Goshen first-grader killed in accidental shooting

[KansasVoter]

Such a sad story. And an easy solution. Don't carry a damn gun around in your pocket around your kids.

http://www.southbendtribune.com/article/20110227/News01/102270357/-1/googleNews

The saddest part is.......

But when Jay Byler turned to help Brooklyn take off her snow gear, a gun that he had taken from his truck and placed in his coat pocket to safely secure in their house, apparently dropped out of his pocket and discharged.

A bullet struck Karlee in her head and she died.

So, for the extremely remote chance that he might have a home invasion, this child died. Being Paranoid caused this death.

[cleanhippie]

1. No, his negligence caused this death.

There is no such thing as an "accidental" discharge. Guns do not fire themselves.

[inademv]

2. Also it's called a holster

get one of you're going to own a gun.

[jberryhill]

12. Ah, well, then it's "lesson learned" for that family

[inademv]

28. Philosphical question

What would one be identified as if they were to endeavor to make it so that a family would never have to learn this lesson?

[cleanhippie]

36. Depends on what the endeavor consisted of.

[petronius]

38. A firearms safety instructor? A responsible gun-owner? An advocate for common-sense?

One thing that seems common to these horror-stories of child death - whether it's being left in a car, or drowning in a pool, or being mauled by a pet, or finding a gun, etc - is that all the tools and information to avoid it (the "lesson") have been long available. The one thing that can't be completely educated away is human nature, lapses of attention, and the belief that "it can never happen to me."

Terrible story, and I feel for the parents...

[jberryhill]

45. A Darwinist?

[Atypical Liberal]

117. Indeed it was.

I'm reminded of this demotivational poster:

[SecularMotion]

26. Accidental discharge

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidental_discharge

[cleanhippie]

34. Any Range instructor will tell you its "negligent discharge"

Thats how I, as a gun owner, see it anyway.

[SecularMotion]

42. Negligence is the cause of many accidents

but they're still called accidents.

[speltwon]

137. Not according to NHTSA

They don't refer to "accidents". They refer to "collisions" specifically for the reason that there is often, if not usually, considerable human error and even negligence.

[pnwmom]

54. You're splitting semantic hairs. n/t

[Euromutt]

108. Responsible gun owners insist on "negligent discharge" for a reason

As Simon Pegg's character in Hot Fuzz put it, "'accident' implies there's nobody to blame." By insisting on the term "negligent discharge" rather than "accidental discharge," gun owners constantly remind themselves and others that guns don't just go off by themselves; they don't happen to you, you make them happen. And you make them happen by fucking up and violating at least one of Cooper's Four Rules. Unintentional discharges that result in someone getting hurt are the result of really fucking up and breaking two or three of Cooper's Four Rules.

[pnwmom]

111. This gives gun owners a false sense of control.

Accidents can happen to anyone, even responsible people. Being responsible can improve your odds, but doesn't eliminate the possibility of an accident.

[Euromutt]

113. I don't see how that follows

How does it give you "a false sense of control" to be reminded that you, and only you, are responsible for the safe handling of your firearm? That if that firearm discharges when you didn't intend for it to do so, it's because you did something wrong?

[pnwmom]

124. Because it implies that someone can always control their gun handling

and never have an accident.

[Euromutt]

126. If you're in a situation where you think you might lose control of the weapon...

...unload it. At least clear the chamber. It's a standard instruction in hunters' education, when climbing trees or negotiating obstacles like fences and streams. If you're hunting particular game from a relatively fixed position, like a treestand or duck blind, it's a good idea to leave your weapon unloaded until you're in that position, and clear it prior to moving to a different position.

When you're transporting firearms, as opposed to carrying for self-defense, unload them. Chamber flags (like these http://secure.armorholdings.com/kleen-bore/allproducts.html#136 ) aren't expensive.

If you carry a handgun for self-defense, get a good holster, one with decent retention and that covers the trigger guard.

Preventing negligent discharges isn't rocket science. What's the old slogan again? "Safety is no accident." Sure, you can always think up freak scenarios, but almost all of the time, unintentional discharges are preventable by following the safety rules.

[AtheistCrusader]

128. Keeping my streak alive.

I don't have accidents.

[Union Scribe]

135. When can they not?

[cleanhippie]

122. You obviouslyt have NEVER fired a gun or had ANY experience with one.

While I respect your right to voice your opinion, you are making statements based on ignorance.

