What should instructors at a public universities in Texas do when students can carry in class?

[readmoreoften]

The legislature is about to pass a ruling that students with conceal carry licenses can carry weapons on campus and in class. Many campuses in Texas (particularly the one where I am an interested party) have large class sections (400 student stadium classes with lockable doors), a high ratio of returning vets with PTSD, and a student body raised with very conservative political sensibilities (majority anti-choice, suspicious of global warming, anti-evolution, anti-union). The progressive forces on the campus where I am an interested party are an almost entirely non-activist immigrant/latino population and an outspoken but apolitical LGBT population, which generally has widespread campus support even among conservatives because LGBT issues discussed are campus related (anti-hate crimes on campus, "promoting tolerance", etc.)

In light of the new legislation, what should a professor to do, especially if he/she teaches controversial and required subject matter such as ethics, critical thinking, and biology? Or if he/she is feminist or LGBT?

Posting in GD and not "guns" because I'd really like a wide range of opinions on the matter. This is not flamebait. I'm really looking for suggestions and solutions to a tough situation. I've added choices to the poll that I don't agree with, but ones I have heard from faculty.

[readmoreoften]

1. Corrected poll. Please explain "other."

[RKP5637]

2. Frankly, I would start working on obtaining a position in a different state. I know in

my case I would never attend a university in Texas.

[readmoreoften]

9. Not a really practical option in this economy. Also:

I'm lucky to have work; my job is secure; my colleagues are wonderful.

[RKP5637]

13. I have a friend that spent his entire life in OK for similar reasons and was very unhappy, but

I do know what you mean.

To have to have guns in a university is indicative of how low the US has become. It's a very very sad commentary on America.

[rl6214]

112. "To have to have guns in a university"

This is bullshit. Never is a matter of have to have. It's a matter of being able to exercise 2a rights. Let's be honest here.

[RKP5637]

138. Yes, absolutely true, it is a matter to exercise 2a rights, but still doesn't mean I agree with this

in a university setting.

[krispos42]

238. Yeah, just because a huge chunk of violent criminals are of college age

(statistically speaking), and lots of student activities happen at all hours of the day and night, and there are lots of strangers surrounding you all the time... there's no reason to worry about protecting yourself.

Nope, none at all.

[RKP5637]

242. I never experienced that environment at the universities I attended. n/t

[krispos42]

248. Anecdotal

I never did either, but I'm also a sobersides 6-foot-tall male that didn't wander around campus at night.







This is the 2010 report from the main UConn campus at Storrs, a located in rural Connecticut. It is a standalone campus, not part of a larger suburban or urban community. It's the campus, with a few small stores and some apartment complexes on the edges.

And this is what is officially reported to the police, not a comprehensive survey of the student body, so you know lots more shit went down than what the cops heard about. Especially the sexual assault stuff. :-(

Of course, if general campus life is really so safe and secure, then the guns that some of the students can now pack won't be used, now will they?


And this doesn't cover the issue of getting to and from your college classes. Even if you feel safe and secure in the classroom, there is still the journey from your dorm room to the class. You're a commuter, you park in a gloomy parking garage and have to walk a quarter-mile to your class. Two hours later, you have to walk back to the same parking garage. That's where the risk is. But how can you carry a weapon if your end destination prohibits it? There is no check-in for pistols at the entrance to the building!

[RKP5637]

260. Thanks!!! n/t

[PavePusher]

257. You are a single data point. You arenot the trend-curve. n/t

[RKP5637]

259. Yep, I know. n/t

[ProgressiveProfessor]

194. If you have an academic position today giving it up for something so trifling would be silly

[Jackpine Radical]

3. Speak softly & grade high.

[Johonny]

12. +1

[kiranon]

26. +2

[pnwmom]

4. Move to one of the 48 states without this insane law. n/t

[Hoopla Phil]

162. IIRC that will be 46 states. Oh btw, can you

show me, in the states that currently allow it, where there has been a problem?

[slackmaster]

5. Other. They should stick to their jobs and keep teaching, which is what students pay them to do.

In light of the new legislation, what should a professor to do, especially if he/she teaches controversial and required subject matter such as ethics, critical thinking, and biology? Or if he/she is feminist or LGBT?

Your fear has no factual foundation. Concealed weapons permit holders in the state of Texas are statistically far less likely to commit crimes than are members of the public in general.

Read and learn: http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/convrates.htm

There are good reasons for that - The general population includes convicted felons, domestic abusers, people who were discharged dishonorably from the military, people who are in the country illegally, and other categories of people who aren't permitted to own firearms much less get a permit to carry them concealed. Permit holders have been screened for legal issues, and demonstrated proficiency in the use of their weapons and a knowledge of the law.

[readmoreoften]

Actually, the "students" don't pay for the majority of the salaries.

Most of the budget comes from corporations and private donations, even for publics in Texas.

Regardless, the issue is not just whether concealed-carry persons are statistically less likely to shoot. This also invalidates the problem that the university's main emergency response policy which is "if you notice someone hiding a gun under their clothes, report immediately"

[slackmaster]

10. Whatever. Their job is to teach, and students are there, by choice, to learn.

...This also invalidates the problem that the university's main emergency response policy which is "if you notice someone hiding a gun under their clothes, report immediately"

That policy will probably have to be revised. However, if someone is carrying a concealed weapon properly you won't ever notice it.

[readmoreoften]

18. What, exactly, is the source of your hostility? Are you insinuating teachers don't want to teach?

Or are you demanding that they teach in situations where they feel threatened, and that they don't even have the right to address that threat? Teachers should "shut up and teach" or something?

Your comments, other than your link, really haven't been anything more than red herrings.

I am not anti-gun. I, in fact, own guns. That doesn't mean that there is no reason to be concerned when you have a high rate of mental illness, specifically PTSD, on a college campus.

[slackmaster]

29. I have no hostility at all. I'm just giving you facts and suggesting that your fear is irrational.

Teachers should "shut up and teach" or something?

Intentionally mis-quoting me is argumentum ad hominem and violates at least the spirit of the forum rules.

Your comments, other than your link, really haven't been anything more than red herrings.

I've provided three links to relevant information. I suggest you study it, and then reconsider whether your fear of feeling threatened has a rational basis. You're suggesting that students who are in school by choice would pose a threat to you if you present ideas with which they disagree. If that was the case, you'd already be under threat of violent attack, and a few students having lawfully concealed weapons isn't going to make any difference. I have a university education, and my experience is that professors who have unpopular opinions get ridiculed but not threatened.

[readmoreoften]

40. I have not misquoted you, intentionally or otherwise. And that's not an ad hominem argument.

An ad hominem argument is an attack on your person. If I said "slackmaster is a moral degenate who just wants to go around killing people" that's an ad hominem. What I said was hyperbole, which is a rhetorical technique and not a fallacy.

