Editorial: Avoid hysteria on campus guns (Texas)

[shadowrider]

Allowing guns inside public college classrooms might seem anathema to an academic setting.

But the time has come to rethink the longstanding prohibition.

State Sen. Jeff Wentworth, R-San Antonio, has proposed legislation that would allow anyone licensed to carry a concealed handgun to take that weapon with them into a college classroom.

--snip--

"It is a right" for people to carry weapons, "and people are exercising their right," Seliger said.

Seliger predicted that a decade from now, Texans will look upon the idea of students and faculty carrying guns into the classroom the same way many view the current concealed handgun carry law. It will be largely accepted as a way of life.

State law requires Texans to be 21 years or older; it also requires them to have no criminal record. The state issues permits after individuals complete a 10-hour gun safety class. It's not a system that grants permit to just anyone who wants to carry a gun under their jacket or in their purse.

Would these weapons turn public college and university campuses into shooting galleries?

No more than the concealed-handgun carry law has produced such a result anywhere else.

http://amarillo.com/opinion/editorial/2011-02-27/editorial-avoid-hysteria-campus-guns

[Buzz Clik]

1. I teach in a college classroom. I own firearms. I don't want them in my class.

The current system is fine, thank you. We have multiple shootings involving students on and around campus every semester, none of them in the classroom. I'd like to keep it that way.

[oneshooter]

2. Those " gunbuster" signs not working?

A gun free environment can be had on campus. Just add a few fences, some metal detectors, TSA style pat downs, armed patrols, spot checks on students and staff. Even then there are no guarantees. Are you willing to give up some of your pay check for this? Or just add it to the cost of a college education?

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[Buzz Clik]

3. Not necessary. I don't work in a battle zone. It's a university.

I don't understand your post in the slightest.

[oneshooter]

4. Just a sign does nothing to stop a person from entering

with a weapon. To insure a "gun free environment" there must be enforcement of these signs. You probably have students carrying onto campus illegally now. Why? Because there is nothing to stop them. The campus police are like all police, they are a reactive only force. Something has to go wrong before they can do anything, and that is mostly take a report and do the chalk outline thing.
The law,as written, will allow CHL holders to carry on campus. To get a Texas CHL you must be 21, undergo a Federal and State background check, attended a 10hr class that covers the CHL law, self defense laws in Texas, and confrontation avoidance. A 50rd shooting test is given and you must make a 70% or higher score.

More here: http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/relatedlaws.htm

Colorado, Washington State and Utah allow CCL on campus. How many classroom slaughters have you heard of from there?


Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[Buzz Clik]

6. Sorry, but I'm not interested in having legal, concealed weapons in my classroom.

I feel no threat from whatever small number of illegal weapons there may be, and I'd feel no safer knowing that the kids and I were packing. In fact, I'd find it horribly unnecessary and far more threatening.

If you want to carry a weapon, do so. We have a ban on guns on our campus and there is no interest in changing that. Thank God!

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

7. Go flip burgers then...

I'm not interested in our universities employing educators who are not liberal enough to respect all of our civil rights.

[Buzz Clik]

10. Welcome to America. You must be new.

Let me explain: Certain rights are guaranteed by the Constitution, but most rights are left to the states to figure out. Very often, the state chooses to not dabble in certain issues and allows local governments, businesses, and other entities to make the rules.

Even for those rights that are very clearly outlined in the Constitution (the right to vote, freedom of the press, etc), there are limits and exceptions. The classic example is you cannot yell, "Fire!" in a crowded room and expect no ramifications. You might even get arrested. You cannot practice your religion everywhere, and your right to vote can be revoked.

So, even though the Bill of Rights says that US citizens have the right to bear arms, there are limitations that are trickle down to states, municipalities, and other entities. The court system (and ultimately the Supreme Court) oversees all of this to make sure that all the laws and regulations are consistent with the Constitution. Thus, my university is perfectly within its rights to ban firearms from my campus in my state. We like it that way. Even though you don't like it, I don't have to care because you don't live here or go to school here. I most certainly am free to quit my job and work for McDonalds, but I will not do so just because some misguided poster on a discussion board is unfamiliar with the laws of this country.

I hope that helps.

Educating the uneducated is part of my job, but others need my help right now. Have a wonderful day, and good luck with your dream.

[rl6214]

35. So, when the state you are employed by as an instructor

decides to use it's powers to allow guns on campus, what are you going to do then?

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

12. I find it it odd that you feel LESS threat from illegal weapons than you would

from legal ones. What does it say about our society that it would devolve to that way of thinking.

[Buzz Clik]

13. You aren't seeing this clearly:

We have NO weapons on our campus. If carrying firearms on campus became legal, we'd have lots of weapons in the classrooms. No weapons is a good number.

If our campus were filled with criminals who spent the day preying on the unprotected, then this discussion would be different. As it stands, gun violence on campus is rare, and it should stay that way. (The administration is also working to reconfigure the campus to allow for the banning of vehicles. That, too, is a step in the right direction.)

[shadowrider]

14. Here, let me fix your statement for you

We have NO weapons on our campus that we can see. There is no way of knowing how many there really are because they're concealed

Unless you have a search of everyone coming onto that campus, your statement of no weapons doesn't add up.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

15. would you care to clarify your statement...

"...I feel no threat from whatever small number of illegal weapons there may be..."

what did you mean by that comment?