[Union Scribe]

134. Lol, no.

But I do like this world you've invented where inanimate objects can turn on their masters like some Stephen King novel. I can see where that serves your argument, but it isn't remotely real.

[pnwmom]

53. A dropped gun can fire, and that would be an accident. For example,

you're holding a gun, a dog bumps into you from behind -- and you drop it.

No human negligence, just an accident.

[ManiacJoe]

72. Modern, maintained guns do not do that.

[Euromutt]

109. Modern handguns are "drop safe" but not all long guns

Quite a few shotguns don't have firing pin safeties, and slamming one on its butt with a round in the chamber can cause a discharge. Of course, then the negligence lies in having a round chambered with a weapon that you know--or damn well should know--can do that.

[AzNick]

110. No, all guns can do that

"Maintained" or not, cocked or not.

If a round is in the chamber, the firing pin can bounce and hit the primer.

Most likely, it was either a revolver or a cocked pistol, probably condition 1. In this case, it is likely that the sear bounced off the spring and release the firing pin.

A pistol without a round in the chamber is of course not likely to discharge.

My kids never see my handguns, but that's because I am divorced and I only shoot when on my "off" time.

FYI non-maintained guns are likely to *not* fire, feed or eject, not the opposite.

[X_Digger]

119. Most modern firearms have firing pin blocks or transfer bars.

I can use the hammer of my S&W to drive a nail with a round in the chamber, and the transfer bar will prevent the firing pin from touching the primer.

A 'non-maintained firearm' likely refers to one where the firing pin channel is dirty, which can cause the firing pin to not fully retract.

[AzNick]

136. Not all guns are equipped with that...

My Hi-Point is not equipped with one :)

I know, it's only a $140 POS but it shoots pretty darn well!

My Buck Mark does not have it either. I am pretty sure the firing pin can be released if I drop it enough.

Ok, it's a 22LR, but remember that this is the caliber with the most accidental deaths attached to it.

By the way, what gun did he have?

Now, my Taurus 1911, it's a different story.

[speltwon]

138. That's false

A glock CANNOT fire because it was dropped. It is not possible. Unless you live in some magical world where the rules of physics do not apply, that is...

See: drop safety. Glocks have them

[cleanhippie]

93. No they do not.

You obviously do not own or know about modern guns. It just doesnt happen by "accident". ever.

[pnwmom]

112. This gun owner disagrees with you.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=384849&mesg_id=385358

And the description in the OP is clearly a description of an accident -- an unintentional act. Or do you think this gun owner purposely shot his child?

"But when Jay Byler turned to help Brooklyn take off her snow gear, a gun that he had taken from his truck and placed in his coat pocket to safely secure in their house, apparently dropped out of his pocket and discharged.

"A bullet struck Karlee in her head and she died."

[Euromutt]

114. There are a couple of possible explanations

One possibility is that the weapon was over thirty years old; firing pin blocks, hammer blocks and transfer bars became standard on handguns during the late 1970s/early 1980s.

Another--and in my opinion more plausible--possibility is that when the gun dropped out of Mr. Byler's pocket, he tried to catch as it fell, and accidentally snagged the trigger, thus causing it to discharge. Note that the article does not say the gun discharged as a result of hitting the ground.

[pnwmom]

123. Okay, your scenario would still be an accident. n/t

[AtheistCrusader]

131. No, it would be negligence.

Any firearms trainer will stress never to fumble with a falling firearm. Never, ever.

It is designed not to fire on impact. If you grabby for it, you will likely fire it.

[cleanhippie]

121. Are YOU a gun owner?

Seriously. Do you own a gun? Have you ever had ANY training or experience with a gun?

[AtheistCrusader]

130. He was negligent in leaving a round in the chamber, on a weapon that does not

have the proper drop-test safeties to prevent this situation.

You might normally think of a safety as a level on the side of the gun that allows it to fire, when moved to a particular position.

My concealed carry gun has 3 internal safeties that you never see move, that prevent the discharge of the weapon unless a hand is firmly welded to the grip, and the trigger is properly pulled. I can drop it on the ground all day, throw it at the ground as hard as I can, and it will never fire.

Most firearms manufacturers will put their pistols in the equivalent of a clothes dryer tumbler for days to pass the drop test certification.