While I question the validity of the statistics presented, they don't even really matter. I'm not asking whether or not its preferable to have licensed or unlicensed weapons in class, or shooters with conceal carry versus those without state permission. The question is whether its preferable to have a weapons-free zone with the possibility of violation by a criminal, or a weaponized campus also with the possibility of violations by criminals.

The question is whether the benefit of having a student who could shoot a hostile shooter outweighs the possibility of a student becoming that hostile shooter OR botching and complicating the situation.

[slackmaster]

45. Finally we get to the core false dilemma of your position

...I'm not asking whether or not its preferable to have licensed or unlicensed weapons in class, or shooters with conceal carry versus those without state permission. The question is whether its preferable to have a weapons-free zone with the possibility of violation by a criminal, or a weaponized campus also with the possibility of violations by criminals.

The problem with that way of thinking is that in the absence of strong, active security measures such as those in use at courthouses and the secure areas of airports, you have absolutely no assurance that the campus is indeed a weapons-free zone. The people who present a real risk of a violent attack are not the ones who would be carrying firearms legally if they could do so.

The bad people are already there, already carry weapons, and don't give a rat's patoot what laws or rules they break. A place where a small minority of people have permits and carry weapons legally is no more or less dangerous than a pretend weapons-free zone.

[readmoreoften]

58. It's not "bad people". The root of your false dilemma is "bad people" vs "good people."

Our campus is filled with people--not "bad people" or "good people". Over 40% of students have self-reported a mental illness on campus. My issue isn't with good people or bad people; its stable people and unstable people. 20-22 years old are prime candidates for schizophrenia and the onset can be rapid. Our universities are filled with diagnosed and undiagnosed people with PTSD.

You're not really addressing anything I have to say, except naming logical fallacies. You aren't even particularly pointing our where these fallacies are in the argument; you're just throwing out the names of logical fallacies. That isn't really worth my time.

Thanks for your input.

[slackmaster]

72. All you have done is repeat "doomesday" scenarios that are always brought up on the subject...

...of concealed carry, but have consistently proved to be unfounded. The social experiment of liberalized concealed carry has been going on in this country for more than 25 years now, and the problems that naysayers continue to insist are inevitable have not materialized.

[jpak]

41. Pointy-headed marxist profs deserve to be intimidated by gun-toting Young Republicans

yup

[rl6214]

114. Bullshit

Nothing more to says about this.

[Hoopla Phil]

164. And just how is a prof "intimidated" by a CONCEALED firearm?

[Callisto32]

178. You have serious "fear of the other" issues.

[a la izquierda]

32. Nobody who supports this considers the chaos this...

could cause. This very same debate has come up in Oklahoma, and the police, university presidents, and the former Democratic and current Republican governors don't support it.
What happens when a kid on campus tries to shoot up a classroom? Then some good Samaritan tries to take him down, but he/she's never been in this stressful situation, misses, and kills someone else? Or gets shot by the bad guy?
Or the cop misidentifies the actual shooter? Hmm? There are too many variables to have an entire campus armed, and since I'm assuming you don't work on a college campus, you wouldn't know/consider/care abou this.

[slackmaster]

34. That scenario is always suggested when this subject comes up

It's never actually happened anywhere.

[readmoreoften]

42. Actually it did happen in the Giffords case. Someone almost shot the medical handler

who wrested the gun from Lautner.

[slackmaster]

46. "almost shot" = didn't shoot

HTH

[readmoreoften]

51. That is true, but that is only due to the judgment of the shooter. It shows that such situations

are indeed chaotic and, thus, it is not irrational to think that poor judgment can also be made in such a situation.

[mediator]

91. Well, we should all take comfort in the fact that no policeman has ever mistakenly shot anyone.

or ever will.

:eyes:

[one-eyed fat man]

271. The fact that it is more chaotic

Is one the reasons the law in most states places a HIGHER burden when intervening to defend a third party than when defending yourself. To defend yourself you only need to be confronted with a situation where the use of deadly force is justified on the facts as the appear to be.

Assaults, armed robberies, rape are not crimes of subtlety requiring great powers of discrimination to discern. If a man puts a knife to a woman's throat and says, "You're coming with me..." She will very likely be accurate that a crime is being committed, and she will likely suffer no ambiguity as to exactly which one of them is the perpetrator and which is the victim.

She would clearly be justified in most states in shooting her assailant. Furthermore, she would still be justified had the assailant only been playing a "prank" known to everyone BUT her. If a stranger with the means and in a position to carry through makes a deadly threat you have every right to believe them.

On the other hand, when intervening on behalf of a third party, not only must the person you are defending be in a position where their use of lethal force would be justified, it must be supported by the facts AS THEY ARE, not just as they appear to be. A cop shooting the wrong person under those circumstances would likely get a pass, the holder of a CCW will not.

[rl6214]

115. How do you almost shoot someone?

The almost shooter never almost pulled the trigger, never put his finger on the trigger, never unholster his weapon so if you've not done any of these things, how do you almost shoot someone?

[jpak]

43. It will

yup

[Hoopla Phil]

165. I'm sure then, that you can show where this has happened at campuses that already allow

concealed carry?

Please post such incidents here.

[a la izquierda]

189. Has there been a shooting in Utah?

I don't know every single campus in America that allows people afraid of their shadows and wanna-be vigilantes to carry guns, because I don't have a gun obsession and I don't follow gun stories with some weird fascination. I follow this story because I might have a job in Texas. I grew up in a house with guns. I could give a rats ass if you want to own one. But I'll be damned if you're going to interfere with ME doing MY JOB, which is to teach college students. So, I have to soften my grading even more because Johnny packs heat and ain't taking what some liberal bitch has to say? I don't think so. It's bad enough college professors have to deal with students' parents over grades, and students menacing them physically over 2 points on a quiz. But to bring guns into the mix is asking for trouble.
And you're a naive fool if you think otherwise.
Do you know I had to ask my husband to consider this scenario: if I were to get a job at a Texas school, do I buy a gun? That's totally, unquestionably insane.

But I'll defer to Oklahoma's cops, who didn't want the law to pass a couple years back. They, and not you (or maybe you, how should I know) are the experts).

ETA: Since I can't check your profile, but I see you have an Army symbol, here's some anecdotal info for you. My brother in law is a Sheriff and a former MP. He would not let either of his kids attend a university where guns were allowed on campus.

[PavePusher]

211. "wanna-be vigilantes"... well, at least you let your biases hang out in the open.

You might want to look up the difference between "vigilantism" and "self-defense". There's a pretty clear legal and moral divide that you seem to be ignoring.

P.S. Cops, in their professional capacity, do not get to decide what our Civil Rights are. Also, if you poll individual officers, and not thier professional political orgs, you'll find a very different trend.

