahm and Bagham will handle it

What could go wrong ?

[shadowrider]

2. And the BATFE had nothing to do with this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x373855

[Bragi]

4. Feel free to explain what you're talking about

Otherwise, here's my detailed response to you:

http://books.google.com/books?id=DPBQIUM4MI8C&printsec=frontcover&dq=ethics&hl=en&ei=AqRvTbjGEMqatwfWx8T6Dg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

Get back to me once you've digested it.

- B

[Remmah2]

17. Detailed response.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=project+gunwalker&cp=10&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbs=nws:1&source=og&sa=N&tab=wn&bav=on.2,or.&fp=b759258933c9c334

[Remmah2]

18. The following can also be added.

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&tbs=nws:1&q=project+gunrunner&aq=0&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=project+gunrunner&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.&fp=b759258933c9c334

[Katya Mullethov]

20. And yet more

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=INSTITUTIONAL+++PERJURY+&aq=f&aqi=g-b1&aql=&oq=INSTITUTIONAL+++PERJURY+&fp=670dc91117bfbc1a

Did Aristotle have any opinions on the ethics of appropriations theatre ?

[GreenStormCloud]

5. Simple solution. Legalize drugs. N/T

[sharesunited]

6. More guns AND drugs? That doesn't sound right.

[Katya Mullethov]

7. drugs cause ..... guns cause

"Booze makes you " . Its what we call "magic" !

[sharesunited]

8. With booze and drugs, you only do it to yourself.

With guns on the other hand...

[Katya Mullethov]

9. One of the classical definitions of a fetish

[shadowrider]

11. Wrong. Thousands upon thousands are killed in Mexico to bring drugs

across the border.

You only do it to yourself, yea, right.

[Callisto32]

14. Really.

Look up DUI injury/death numbers...for the people that weren't drinking.

[Remmah2]

24. Lots of DUI and DWI deaths.

I don't think they're doing it to themselves.

Then there's the fallout of having an alcoholic or drug addict in the family. Failed liver, mental illness, public health costs, stolen property.

I would say that there is a large general flaw in your logic and assumptions.

[X_Digger]

31. Tell that to the drunk driver's victims. *sigh* n/t

[sharesunited]

39. Driving drunk is driving. Drunk.

[X_Digger]

40. I remind you.. " With booze and drugs, you only do it to yourself."

Care to retract your ill-thought-out statement?

[sharesunited]

42. If you care to include falling asleep at the wheel.

[Ken_Fish]

45. No being over .08 (or 3x that) and killing someone is depraved indifference murder.

drinking and driving is the SAME as randomly firing a gun. You probably will not hit anyone, but if you do, you own it. Every person knows that it is reckless and potentially lethal when they do something like that.

It is THE SAME for both actions.. No one wants to grow up and own their actions anymore.

[sharesunited]

52. Randomly firing or having it available in one's hand to fire?

Any time we say it is okay for you or anyone to have it in your hand, we are saying it is okay for you to decide.

And as demonstrated, we don't know you the way we think we know you, or how you claim to be.

So why should you empower us with the means to allow YOU to conveniently kill us?

Because you mistakenly think it is guaranteed to you under the Constitution.

Well then, you are misreading the Constitution.

[Ken_Fish]

55. Again antis lost. Just like the wade and board, dealing with that reality

will be part of the future for that side.

I dont think I have numbers showing ccw holders as a group offend less than police, two supreme court cases, and the actions of BOTH political parties showing gun control is done.

I KNOW these things because they are backed with facts, not feelings.

Wake up you can be killed by numerous things (gonna ban knives), but in reality bacon will probably kill you.

Its over, move on.

[Ken_Fish]

41. Dead is dead. The person who has to bury the victim has the same process(nt)

[sharesunited]

43. Grieving and loss, yes. Intention on the part of the person causing the loss, no.

If intention doesn't matter, then throw out the entire penal code.

[Ken_Fish]

44. If I KNOWINGLY get in my car piss drunk and kill a person

with depraved indifference how is that ANY different than me firing a gun and hitting the wrong person (ie gang bangers shooting a kid)

DWI is almost always depraved indifference murder. IE murder 2.

Depraved Indifference is in the penal code...

[sharesunited]

46. Driving is the difference. Remember what this devolves from. Alcohol is something you consume.

Bullets are something introduced into you without your consent.

Big difference.

[Ken_Fish]

47. No introducing the bumper of my car to a guy on a motorcycle at 80 mph while DWI

uses the EXACT same physics to destroy that life. I DECIDE TO DRINK that makes ME responsible for my actions. He is just as dead as a gun "accident". His mother will cry just as much, his kids will still have no dad. WTF if the difference?

Your analysis is failed.

[Ken_Fish]

49. (here is where someone could post a rebuttal to that statement^)

[sharesunited]

50. Here's the difference. If you want me to say it out loud.

The drunk driver doesn't want you to die or be injured by his recklessness.

The gunman wants someone to die. He hopes it is whom he intends.