[Atypical Liberal]

118. Yes, accidents to happen.

But 99.9% of the time, when a firearm goes off unintentionally, it's because the person holding it was not following the basic rules of firearm safety:

1) Treat every firearm as if it were loaded.
2) Never point the firearm at anything you do not want to destroy.
3) Keep your finger off of the trigger until you are ready to shoot.
4) Never shoot until you have identified your target and what lies behind it.

Can true "accidents" happen, where no one is truly at fault? Sure.

But this incident in the original posting was not an accident. The father was at fault at least for not carrying his firearm in a secure manner. I personally fault him for having firearms around children with a round chambered.

[AtheistCrusader]

129. Wrong.

Multiple failures.

The firearm will generally have safety mechanisms to prevent this.

For older revolvers that do not have such safeties, keeping an empty chamber under the hammer is the generally proscribed solution.

At no point is it 'beyond the control' of the firearm's owner, to prevent a discharge of the weapon.

[RSillsbee]

3. What does this anecdotal current events piece have to do with

Discussion of gun-related public policy issues or the use of firearms for self-defense belong in the Guns Forum?

[jpak]

7. The GOP/NRA is undertaking a nationwide campaign to allow guns in schools/diners/churches/etc.

The more guns carried in public - the more innocents will die

yup

[RSillsbee]

13. Here in Colorado guns

guns ARE allowed in schools,(colleges) churches(bet the folks at New Life were damn glad jeanne Assam had one) and diners.

I carried a gun every day in college and no one even knew.

Where's the blood in the streets?

[jpak]

50. There is blood in the streets of Colorado

yup

[RSillsbee]

51. Donde? NT

[jpak]

60. Pueblo & CO Springs this month

yup

[RSillsbee]

95. Do you mean the gang related shootings?

Or the guy that got dragged to death behind a SUV? Either way I don't recalled a single instance involving a permit holder

[spin]

96. It might help your cause if you provided a link ...

I have no intention of looking the incident up merely because you mention it. With your history of posts, it was probably some criminal who misused a firearm he was never supposed to own in the first place.

[Common Sense Party]

125. I go to Colorado every month, at least a couple of times.

I guarantee you there is not "blood in the streets of Colorado."

More hysterical hyperbole.

[cleanhippie]

9. Is Ignored spewing nonsense again?

[RSillsbee]

15. Nope it's not skoldilocks this time NT

[Hangingon]

16. Simple RS. When you don't have facts, use emotion.

Sad story and I feel for the family, They have lost a child. It was a preventable accident and not the basis for a public policy change.

[TheCowsCameHome]

27. So that poor, dead little girl is just an anecdote....

God, how terribly sick.........

[msongs]

4. "gun owner shoots Goshen first grader..." nt

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. "Gun owner kills Goshen first grader"

[cleanhippie]

8. So what is your point, anyway?

Negligence killed a child. It happens everyday, not only with guns, and the negligent need to be severely punished.

What was your point?

[proud2BlibKansan]

20. I would think it's pretty obvious

:shrug:

[cleanhippie]

37. Well, its not.

:shrug:

[jpak]

5. More guns, more death. What is an acceptable death toll?

:shrug:

[lawodevolution]

24. Yet people own more guns now than ever and murder and accidental death rates are going down

Sorry I had to bust your fairy tale with reality

[spin]

97. Frearms also stop criminal attack and save lives. (n/t)

[Faygo Kid]

10. No doubt a dittohead.

You won't see this reported on Faux News, for sure.

[lawodevolution]

11. Here are the trends

[jpak]

14. Due to hunter safety programs, flame orange hunting gear, fewer hunters

more gun safes and trigger locks

yup

[lawodevolution]

19. And there are more guns in civilian hands, it seems there is no crisis involving gun accidents

And no need to discuss them unless you propose a regulation or government action that will help us stop this fake crisis you are trying to invent with anecdotal stories. They used this method of faking a crisis to get us involved in wars, other prohibitions and take away our freedoms in the past.

[Hangingon]

23. You forgot CHL training.

Mine covered gun safety. There are also NRA gun afety class too.

[KansasVoter]

32. LOL...so I guess CCW training means no more CCW accidental deaths. Wow, thanks!

[lawodevolution]

35. You wouldn't want those accidental deaths to stop, if they did, how would you scam people into

Backing your anti gun agenda?