[a la izquierda]

227. I'm not ignoring anything actually.

I know what the self-defense is, I know what vigilantes are, and what you seem to be ignoring is the ability for me and other faculty to feel safe to do our jobs because we don't want kids packing heat. Kids. Don't. Need. Guns. On. Campuses. Let the cops do their jobs. Oklahoma police across the board didn't want the law passed. So yeah, I have a bias in this case. You probably skipped the part where I said I don't actually care about guns, and that I grew up with them (at least I'm pretty sure I wrote that-I didn't actually reread my post).
I don't need guns in my house because if you get past my dogs, who know the house (and this is highly unlikely), and you're fumbling in the dark hallway, the next thing you'll experience won't be shooting me-it'll be a busted skull compliments of my husband or me. And I played 13 years of highly competitive softball. But I do not live my life worrying about being burgled or robbed.

And I don't believe all people who own guns are wanna-be vigilantes, but I'm sure you know that. You just purposefully misconstrued my words. My neighbors have guns, and I actually-gasp-don't think they're out to conquer the world to rid it of people they don't like. They have a gun. Who gives a crap? I don't have to teach them or live in their house. They feel the need to have a gun, it's their right and it does not impinge on me in any way (unless of course they start target shooting in their yard, in which case it might).
A student having a gun in my classroom could impinge on my right to feel safe in my place of business.

What about this do you not care to comprehend?

Oh, and as for the cops.
Read this, paragraph two from Texas: http://www.statesman.com/news/texas-politics/ut-chancellor-warns-against-guns-on-campus-1282757.html
And this, for Arizona: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/27/us/politics/27guns.html
Louisiana: http://www.americanpress.com/lc/blogs/wpnewssum/?p=5576
Florida: http://www.pnj.com/article/20110222/NEWS01/110222014/Gun-bill-worries-campus-cops

[PavePusher]

228. If the student is carrying legally and without ill intent, then you are perfectly safe.

And your wording seemed deliberately chosen to strike a certain reaction. So don't complain when you get exactly that reaction. If you meant something else, restate your point.

P.S. Most students are legal adults. They can vote, publish silly crap in newspapers, enter into legal contracts and volunteer to die for their country. And again, police don't get to decide what your Civil Rights are. That, by the way, is a good thing. A few police chiefs, invariably in a position based on politics are against Civil Rights? So. What.

[a la izquierda]

231. How is a professor to know...

if a student is without ill intent one day, and then pissed as all get out the next? So, how do I grade? On eggshells so as not to piss off my already frazzled students? I don't flippin' think so. With the exception of the very rigorous liberal arts schools, college kids are already greased through the system.
I've spent enough time in the Gun Forum to know who says what to provoke exactly what reactions. It's a two way street.
Yep, students are legal adults. Yep they can enter legal contracts. Having spent an inordinate amount of time around them lately, I'm a little frightened as to whether or not most 18 year olds have the mental capacity to understand the responsibility they undertake when they carry a concealed weapon. And therein lies the problem. It's one thing to go through rigorous training to go die for one's country. It's quite another to simply go through a CCW class.

And I'm happy cops don't determine my rights, but nobody is consulting the cops' opinion in order to overturn the 2nd amendment.

Okay, I have to end this here. You won't convince me that this is a good idea, and I'm done trying to convince you that professors have a right to safety that you clearly don't understand, since you feel that students with guns should automatically make us feel safe. I can tell you it doesn't.

[PavePusher]

234. I'm simply saying that you have all the Rights you have out on the street...

but simply being in a classroom does not merit you any special abridgement of my Rights.

If you are that concerned about getting shot by an angry student, I have to wonder a. What kind of students are being tolerated these days, and b. What are you doing so wrong that would incite such an action?

If you think a student is that unstable, report it accordingly.

[a la izquierda]

247. I had a student verbally assault me...

over two points on a quiz. So try not to turn this around on professors.

[Hoopla Phil]

255. What is "verbal assault"? And the bigger question is - So what?

Did this person physically batter you? No? So why do you think that will be different?

I also note that you have never answered my question. I wonder why that is. . .

[a la izquierda]

274. What question?

Actually, don't bother, maybe I'll find time to go look it up. You're being intentionally confrontational, so rather than let you have it, I'm just going to hide you and hide this thread.

I'll tell you what: you try being called a fucking bitch and a cunt, and told to "change the grade" in front of about 100 students, by a mentally unhinged student over two points on a quiz that equaled about 4% of the total grade. That student can leave his iron dick at the door, I don't want it in my classroom. There is 0, zip, nada in the Second Amendment that says one must have a gun everywhere. Go take a Constitutional Law class.
Anyway, I hope he enjoyed his time with the cops.

Buh bye.

[Hoopla Phil]

279. LOL! So, being unable to debate the issue on the merits you run away. . .LMAO

How typical.

Again, What is "verbal assault"? And the bigger question is - So what?

So you were embarrassed by a vulgar lace tirade. So what? Did this person physically batter your? No? So what makes you think anything different would happen? You have no evidence - just your scared precognition - tell us, how has that precognition of yours worked so far?

I'll tell you this. I did have to stand up for myself in a class of about 100 once upon a time. I was not understanding the profs assistant and asked for clarification. Someone else thought it a good opportunity to degrade me and I told him off there in class, "screw you bitch" was what I think I said. The Profs assistant only then decided he needed to take control of the class. . . he should have done so a lot sooner IMO. Sounds like YOU need to take control of your own class to me. If you have an "unhinged" pupil then get that person out. It really is that simple.

[oneshooter]

235. You must be mistaken......

"I'm a little frightened as to whether or not most 18 year olds have the mental capacity to understand the responsibility they undertake when they carry a concealed weapon"

By state law you must be 21 years old to apply for or obtain a CHL. By FEDERAL law you must be 21 to purchase a handgun.

So why is there all of talk of -18- year olds?

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[a la izquierda]

246. Typo, sorry, was thinking about something else...

Yes, I know you have to be 21, which would significantly cut down on the number of students carrying guns on campus.

[GreenStormCloud]

249. 18 yr olds can't get CCWs. Have to be 21.

CCW permit holders have a much lower conviction record than the general public. You have nothing to fear from CCW students. The one you need to fear is the one who is carrying illegally already. Do you really think he is going to pay attention to your no-guns policy?

[Merchant Marine]

284. 18 year olds cannot purchase handguns

Neither can they hold concealed carry permits. You have to be 21 to get one.

I don't think I need to tell you that a 21 year old is not a "kid".

[Hoopla Phil]

240. I"ll take that as a "no". Until and unless you can provide otherwise. LMAO!!!

[a la izquierda]

275. You never responded to my comment.

Try and pay attention.

[Hoopla Phil]

281. Um actually, you never answered MY question. I'll repeat it here.

What is "verbal assault"? And the bigger question is - So what?

Did this person physically batter you? No? So why do you think that will be different?

I also note that you have never answered my question. I wonder why that is. . .