You don't see a big difference?

I sure do.

[Ken_Fish]

53. Not a bit. Hey i get all drunk and kill aperson its just an accident. Fire a gun in a crowd

accident. I just intended to see if it worked. I may have NO INTENT to kill anyone by my actions on their face show depraved indifference for human life.

Sorry the 4 DWI convicted guy who plows his car into a family of 6 and kills this is THE SAME as a person who shoots random people on a subway.

[X_Digger]

48. Are the victims of one less dead than the other? n/t

[sharesunited]

51. The measure is not how dead they are. The measure is how they lost their lives in the first place.

[Ken_Fish]

54. All depends on the law. Murder with a knife, gun, or piano

result in the same body. The PERSON committing the crime is the ONLY responsible party.

[sharesunited]

58. AIn the case of guns, the company which made it and the store which sold it should be included.

[TheWraith]

33. Apparently you've never heard of drunk driving.

You know, the misuse of a legal right for illegal purposes. Kind of like shooting an innocent person.

[armueller2001]

57. Actually legalizing or at least decriminalizing

drugs would probably result in less criminals, and less guns in criminal hands. Remember prohibition in the US? Didn't exactly work and crime skyrocketed due to the financial incentives of the illegal liquor trade. Same concept.

[WatsonT]

10. Likewise I'm sure many criminals support the 4th and 5th amendments as well

I'm not willing to give those up either, even if it annoys some drug dealers.

Oh and the first is really popular with neo-nazis and the westboro folks. Just FYI.

[Union Scribe]

12. That's adorable. Also, terrorists love the TSA not molesting people

because it makes it easier for them, ergo, I must support the TSA molesting people. See how freedom can be so easily drained away by the proper framing?

[Atypical Liberal]

13. I don't care.

Once again, I am not going to allow the actions of criminals, certainly not the actions of drug cartels to be used as an excuse to curtail my constitutional right to keep and bear arms.

[Callisto32]

15. Solution.

Restore self-ownership.

[AtheistCrusader]

16. They also love the 'war on drugs'. Makes their commodity fetch collectors prices.

Which gives them all sorts of incentive to intitiate violence, which leads to them trying to acquire guns illegally, etc.

[slackmaster]

19. What does this stupid crap have to do with the RKBA or use of guns for self-defense?

:nuke:

[Bragi]

22. The cartel needs US guns for defense and offense /nt

[rrneck]

26. So does everybody. What's your point? nt

[WatsonT]

27. It shows how desperate and shallow the anti-gun argument is

Criminals like this! It must be bad.

They also like the concept of trial by jury, having access to a lawyer, the right to an appeal, efforts to curb police brutality, and limits on how evidence can be collected.

Likewise Fred Phelps is a big fan of the first amendment.

[PavePusher]

29. Damnit, that's the third keyboard cleaning this week....! n/t

[rl6214]

28. This BS again?

I thought all this bullshit had been debunked to everyones satisfaction, yet it keeps getting brought back to life. What a load of crap.

[X_Digger]

30. Close but no cigar..

Ninety per cent of all weapons seized from cartels, and sent for tracking to the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, come from the U.S.

That should read "90% of those weapons that were seized, sent for tracing, and could be traced".

See the difference? Let's say there were 1000 weapons seized. Let's say that only 100 appear to be of US origin, and were sent to the US to be traced. Lets say that 10 could actually be traced. Of those 10, 1 (90% of those 'seized, sent to the US, that could be traced') came from the US.

If you look at the GAO report on gun traces, you'll see the real math.

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d09781t.pdf

The total guns traced in 2009 back to the US? 4,449. Total seized in the last 3 years? some 75,000.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2010/05/mexican_president_challenges_c.html

[pipoman]

32. Yep, they support them in the US and absolutely love the prohibition in Mexico

as gangsters and criminals would love prohibition here in the US.

[cleanhippie]

37. Of course they do, especially when the ATF allows the guns to get down there!

[rl6214]

38. Straight from the ATF

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/03/03/eveningnews/main20039031.shtml?tag=stack

[Euromutt]

56. There's the "ninety per cent" canard again

Ninety per cent of all weapons seized from cartels, and sent for tracking to the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, come from the U.S. Many are acquired through “straw purchases” – buying a gun for someone who is prohibited from owning one.

Once again, it's ninety percent of the weapons that are:
a) seized from narcotraficantes,
b) submitted to the ATF for tracing and
c) which the ATF actually manages to trace.
Of guns that meet all three of those conditions, 90% are traced to U.S. sources. But that's a bit tautological, given that the ATF can by definition only retain data on weapons that have legally passed through the U.S. at some juncture; if a firearm didn't pass through the American FFL system, there's no reason the ATF should be able to trace it. So if anything, it's surprising the percentage isn't closer to 100%. Presumably, the remained of traced guns came from non-U.S. manufacturers who have American-based subsidiaries (e.g. FNH, Beretta, Glock, H&K).

And most importantly, the firearms that meet all three criteria form a fraction of the guns seized.