[cleanhippie]

You are right, until you take that class you said you were going to take, it IS a guess on your part

[Hangingon]

44. Attend a CHL class and tell me about it.

A good class does cover gun safety. No it does not guarantee there will be no more gun accidents. There are no guarantees in life.

[spin]

98. You might try attending a CCW course to learn....oh, that's right ...

you planned to and never did.

Doesn't that make you all hat and no cattle?

[AtheistCrusader]

132. You wouldn't have to guess if you.. well, you know.

[pipoman]

100. Hmmmm..

hunter safety programs, huh? Sounds like the NRA which trains more people in firearms use and safety has been beneficial after all..

Fewer hunters? Do you have the stats on that? How do you explain these stats considering the fact that there are hundreds of thousands more guns in private ownership every single year?

[X_Digger]

101. +14M just last year.. +125M in the last 13 years

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics/reports/total-nics-background-checks

[KansasVoter]

17. Once again, stupid graph......

Hunters used to be the cause of most accidental deaths. As the number of hunters have dropped so have the hunting accidents. Has NOTHING to do with the home gun accidents.

[lawodevolution]

21. Just adding some honesty to your post

And there are more guns in the hands of civilians now.

[Ken_Fish]

46. Or car accidents or pharmacy errors or ER mistakes.

all kill many many people.

[petronius]

49. If, as you say, hunters (and hunting-related accidents) are declining, that graph

is quite relevant - if non-hunting guns are an increasing part of the mix, and accident rates are declining, it suggests that all the dire warnings about "more guns mean more deaths" that crop up on a regular basis when non-hunting gun ownership and carry are discussed. (Unless, or course, the people issuing the warnings actually mean to say "any guns", and are advocating for a gun-free country.)

That said, I'm not sure that hunting-related injuries were ever the dominant contributor to over-all firearms injury rates, and I suspect that the trend posted above is largely driven by non-hunting factors...

[RufusTFirefly]

18. What do the numbers on the vertical axis indicate? n/t

[lawodevolution]

22. Rate of death per 100,000

[RufusTFirefly]

30. Thx. n/t

[Beaverhausen]

29. I'm sure that graph is comforting to little Brooklyn Byler- oh wait

she's dead

[lawodevolution]

33. So are children who die by drowning and car accidents which are more common

Yet y'all aren't trying to ban pools or cars. Someone has to point out when anti gun folk are trying to exploit tragedy to push their agenda

[Beaverhausen]

41. pools and cars have other purposes. Guns have one purpose only

this gun did a fine job, too.

[lawodevolution]

52. Yes guns are meant for entertainment (shooting targets) and self protection

So what's your point?

[X_Digger]

94. Why does that matter?

I get so tired of having to ask that question..

Please, contribute here, I'd love to have your opinion.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x292384

[spin]

99. And that purpose is? If you think that guns are only useful for killing ...

please explain to me how all the firearms that I own have never injured a living creature (let alone killed one) and yet have most have fired thousands of times.

You are just posting Brady Center propaganda without seriously thinking about it.

[pipoman]

102. Really?

How do you explain this?


U.S. Olympic Shooting Team

Funny (not) the complacency toward even requiring safety features on the oh-so-useful private swimming pools which kill 15 times more children than guns even though there are 10 times more households with firearms....selective sorrow is what it is..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=439&topic_id=307454

[Euromutt]

115. Doesn't alter the fact that more kids 10 and under are killed in "back-overs" ...

...than are by unintentional shootings. It's a little over 100 back-overs to 30-35 unintentional shootings, IIRC.

Guns do indeed have one purpose; it is to propel one or more small projectiles with a large amount of kinetic energy at whatever the weapon is aimed at. There are a number of uses in which this property can be put to use, including assault, defense, coercion through threats (which can be for both legitimate or illegitimate purposes), hunting, and target shooting.

The purpose of a motor vehicle is to propel the vehicle and its contents at speeds of up to dozens of miles an hour. In fulfilling this purpose, the vehicle in effect becomes a multi-ton metal bludgeon, more than capable of inflicting lethal trauma on most creatures that stray into its path.

The bottom line is that a car is more lethal than a handgun, and that situation is partly because too many people forget a car is a lethal implement, even if it's not intended to be used as one.

[Ken_Fish]

48. How many dead kids from DWI this year, last night? Where is the national outrage

where is the agenda to ban alcohol? no, sounds pretty stupid. Most americans hear the same thing when people (a teeny minority) push laws to restrict gun laws.