[Statistical]

190. CCW mistakenly shoot the wrong person LESS OFTEN than Police do.

If your fear is being mistakenly shot then maybe we should disarm the Police?


"There are too many variables to have an entire campus armed"
You won'r. Currently CCW in "shall issue" states are about 1% to 3% of the population. There is nothing to believe that would be different for students and facuilty. It hasn't been a problem off campus.

[PavePusher]

233. Do you have a cite to support that?

Also, can I start informing on those that use the First, Fourth and Thirteenth Amendments? Who do I report to?

[MicaelS]

11. This is the answer right here n/t

[pnwmom]

16. But people who carry guns are FAR more likely to use them

than people who don't even own guns.

And millions of permit holders have slipped through the cracks because their permits were issued before they developed their problem with drugs, alcohol, PTSD, or whatever.

[slackmaster]

21. If you think that licensed concealed carry of guns is a problem, please cite statistics

...to support your position.

And millions of permit holders have slipped through the cracks because their permits were issued before they developed their problem with drugs, alcohol, PTSD, or whatever.

Millions? Let's see some hard numbers to back it up. The Texas DPS tracks denials and revocations of permits, and a plethora of other information.

http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/demographics.htm

I provided hard numbers. Please at least make an effort to support your argument with facts.

[pnwmom]

124. There are no statistics about licensed concealed carry on college campuses --

a very specific environment with high rates of alcohol abuse -- because until now guns have not been allowed on college campuses.

So this is a situation where you have to rely on common sense. And testimony about tragedies like this one. The gun in this case was an AK-47, not a concealed handgun, but a drunk student with a handgun also poses a risk to himself and everyone around him.

http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2011/02/guns_at_college_father_of_girl.php

Ashley Cowie, a sophomore at Florida State University, was shot and killed last month after an AK-47 accidentally went off at a party at a property housing fraternity brothers. Clearly, firearms and college parties don't mix well, but a bill introduced last month would allow students at Florida state colleges to openly have firearms on campus if they have the proper permits. Cowie's father, Robert, offered tearful testimony this week urging against the passage of the bill.

Ashley died on January 9th after 20-year-old Evan Wilhelm began brandishing an AK-47 during the party. The weapon accidentally discharged and hit Ashley in the chest. Her twin sister Amy tried to perform CPR to save Ashley, but she died at the scene. The bullet also hit another student in the wrist after exiting Ashley's body.

Only days later, state Senator Greg Evers (R-Crestview) introduced a bill that would allow students to carry concealed firearms on public college campuses. Twenty-four states forbid students from bringing concealed weapons on campus, while 23 leave it up to the individual schools. Two other states do not allow any citizens to carry a concealed weapon. According to Business Week, only ten schools in Utah and two other schools in America allow students to bring concealed weapons on campus.

Robert Cowie, Ashley's father, offered testimony this week in front of lawmakers about why such a bill should not be passed.

SNIP

[slackmaster]

153. So, in the absence of information your default is to deny people a highly personal choice

You also seem to distrust people who study, teach, and work at colleges and universities.

Thank you for your candor.

[X_Digger]

158. It's legal in Utah and parts of Colorado.. if such stats (heck even anecdotes) existed, you'd know..

Cowie's killer also didn't have a CHL, so it's apple to orange.

[PavePusher]

213. Dodge. Redirect, please. n/t

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[one-eyed fat man]

107. Murderous Million Mom Marchers and other gun free hypocrites

After helping to organize the Million Mom March, and even speaking at the event, Barbara Graham was convicted of shooting an innocent man. Now he is paralyzed for life. When police searched her home, they found three handguns and a Tec-9 "assault weapon." She received a life sentence on nine charges, including illegal possession of a firearm (guns are, for all intents and purposes, illegal to own in D.C.).

Annette Stevens president of Springfield, Illinois chapter of the Million Mom March was arrested for possession of an illegal gun that had its serial number ground off, and drugs.

In case you missed it, HECTOR MARROQUIN, the founder of a gang intervention program called NO GUNS, was arrested last week for being in possession of a firearm. As a convicted felon, he isn't allowed to have a gun. And even if he was allowed to own a gun, as head of an organization that calls itself NO GUNS, it would have looked hypocritical anyway.

Hector Marroquin Sr., 49, of Downey was taken into custody when police raided his home looking for his son, Hector Marroquin Jr., a reputed gang member nicknamed "Little Weasel," Hawthorne police Lt. Tom Jester said.

Marroquin Jr., 31, was wanted as a suspect in a home-invasion robbery that terrorized a Hawthorne woman and her infant in December, Jester said.

[pnwmom]

125. Robert Cowie has testified about how his daughter Ashley was killed by a drunken shooter

at a frat party in Florida. Is Robert Cowie a hypocritical murder-in-waiting? Is every person concerned about guns on college campuses a murderer-to-be?

http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2011/02/guns_at_college_father_of_girl.php

[X_Digger]

159. Off-campus, by a non-CHL holder..

Appeal to Emotion, anyone?

[Ken_Fish]

116. Actually they are less likely than the police to break the law..

but hey who pays attention to facts around here.

[pnwmom]

129. Oh yeah? Where are the statistics about licensed concealed carry on college campuses?

They don't exist because college campuses until now haven't allowed guns. But 21 year olds at college engage in higher levels of drinking than people the same age who aren't in college. Alcohol, parties, and guns are a nasty mix.

[Ken_Fish]

139. Not quite, pretty sure utah and CO have not had "blood running in the streets"

and they allow carry on campus. You data is incorrect.

[pnwmom]

141. Only Utah, from what I've read. And drinking isn't a big issue

there compared to other states, due to the prevalence of Mormons.

[Ken_Fish]

142. CO too. pretty sure they drink there... No blood in the streets in these schools..

Colorado State University, Arapahoe Community College, Colorado Northwestern Community College, Community College of Aurora, Community College of Denver, Front Range Community College, Lamar Community College, Morgan Community College, Northeastern Junior College, Otero Junior College, Pikes Peak Community College, Pueblo Community College, Red Rocks Community College, Trinidad State Junior College, and Aims Community College.

[PavePusher]

215. You ignorance is blinding you. Have you ever been to Utah? n/t

[one-eyed fat man]

166. Try Utah and Colorado

You see bunches and bunches of murderous Mormons blasting the classrooms in Utah? Since 1947, Trinidad State College in Colorado has been offering the premier college-level gunsmithing program in the United States. What do you think a gunsmith's homework looks like? A flower arrangement?

Hormonal histrionics aside, every college campus shooting has occurred either in a supposedly gun free zone where the school policy made sure that only the shooter would have a gun, like Virginia Tech. To the point the campus cops could do nothing but wait for "real police" to come from town.

Or like in Florida, they occurred off campus, at a private party, which since it is NOT ON CAMPUS would not be affected by the rules on campus no matter how many grief stricken relatives are exploited pretending otherwise.