[Buzz Clik]

16. Exactly what I said.

One of the posters on this thread automatically assumed that I am terrified of firearms, which I am not. Having legal, concealed weapons on this campus is totally unnecessary, and the desire to carry on campus stems from fear. It's ironic and very amusing that I was accused of being afraid when the opposite is true.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

18. I find it amusing that you spin it this way ...

and my statement about the de-evolution about society stands. You made a sad commentary and while you may not recognize it as such, I do.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

31. just complicated and capable of dichotomous human emotion is all --

something you seem not capable. That I find your spin amusing and your origainal commentary to be sad is really not beyond you, is it? Rhetorical question and requires no thought or answer on your part.
Have a good day.

[cleanhippie]

21. But "those few illegal weapons there may be" are the ones that are used in school shootings.

[Buzz Clik]

26. That's because they are all illegal on campus.

Jesus Christ. What is it with you people?

[cleanhippie]

28. I think you should ask YOURSELF that question.

Unless your point-getter is broken, you are being obtuse.

[cleanhippie]

20. Yes, you DO have weapons on your campus.

You just don't know about them. ALL the campuses where shootings occurred were GUN FREE ZONES! How can you be so willfully BLIND to the facts here?

[TPaine7]

22. I think there is a logical flaw in your thinking

We have NO weapons on our campus.... No weapons is a good number....

As it stands, gun violence on campus is rare, and it should stay that way.

You simultaneously hold two irreconcilable thoughts. If there were indeed NO weapons on campus, gun violence would be impossible--NOT merely rare.

There are guns on campus now. Even criminals carry more than they shoot; you have no real idea how many people carry. You only know the policy. You accept with blind faith that the policy is being followed completely--at least when it suits your argument.

However, if gun carriage were permitted by policy, a very dangerous class of people could also carry--people of full majority, clean records certified by the FBI, and trained in the use of deadly force. These dangerous folks are the real threat, not criminals of unknown numbers who currently violate policy.

Obviously, the people we can trust are the criminals. The threat is the people with perfect records and training. And while there are NO weapons on campus for the purposes of one side of the argument, RARE (not non-existent) gun crimes will doubtless increase if we allow the truly dangerous folks to carry as well.

Just out of curiosity, Buzz Clik, what do you teach?

[Common Sense Party]

29. Three irreconcilable thoughts. The prof also said upthread:

"We have multiple shootings involving students on and around campus every semester"

How do they have "MULTIPLE shootings" on campus when there are "NO weapons on our campus" and "gun violence on campus is RARE"?

Does not compute.

[TPaine7]

32. Good point...

I missed that one.

It's hard to keep up, sometimes, with the mutually exclusive positions taken by rights opponents.

[PavePusher]

33. "believe three impossible things before breakfast"

http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/Quotations/Dodgson.html

[rl6214]

36. "...I feel no threat from whatever small number of illegal weapons there may be..."

Care to decide which statement you made is the one you really want to go with?

"We have NO weapons on our campus."

"...I feel no threat from whatever small number of illegal weapons there may be..."

[oneshooter]

37. I wish that you would make up your mind.

And stick to only one story!

"We have multiple shootings involving students on and around campus every semester"

"We have NO weapons on our campus"

Seems somewhat confusing.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[cleanhippie]

17. Its not about YOUR safety.

Its about INDIVIDUAL safety. Just because YOU "feel no threat from whatever small number of illegal weapons there may be", others, in light of the many campus shooting that have taken place, DO feel threatened by them, and wish to take all LEGAL measures to protect themselves.
This is about the individual RIGHT to self-defense and protection, not YOUR "feelings". As a liberal college teacher, I would hope you understand that.

[speltwon]

23. You FEELno threat, you FEEL no safer

This is usually what we see in response to this kind of legislation. It's not about feelings. It's about statistical reality. Do you have any reason, based on evidence (compare statistics in states that allow CCW on campus) to have this apprehension? If it is NOT evidence based, then it's baseless. Why should a baseless fear affect others' rights.

[rl6214]

34. Actually there is a LOT of interest in changing that

You just happen to be on the losing side.

[GreenStormCloud]

38. There is great interest in changing that and it is about to change.

Learn to live with it.

[AtheistCrusader]

25. It's not a battle zone till some scumbag like Seung-Hui Cho comes a-knocking.

If you want to keep guns out of the hands of bad guys: Keep them in yours.

Question: As an educator, do you feel your students trust you with their mental well-being? Why not their physical well-being while in your class?

[krispos42]

5. And what stopped those shooting from occuring in the classroom?

:shrug:


Good luck, unless I miss my guess.

Students don't carry to quibble with you over a grade. They carry because alone outside of the classroom there could be trouble. Getting to and from your class, through parking lots and whatever else is out there.

Honestly, you could have a gun-check area in every classroom if you wanted too, where students could lock up their handguns during the class. Students would still carry, because it's not really about your or your class.

[PavePusher]

8. Any of those by people carrying otherwise legally?

I'm betting... not.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

19. Vague, insulting reply is vague and insulting

How about some hard information or an otherwise meaningful reply, Buzz?

[Common Sense Party]

30. I'm not sure I follow you--you contradict yourself:

"We have multiple shootings involving students on and around campus every semester"

How do you have "MULTIPLE shootings" on campus when there are "NO weapons on our campus" and "gun violence on campus is RARE"?

Does not compute.

[DWC]

24. In the real world

Crazies and Crooks do not care about the law, rules, signs, or any other effort to maintain a peaceful, violence-free society.

Mature, Honest Citizens make every effort to comply with those restrictions except when they affect one's potential, perceived, or actual self-preservation.

There are very real threats to self-preservation even on college campuses.

Any Mature, Honest Citizens unwilling to defend themselves against those threats are free to make that choice and face its consequences.

Any Mature, Honest Citizens determined to defend themselves against those threats are free to make that choice and face its consequences.

This is a matter of Free Will. No law can change that fact.

I am personally proud that the State of Texas and others are finally recognizing those facts.

Semper Fi,