[SecularMotion]

55. Where are the statistics on other results of gun accidents?

Gun accidents may result in death, injuries or property damages.

Have the statistics been adjusted to account for the advancement in medical treatment since 1904, which allows more people to survive gunshots?

[lawodevolution]

56. Where are the other results of knife stabbings and fist fights?

[SecularMotion]

58. Those aren't accidents

Please answer the question about the statistics being adjusted for advances in medical treatment.

[Ken_Fish]

59. How would you adjust based on that. NO way to stratify

the data based on location. Your location when needing treatment (for any emergency) is still quite important to outcome.

[SecularMotion]

61. Then the chart is worthless

and using it to attempt to support an argument is dishonest and deceptive.

[lawodevolution]

63. Wrong, the chart points out that there are fewer deaths per 100,000 now and the rate has been

Going down. It is raw data and the most honest thing posted on here

[SecularMotion]

64. The chart is honest only if you're arguing that more people survive gunshots,

[lawodevolution]

66. No there are no conditions that determine if raw data is honest or not

The OP posted an anecdote about a death involving a firearm accident. I posted up a chart showing the trend in death rate due to firearms. I made the thread honest with it.



If you think there are certain things that have caused the decline in accident rate feel free to work on using that to further reduce the trend but the number of guns in the hands of civilians has gone up per capita.

[SecularMotion]

68. Now you're just being obtuse

It's not the raw data that is honest or dishonest.

It's your use of the data to imply that gun accidents have not increased with the increase in the number of guns in the hands of civilians that is dishonest.

[lawodevolution]

70. Every argument y'all use against guns including the rates of violence in

Canada and the UK dismiss other outcomes of violence except death. Y'all focus on the death rates. But now when the data on death rate doesn't support your agenda you want to focus on injuries, property damage etc.

[SecularMotion]

73. Wrong, the data on death rate doesn't support YOUR agenda

Don't throw me in with y'all.

My only agenda here is to keep the discussion honest.

I'm pro-responsible gun ownership and interested in the total effect of gun accidents on public safety.

[lawodevolution]

79. You seem to think that responding to an anecdote of a death due to gun accident by

Showing the trend in gun accident death rate is not acceptable argument. You are using dishonesty.

Your trying to discredit real data by circumlocution which is dishonest.

Rather than attacking the data I posted, which is an honest and relevant response to the OPs anecdote, why don't you try to post up your non relavent data, and if you can't find any that's your problem, not mine

If a poster presents an anecdote about a gun accident injury and I post up data on injury rate, you'll probably tell me it's dishonest and I need to post up data on death rate.

[Ken_Fish]

83. Ignore rate its a derivative of total events

from total events (murder for example) you will be able to see trends. Like the murders total in australia since 1915. You can see there is no impact from confiscating all handguns.

about 300 murders before the buy back, still about 300 bodies.

[Ken_Fish]

84. The internet is so awesome.. It makes smashing assumptions so easy

here is GAO report countering your post and citing trends. But hey, guess the GAO is dishonest too.

According to statistics maintained by the National Center for Health Sta- tistics, the number of deaths annually caused by accidental firearm dis- charges has generally been decreasing, ranging from 1,955 deaths in
1980 to 1,501 deaths in 1988.

http://161.203.16.4/d20t9/143619.pdf

[SecularMotion]

86. Thanks for posting the link

Actually, it supports my claim here on pg. 12 -

"Another possible explanation is that far more shooting victims may be surviving their injuries because of better trauma care and better access to care."

and this confirms my suspicions here on pg. 5 -

"reasonable to infer from it that the number of accidental injuries from firearms nationwide is substantial and far exceeds the number of fatalities."

[Ken_Fish]

87. Yep and that rate is listed as a derivative of the total, which is declining.

you will also not they used the same numbers that I did. Sorry you cant talk the numbers into something.

They do not support your claim.

[SecularMotion]

91. No, it was determined by a ratio of accidental gun injuries to deaths - 100 to 1

from data on accidental shootings collected across 10 cities.

Thanks again, this is just the type of information on gun accidents that I was looking for. The report echoes the complaint I've found before that there is a lack of data available on accidental gun discharges resulting in non-fatalities.

[Ken_Fish]

92. All accidents are 94-1

so if you get to choose ...?