[RSillsbee]

169. CU Boulder allows CC on campus

Zero problems to date. I carried a gun every day in college no one ever even knew

[PavePusher]

214. Dodge again. Gosh, you're good at that. n/t

[GreenStormCloud]

251. The parties happen off campus and are not effected by the proposed law.

Since the parties aren't effected, why are you bringing them up?

[rl6214]

119. AAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

"But people who carry guns are FAR more likely to use them than people who don't even own guns."

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Cid_B]

161. One might say...

infinitely more likely? Sheesh...

[rl6214]

175. Don't think you got the point

"But PEOPLE WHO CARRY GUNS are FAR more likely to use them than people who DON'T EVEN OWN GUNS."

[Cid_B]

191. I think I do...

I made a math/nerd joke. Think we are on the same page though

[PavePusher]

216. Yep, someone divided by zero.

And it caused a black hole to form in their head... :evilgrin:

[Cid_B]

230. Dangerous stuff...

Huzzah google images and internet memes...

[GreenStormCloud]

193. Million slipped through the cracks?

Please be advised that there are only about 8 million CCW permit holders in the nation. So you are claiming that over 20% of us have drug or mental problems? Please prove your assertation.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

17. +1

thank you.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

23. Your proficiency at Ninja skills is surpassed only by the vividness of your imagination

:D

[readmoreoften]

30. I'd have to say I agree with your post. I'd rather know who had a gun.

For instance, if a student who holds a CC suddenly manifests schizophrenia, which often onsets in the 20s, I'd like to be able to report this to the police. Regardless of whether these statistics are bogus or not, they're really kind of irrelevant here. If you teach a class with 500 students, even if 99% of concealed carry holders are superior in response to police, your problem is 1 student.

I really wouldn't even have much of a problem with this if the weapon wasn't concealed.

[joshcryer]

67. Conceal carry permits require extensive background checks.

Open carry, not so much. Yes you can, right now, go buy a gun in about 30+ states and put it in a holster and walk around with it in public with no problems (OK, some cops might stop you if they're being stupid but there are advocacy sites that show you how to deal with them).

Between conceal and open I think conceal carry people are less likely to go berserk.

[PavePusher]

218. Ummm, do you have some stats on Open Carriers "going berserk"? n/t

[Name removed]

95. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rl6214]

123. If there is that one student

he probably wouldn't be a CC holder and wouldn't matter what was legal and what wasn't.

[joshcryer]

65. The vast majority of US states allow "open carry" actually. TX is one of the exceptions, ironically.

[Name removed]

93. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[X_Digger]

160. What, pray tell, is missing from that data? n/t

[PavePusher]

217. Who the heck would carry their defensive weapon in a brief-case?

And how can I "spray the room" with a gun that shoots only one round per trigger-pull?

Or do you think people are carrying full-auto Uzi's around town?

[readmoreoften]

22. I get it. Shut up and teach. But, wait, "People who are here illegally"? Are you suggesting that

immigrant students are a threat more than students with severe mental illness?

That statement has no factual basis.

[slackmaster]

27. I was just listing the major categories of people who are prohibited from owning guns under federal

...law.

See http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html and scroll down to paragraph (d).

Are you suggesting that immigrant students are a threat more than students with severe mental illness?

That statement has no factual basis.

Your interpretation of what I wrote has no logical basis. Are you trying to tar me as a racist? Don't bother, you will fail.

I gave you a link to the actual law. Read and learn.

[jpak]

39. They have a right to a threat-free working environment

Flunk the toters

yup

[rl6214]

126. You have no such right

keep the chicken shits that are afraid of guns and CC holders and lock them in a rubber room for their own safety.:sarcasm:

[PavePusher]

219. And how do you arrange that?

I see "FAIL" in your future.

yup

[GreenStormCloud]

252. You won't know who is carrying. Concealed means concealed. N/T

[jpak]

62. How authoritarian

yup

[fishwax]

82. "flunk the toters" is pretty authoritarian too

[fishwax]

81. students don't pay instructors

about whether or not the law is a cause for significant concern, though, I agree with your post.

[Hoopla Phil]

111. Really? Then where did all the money go that I paid?

[fishwax]

113. to the school

The school pays the instructor. Saying the students pay the instructor is a bit like claiming a guy buying a newspaper is paying the reporter.

[slackmaster]

192. If everybody cancelled their subscriptions to the newspaper, would the reporter get paid?

However the money flows, ultimately a professor is getting paid to perform a service. Some of the money comes from students, some from their parents, some from corporate or charitable grants, some from government (i.e. taxpayers).

[fishwax]

204. to the extent that the newspaper could still sell advertising, yes

Unlikely to a great extent, of course, but that's really neither here nor there.

Yes, as you say, a professor is getting paid to perform a service, and in most cases that service primarily involves instruction. And certainly it's true that if there were no students the instructors wouldn't have a job. But how the money flows remains important--and just as buying a ticket to a movie doesn't make you the boss of the guy at the concession stand or the actors in the film, paying one's tuition is not the same as paying the instructor.

[slackmaster]

206. The value for advertising in a newspaper with no subscriptions would approach zero

Very quickly.

...buying a ticket to a movie doesn't make you the boss of the guy at the concession stand or the actors in the film, paying one's tuition is not the same as paying the instructor.

If I was a student at a college or university where the professors refused to teach because of some irrational fear, I think I'd withdraw and go to school somewhere else.

[fishwax]

207. right, that's why I qualified it as unlikely

Although, for the record, "no subscribers" does not equal "no readers" and there are newspapers who don't have any subscribers and manage to stay in business.

"If I was a student at a college or university where the professors refused to teach because of some irrational fear, I think I'd withdraw and go to school somewhere else."

I wouldn't blame you.

[Hoopla Phil]

241. Really??! Then where does the money to pay the reporter come from?

Maybe the newspaper prints it. . . LMAO!!!!

[fishwax]

261. from advertisers, mostly n/t

[Hoopla Phil]

266. Oh? And you have the data to support this claim?

[fishwax]

269. it's a basic fact of the industry

"Print newspapers in the U.S. have relied primarily on advertising to support the costs of doing business, and this reliance has grown during the past two decades.7 Approximately 70 to 80 percent of total newspaper revenue is generated by three sources of advertising: national and local display advertising and classified advertising.8"

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3677/is_200704/ai_n25137495/

[Hoopla Phil]

267. I don't think you understand the "fungability" of money in an account.

nice try though. Better do a bit more research.

[fishwax]

270. no, I understand fungibility just fine

Do you also think the students pay the administrators? The janitors? The librarians? The football coach? The university president?

[Hoopla Phil]

282. Apparently not. As you demonstrate in your posts.

yup

[Missy Vixen]

85. Until some instructor gets shot

for daring to disagree with a student, like the story from the other day.

Or till someone snaps, and takes out 32 of his fellow students and an instructor.

Random shootings (especially school shootings,) never, ever happen, and everyone with a CCP is perfectly sane and would NEVER shoot someone because they were angry with them.

See Brame, Crystal, and hundreds of thousands of others in this country who were shot by those who were judged to be competent enough to be issued a badge or a concealed carry permit.

:sarcasm:

[friendly_iconoclast]

208. Your first two examples happened at purportedly "gun-free" colleges.

Sure you want to go that route?

[Missy Vixen]

239. Oh, I'm going there

I'm sick and tired of the Wild Wild West mentality among those firearm fetishists who have been repeatedly proven ineffective or worse when confronted with a "situation", and neither managed to get a shot off (Tucson, LIRR tragedy,) or didn't bring down the shooter/almost shot an innocent bystander (Columbine, so many others I will not name).

I have NEVER been protected by a bystander with a gun. I have been menaced by someone with a gun who couldn't wait to show it off/play with it/let everyone know how tough they were because they had one. Imagine one guy's surprise when the cops showed up minutes later and didn't find him (and his gun) quite so entrancing.

Guns in any school are a recipe for disaster, especially colleges that house kids in their 20's that may be manifesting significant mental health issues.

[Ken_Fish]

254. The problem can be looked at from a point of emotion and a point of fact.

Emotion involves placing your personal experience in the mix and applying it to the population at large. Its a logical error.

I have never been protected by the police either, does not mean no one else has. I have never been protected by or protected others with a firearm. Still does not extend to the general population.

By the time I was 21 I was a senior and lived off campus. I would have no problem with a person who passes the CCW process in NC carrying a concealed weapon anywhere.

That is where this will end up. 50 state ccw with very limited restrictions on no carry locations. The 10 years of data with millions of people support this direction.

[oneshooter]

283. Can you cite to proof this statement?

"See Brame, Crystal, and hundreds of thousands of others in this country who were shot by those who were judged to be competent enough to be issued a badge or a concealed carry permit."

In what time frame did you get your figures " hundreds of thousands of others"?

Are you against LE carrying firearms "competent enough to be issued a badge"?

How would you judge a person "competent enough " to be allowed a firearm?

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[DWC]

223. Concealed means Concealed

Just like hidden means hidden. Unless it is really needed, no one else should ever know it is there. Now, IF someone comes on a college campus in Texas with the intent to commit a violent crime, they can be assured their actions will be met with deadly force - legally - and from some of the most unexpected sources.

Semper Fi,
DWC
www.thepistolpad.com

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bozita]

7. Sandbags, lots and lots of sandbags!

[CTyankee]

8. I dunno. Kiss them? Shower them with rose petals?

[Swede]

14. Other: move to a sane part of the world.

Kids with guns not good.

[slackmaster]

15. "Kids" can't get concealed weapons permits in Texas, or any other state

The minimum age is 21.

[pnwmom]

20. 21 year olds haven't finished their brain development -- in particular

the part of the brain that prevents, in most people, impulsive, violent behavior. And 21 year olds who are still in college are surrounded by a binge drinking culture beyond anything non-college students experience.

Alcohol plus guns is a very nasty combination.

[slackmaster]

33. I've never taught professionally, but I think if I observed a student acting drunk in my class,

...I'd do something about it immediately.

[readmoreoften]

44. It's not always permissible. I teach at a well-administered uni, but I have colleagues

who have been reprimanded for kicking drunk or delusional/psychotic students from class. (Goes back to that "students paid for the right to be there, just shut up and do your job" attitude we get. )

[jpak]

49. So you would not be a target in a campus shoot out - the faculty who would be the targets

do not want this

yup

[pnwmom]

131. I'm less worried about drunk shooters in math class and more worried

about drunks at parties. Or about a student's roommate keeping an accessible gun in the dorm room.

http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2011/02/guns_at_college_father_of_girl.php

Ashley Cowie, a sophomore at Florida State University, was shot and killed last month after an AK-47 accidentally went off at a party at a property housing fraternity brothers. Clearly, firearms and college parties don't mix well, but a bill introduced last month would allow students at Florida state colleges to openly have firearms on campus if they have the proper permits. Cowie's father, Robert, offered tearful testimony this week urging against the passage of the bill.
Ashley died on January 9th after 20-year-old Evan Wilhelm began brandishing an AK-47 during the party. The weapon accidentally discharged and hit Ashley in the chest. Her twin sister Amy tried to perform CPR to save Ashley, but she died at the scene. The bullet also hit another student in the wrist after exiting Ashley's body.

Only days later, state Senator Greg Evers (R-Crestview) introduced a bill that would allow students to carry concealed firearms on public college campuses. Twenty-four states forbid students from bringing concealed weapons on campus, while 23 leave it up to the individual schools. Two other states do not allow any citizens to carry a concealed weapon. According to Business Week, only ten schools in Utah and two other schools in America allow students to bring concealed weapons on campus.

Robert Cowie, Ashley's father, offered testimony this week in front of lawmakers about why such a bill should not be passed.

SNIP

[one-eyed fat man]

168. Why do you keep ignoring the facts?

This all happened off campus. The rules in Florida off campus have about as much sway as the color of the towels in your bathroom.

Some drunken idiot shot her with a rifle at a party OFF CAMPUS. You could build fortress walls a thousand feet high, make all the students and faculty go to class naked so they could not hide anything and it would make absolutely ZERO difference on anything that happened off campus except maybe a little less disappointment...

[friendly_iconoclast]

209. You keep bringing up an off-campus shooting as if it were relevant. Why is that?

I suspect it is because you cannot provide examples of problems at colleges that already allow this...

[RKP5637]

36. +1, n/t

[Name removed]

97. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rl6214]

130. Why is it then, that every police dept in the nation

will take 21yos into their programs, because the are undeveloped and dangerous mentally?

[Union Scribe]

176. Are you implying that the same person might at age 21

commit a murder that they wouldn't have a year or two later just because of brain development?

And, if young adults are so dangerously underdeveloped, what other freedoms should we take away from them, in the interests of society?

[PavePusher]

220. And just think of the ones that currently have permits...

Just random time-bombs, every one of 'em, I tell ya.

Dere orta be a law.....

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

24. Other: start firing the CVs and doing house shopping. -nt

[petronius]

25. Teach your classes rigorously, treat your students fairly and courteously, and

watch for signs of depression, anger, stress, or other intellectual/emotional turmoil among your students and colleagues.

In other words, do exactly what I presume you do now...

[readmoreoften]

47. Unfortunately, you can't look for signs of stress or turmoil with class sizes of 300-400.

I already know that I have students with severe mental problems. They tell me themselves during office hours. But in the large classes you can't get to know these at-risk students very well. You're also not close enough physically to read their facial expressions.