For example, according to the National Safety Council, similar pro- portions of injuries to deaths exist nationwide for all accidents (94 to l), accidents occurring in the workplace (162 to l), and accidents occurring in the home (151 to 1)

EDIT: boy looks like a major issue.. at 3%

http://www.the-eggman.com/writings/death_stats.html

[Ken_Fish]

89. Oh yeah, you will also note that most quality pistols now include a loaded chamber indicator

like the one mentioned here. I dont remember a law forcing them to do this.

Here is the core of this. It does not support your agenda.

For example, according to the National Safety Council, similar pro- portions of injuries to deaths exist nationwide for all accidents (94 to l), accidents occurring in the workplace (162 to l), and accidents occurring in the home (151 to 1).2

[AtheistCrusader]

133. My springfield has

Loaded Chamber indicator.
Cocked Hammer indicator.
Grip safety.
Trigger safety.
Hammer Block safety.
Magazine Disconnect.


Not a one of which was required by any law.

[pipoman]

104. Seems to me you are

making unsubstantiated claims. Where are your stats showing that gun accidents have increased as you claim they have? You simply thinking, maybe, they have increased are worthless against actual statistics shown in this graph..it is up to you to answer these stats with your own or you have simply failed..

[SecularMotion]

106. I made no claim that gun accidents have increased

I've only said that the chart alone doesn't support the argument that accidents haven't increased with wider gun use. The chart is too vague.

There seems to be an unusual dearth of data about non-fatal gun accidents so it's difficult to determine if the decrease in deaths from gun accidents is a result of better gun safety or better survival rate.

[Atypical Liberal]

120. You can roll your own query on firearm injuries with the CDC

http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/nfirates2001.html

Unintentional Firearm Gunshot Nonfatal Injuries and Rates per 100,000
2001 - 2009, United States
All Races, Both Sexes, All Ages
Disposition: All Cases

Year Number of injuries Population Crude Rate Age-Adjusted Rate**
2001 17,696 285,081,556 6.21 6.08
2002 17,579 287,803,914 6.11 6.04
2003 18,941 290,326,418 6.52 6.45
2004 16,555 293,045,739 5.65 5.64
2005 15,388 295,753,151 5.20 5.10
2006 14,678 298,593,212 4.92 4.86
2007 15,698 301,579,895 5.21 5.14
2008 17,215 304,374,846 5.66 5.67
2009 18,610 307,006,550 6.06 6.00

Data is only available from 2001-2009, but the rate seems fairly steady. There have been record-level sales of firearms and ammunition since the last presidential election and the data does show a slight increase in accidents 2006 on.

Of course when you compare over the same period of time to injuries in motor vehicles, there is just no comparison. Hell, even poisoning, dog bites, and overexertion have a worse injury rate than firearms.

[Ken_Fish]

82. Use big words. Pretend this is 2000 level Stats class. You're a student

I'm teaching. Please explain how your theory has impacted the statistics. How would this be shown in total shootings vs murders? What variance would you expect to see over the last 5, 10 ,or 20 years in what cities? Feel free to use geographic area in the US (not battlefield med, not in Uganda) to prove your point.

"calling" something worthless is not a valid argument. You made the claim, you prove it.

[lawodevolution]

62. Although ER tech hasn't advanced much in the last few decades

There still is no crisis involving gun accidents. If you don't agree, point out the data that shows gun accidents are more significant than accidents involving other objects that you are not trying to limit or ban

[SecularMotion]

65. If you limit the chart to the "last few decades"

it doesn't show much change at all.

Where did you get the idea I am trying to limit or ban objects?

Please don't create strawmen.

[lawodevolution]

67. Reducing to less than half is "little change" in your opinion but I view

It as a significant change

[SecularMotion]

69. Think this might be a factor?

Advances helping more soldiers survive attacks

"The ratio of the number of deaths to the number wounded declined from 24 percent in Vietnam to 13 percent in Iraq through March 31, 2006, the study said. In other words, a greater percentage of soldiers who are wounded in battle now live through their injuries."

http://articles.cnn.com/2006-11-13/us/war.wounded_1_tourniquets-injuries-medical-care?_s=PM:US

I suppose it's just a coincidence that the number of soldiers dying from wounds have fallen by half in the same time period.

[lawodevolution]

71. Due to the ability of getting soldiers in the field to the hospital but ambulances here in the

US were doing their job 20 years ago just as well as today.