[petronius]

74. My point was that there's no need to change anything. When you do become

aware of students in distress you make the appropriate response, but I wasn't suggesting that you need to make any new effort to study the current mental state of each and every student (assuming that you are now a normally observant and conscientious teacher).

As others have pointed out in this thread, the students who actually have permits and choose to exercise the right are likely far less of a concern than non-permitted students who break for whatever reason and commit acts of violence. Assuming that you don't feel any undue concern about the latter group, I can't see that the change in the CCW law should produce additional worry...

[Name removed]

102. Deleted message

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[Hangingon]

197. Thank you. Sane advice.

[Travelman]

28. "Other"

Do nothing different.

The professor in question isn't even going to know if anyone has their weapon on them in class because Texas law requires complete concealment. If you don't conceal your weapon properly, then you're in some serious trouble in Texas.


Regardless, this entire OP is based on a ludicrously false premise that someone with a carry permit is going to just start shooting just because some college professor talks about some controversial subject. That's not going to happen. That's an irrational fear with utterly no basis in reality whatsoever. People with carry permits are not going to just start shooting up a classroom because they don't like the subject matter. The weapon does not come out unless they can genuinely show in a court of law that their lives were in imminent danger. Can't do that, and it turns from self-defense into murder very, very quickly. No one with a carry permit is going to take that chance over some difference of opinion on biology.


You should go and look up the statistics on people with carry permits who actually use guns to commit crimes (or indeed commit crimes at all). Hint: on sheer numbers alone, a police officer is more likely to commit a crime with a gun than a civilian with a carry permit.

[readmoreoften]

50. That is not any way what this OP is based on.

This OP is based on the premise that if someone who is mentally disturbed starts shooting in a large classroom, other CC students might exacerbate the situation, which is the position of the campus police themselves.

It is go to know that there is severe penalty in Texas for even showing your weapon if you carry one.

And its not ludicrous to think that a student will become violent in class over subject matter. It's actually a fairly common occurrence.

[Travelman]

55. If you found that in the OP, I sure wish you would point it out to me

"This OP is based on the premise that if someone who is mentally disturbed starts shooting in a large classroom...."

I just went back and read it again, just to make sure I had not missed something critical, and I still don't see where that is the basis of the OP at all. There is discussion of conservative elements on campus, liberal elements on campus, and then the OP launches directly into "in light of this legislation, what should be done?" Nowhere in any of the OP do I see anything remotely like "if someone decides to shoot up the classroom and someone else with a legal weapon blows them away, then what happens?" There is an automatic presumption there that because someone has a weapon, that means that they will start shooting, presumably triggered by some difference of opinion over biology.

I have yet to see a college student become violent in class over the subject matter. I'm sorry, but I don't buy that this is a "common occurrence." Perhaps we have different definitions of "violent," but I've never seen or even heard of anything that even vaguely resembles violence solely because of the subject matter in a college classroom.

[readmoreoften]

64. I know its what the OP meant because I WROTE the OP.

And as a college professor, I'm speaking of my own experience and the experience of colleagues that I speak with every day: these things that we discuss every day.

I have seen and heard of students knock over chairs over abortion, threatening classes with mass death over religious delusions, and there have been numerous threats on campus against LGBT students and faculty and threats against multicultural studies. Of course these are not "solely because of the subject matter", the general level of disturbance in the psyche of the violent actor would also have something to do with it.

[one-eyed fat man]

174. You may have written the OP

But as a college professor, you failed to communicate effectively. If your only response to his criticism that what you stated was not in the OP was that you wrote it and you know what you meant, then by default, the communication was faulty and you should admit you critic is correct.

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[oneshooter]

105. Why don't you ask teachers in the 70 or so schools

in 3 (I believe there are more) states that have allowed concealed carry for the last 40 or so years about all of the shootings that have happened?

Washington state

Alaska

Utah

If you are really interested in finding the facts.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[jp11]

31. Other: Teach as they would normally.

If that answer isn't the one that sits well with you then you must make the choices to enact one that does. From moving to another state/county, teaching something else that makes you feel less uncomfortable, water down your content/material, buy body armor, get a gun and train to use it etc.

People can either let their fears change their behavior or not, there are varying degrees to what might be 'practical fear' and what is 'impractical fear' but what ultimately matters is how the fear affects the person who has to deal with it. Whatever other people think of their fear is irrelevant, unless they understand and sympathize,then support the person through whatever choices/actions they seek in dealing with that fear.

[readmoreoften]

52. Very good response. Thank you.

[RagAss]

35. Put a grenade in their pen holder and say...Hello Class, welcome to Philosophy 101 !

[kenny blankenship]

57. Pull the pin and hold onto it for the whole lecture

that way nobody will get the idea that they can take a free potshot at you. Even in dying you can retaliate.
If it's true that "an armed society is a polite society", then it's the only way, under the circumstances, to be fully POLITE.

[readmoreoften]

69. I like that idea.

[jpak]

37. Include a gun ban in your syllabus with an automatic flunk if carry provision

Don't like it - don't take the class

Find yourself another college/university

yup

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

195. And get yourself fired...real smart move on your part

[Warren Stupidity]

38. Everyone gets an A.

[TBF]

79. lol - that's what I'd do :) nt

[jpak]

48. End all face-to-face encounters with students - teach on-line, lecture by remote video, Skype, etc.

yup

[jpak]

53. Post the names and photos of students with gun permits outside your classroom

and present them in PowerPoint every class

yup

[xchrom]

59. +1

[rl6214]

133. Concealed carry means CONCEALED

how about we post the pictures of everyone opposed to concealed carry in the ladies room?

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Hangingon]

198. Where are you going to get this information?

[Taverner]

54. Two words: Kevlar Vest

[Sancho]

56. RUN!!!

Exams will change forever!

[Upton]

60. Other: lighten up

and lay off the hand wringing...

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

61. They won't know... concealed means concealed.

In fact, in Texas, it's unlawful for a concealed firearm to be visible... even the imprint of it through tight clothing.
Perhaps you sould read more often.

[jpak]

63. The University should post the name and photos of everyone that has a conceal weapon permit

Everyine has a right to know who is carrying or not

yup

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

71. You and your wannabe perceived rights.

:eyes:

I think somebody's just jealous that their "rights" are imaginary. :rofl:

[jpak]

84. UT professors have the right to run their classrooms as they see fit

no guns on campus

yup

[rl6214]

136. The UT system is a public system

and if the public says it should allow concealed carry then the public is right.

[GreenStormCloud]

94. You don't have a right to know who has a CHL.

In Texas the list is NOT published. The University itself won't know.

[oneshooter]

106. Not legal under Texas law. Strike 100+ please come again. n/t

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[rl6214]

135. Everyone has a right to know who opposes concealed carry

and they should post the photos of everyone opposed with yellow ribbons on each one.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Callisto32]

180. You still haven't articulated...

A single test for determining whether or not something is a right.