Fail

[SecularMotion]

74. Did you even read the article?

"Improvements in medical care starting from the point of injury on the battlefield to the final stop at a military hospital in the United States are contributing to the decline, experts say."

[lawodevolution]

77. Yes medical care on the battle field to the military hospital neither of which

Effect civilian gun accident victims.

Good point.

[SecularMotion]

78. You're being obtuse again

denying that advances in military medical care have not influenced civilian care and vice versa.

Bye, have a good day!

[lawodevolution]

80. Show me the relationship between military emergency medicine and civilian emergency medicine

Over the time period. What you posted was speculation.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

25. the state of being...

lacking an action verb is the problem.

unrec for bad premise and unsustainable analysis and fear mongering.

[KansasVoter]

31. Wow, an unrec from you? How will I deal with it?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

40. wow a snarky reply from you? how will I deal with it?

[Hoopla Phil]

75. I really don't care how you deal with it. But please, do it quietly.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

81. hoopla

:rofl:

[Hoopla Phil]

107. That's not very quit. PPPPlllleeeeeaaaasssse.

[Katya Mullethov]

39. Sounds like somebody

Put off their gun safety training just a week too long .

[Ken_Fish]

43. Guess if he backed over her with a car, it would be all good

he should have used a holster. Not sure what type of firearm will discharge when dropped..

Still has nothing to do with the rights of others to carry or own a gun.

[Ken_Fish]

47. Wow, this is all they have left. No data, no money, no political power. Just a soap box

err dead kid to stand on to pitch an agenda no one wants anymore.

[Hoopla Phil]

57. Weren't you going to take a conceal carry class to see what it's really like?

How did that go?

[Hoopla Phil]

76. If you had taken that concealed carry class as you "claimed" your were going to do you would

know that value of using a good holster. . . .Please take the class.

[oneshooter]

85. He won't take the class, he's too skeerd.

He got caught in a lie, and is trying to crawfish his way out of it.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[Katya Mullethov]

103. Once the glaciers recede back into Nebraska

They have to deal witb post-glacial catastrophic flooding as ice dams form and then fail . Releasing 100's of billions of acre feet of melt water . I was pleasantly surprised to see there is an internet connection .

[rl6214]

88. I would say it's more of a negligent discharge

YUP

YUP

YUP

[Ken_Fish]

90. BTW here are the rates for ALL accidents in the home, workplace, etc.. They dont support your agenda

When the 105 to 1 ratio of injuries to deaths caused by accidental firearms discharges is compared with similar data for other types of accidents, our data appear consis- tent,

For example, according to the National Safety Council, similar pro- portions of injuries to deaths exist nationwide for all accidents (94 to l), accidents occurring in the workplace (162 to l), and accidents occurring in the home (151 to 1)

see then "implications" statement (pg 25)

Backing data..
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2F161.203.16.4%2Fd20t9%2F143619.pdf&rct=j&q=total%20accidental%20shootings%20year%20to%20year&ei=kMBqTcf3LZHmtge_iYHnAg&usg=AFQjCNG2u3QkDqzsWkP_TYLAC8N1vzOgBQ&cad=rja

[ileus]

105. Same thing happend to me about an hour (without the ND/AD)

Just about an hour ago this happened to me....I removed my M&P from our vehicle and put it in my waist band while I moved my jeep from behind me garage door. When I went back into the house I bent over to take off my shoes and it fell from my belt (it was holstered)and into one on my shoes. I said to myself well at least it's drop proof. I picked it up and carried it to the safe and locked it away. Both my kids were about 8ft away at that time.


I wonder what type pistol it was?

[Atypical Liberal]

116. Fortunately, this is a rare occurrance.

Fortunately, this is a rare occurrence.

Accidental firearm deaths are at historic lows. Modern firearms are very difficult to make accidentally discharge from dropping, and they are engineered to be so. Manufacturers, as Ruger recently did with their SR9 and LCP series of pistols, will issue recalls if there is even a slight possibility of this happening.

That said, one of the reasons I don't carry a firearm on my person is because I have two small children. I don't want to have to worry about it while they are climbing all over me, and I don't want to have to worry about them finding a firearm if I have set it down for any reason.

[AtheistCrusader]

127. Pistols made in the last 30 years are generally not susceptible to this sort of thing.

It's called a hammer block safety. It prevents forward motion of the firing pin, until and unless there is pressure on the trigger.