Remember, good theories describe the UNIVERSE.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

196. Not possible, any other anti rights fantasies?

[Hangingon]

199. Lets also post the names of all those students with problems...

like PTSD, mental problems, radical views. These are the people who are causing the trouble right?

[readmoreoften]

66. Yeah, I read enough thanks.

I'm not sure exactly how being unaware of who has a weapon helps me in a emergency, though.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

70. It's not necessarily supposed to help you...

the idea is *self defense*...

If someone defending themself can also happen to help you, then great.
But a private citizen is not an cop. They are not supposed to come charging in to save the day
Self defense.

[Callisto32]

181. But you are ALWAYS unaware of who has a weapon.

If the person carrying doesn't want you to know, you won't regardless of the legal status of such activity.

[Iris]

68. Georgia almost passed a similar law.

My plan was to get a permit, buy a gun, learn to use it, and take it to class every day. At the beginning of each class, I'd take it out and place it on the podium (which I don't really use) as part of my prep for starting class.

And I'm a serious pacifist. I'd be happy to never purchase a gun in my whole life, but if worse came to worse...

[Shagbark Hickory]

75. yeah right.

if worse comes to worse, you'll be able to react in time and shoot the gunman.
It is because of this myth we have this problem to begin with.

[Iris]

78. Actually, I never really considered shooting anyone.

I was thinking it would be more like a statement. I know, it's absurd, but I'm the kind of instructor that's known to care a great deal about my students and I thought it would just add to the absurdity.

[Shagbark Hickory]

83. LOL well you're not going to stop an armed gunman with absurdity.

A simple can of mace or pepper spray, IMO, much better plan.
Lowers the odds they will hit what they're aiming at.
Less hesitation in using it.

[Iris]

121. I know, I know.

:)

[PavePusher]

222. It happens with some frequency, as has been demonstrated to you before, IIRC.

Your blindness to reality not withstanding.

[GreenStormCloud]

96. That would be illegal.

Concealed means C-O-N-C-E-A-L-E-D. What part of concealed is difficult to understand? If you take the gun out an put it on the podium then you are guilty of brandishing. That can carry some serious jail time.

[Iris]

122. yeah, it's much better to just live in intimidation and fear, never knowing if the person you are

dealing with is armed. That's a great way to go through life.

[one-eyed fat man]

172. Odds are you are interacting daily with people who are armed

Unless you are an utter recluse, you are likely in the presence of an armed person sometime or another in your daily travels. Some of them you may suspect of being armed by the nature of their profession. You probably expect the detective or policeman in plain clothes to be armed if you know that's who they are but likely you don't even notice.

Many business have a gun behind the counter, particularly if they are NOT some big chain.

So, are you living "in intimidation and fear, never knowing if the person you are dealing with is armed?"

[Callisto32]

182. You may have done business with me, once.

I was polite, and if I got too much change, I gave it back. Oh, and I told you to have a nice day, and "thank you." Oh, and I was carrying the whole time. You never knew, and never felt threatened.

[GreenStormCloud]

205. I don't worry if the people I am dealing with are legally armed.

If they have their CHLs and are armed I am cool with it. Of course, I won't know that they are armed because it will be concealed but that's OK. You worry too much.

[oneshooter]

108. In Texas you would be arrested and jailed.

Brandishing a weapon is again the law.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[rl6214]

137. concealed carry means concealed

displaying your weapon like that is against the law and cause to have your license revoked and jail time.

[RSillsbee]

171. In many states doing what you suggest w/ intent to intimidate

is called felony menacing and can get you a year or two in the pokey

[PavePusher]

221. That would qualify as brandishing....

and is illegal pretty much everywhere in the U.S.

You need to study up on gun laws rather a bit more before you buy one, and most certainly before you start to carry it.

[saras]

73. Wear a suicide vest

What the instructors, and administrators, should do is wear about ten pounds of plastic explosive, so that no sane person would ever shoot them without using a sniper rifle from a long distance.

Mutually assured destruction.

[oneshooter]

109. The ownership of explosives is a serious crime.

Having them on campus is even more serious, threatening people with it gets you 10 more years.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[Name removed]

120. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Callisto32]

183. Shooting platique=hole-y plastique.

[Cid_B]

76. Ask what they are carrying...

.. and compare to what I've got with me or maybe my next purchase?

Secondly, it is bigoted as hell of you to assume that all us crazy vets are PTSDed out of our gourds and you are just one page of Howard Zinn away from a face full of hollow point.

Seriously, the idea of living my life in fear like that is just totally foreign to me. How do you get out of bed?

[speltwon]

101. Reminds me of the old Bloom County cartoons

where people were always asking the wheelchair vet character (can't recall name offhand) whether he had PTSD etc. and if he was mentally stable, etc.

[Cid_B]

128. Cutter John...

Closest I could find...

[Name removed]

134. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Hangingon]

200. +1!

[elehhhhna]

77. had TX A&M students carried onj 9/11, they'd have capped a number of

black haired males.

truefact.

[GreenStormCloud]

98. I call BULLSHIT to your "true fact". N/T

[Name removed]

104. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Union Scribe]

177. I don't think you quite grasp what "true" and "fact" mean.

[Callisto32]

184. No.

Our under-developed minds can't handle the concept of "truefact."

Doubleplus goodtalk, that.

[Katya Mullethov]

258. When people ask " How are you ?"

Sometimes I say " Cold ......and indifferent. " .
Perhaps I am , perhaps I am not , perhaps I am just fucking with them ,
perhaps it is just a symptom of getting hammered by the Minitrue .
I do know this to be true . Roughly 3 in 10 start razzing me ,
and questioning my sanity and intelligence , when it is
NOT cold outside .

30 years in retail have taught me that some of those dont know
what indifferent means , but MOST of that group simply didnt
listen to all three words of my sentence . They simply cannot do it .
They will generally conclude that I am quite insane and are very quick
to vocalize their amazing discovery .

[Hoopla Phil]

268. ??????????????????????? Care to explain?

[beevul]

80. Other.

If you're the type to be of an open mind, look at the statistics involved, and draw a logical conclusion from them, and proceed based on those conclusions.


If not, wring your hands and fire off irational emotion laden fact free letters to anyone that will listen.

[Missy Vixen]

86. I'd quit

I understand jobs are hard to find right now, but why make yourself into target practice?

:eyes:

[RKP5637]

243. +1, n/t

[fittosurvive]

87. They should continue do what they are paid to do, or seek an alternative vocation.

[speltwon]

100. They should act like an educated person is SUPPOSED to act

and instead of kneejerking "oh noes... gunz!" do some research and see if there is ANY evidence of additional violence (towards profs or others) on campuses where guns have been allowed. Responsible, educated people who inhabit the reality based community should prefer reality to unfounded fears.

[Callisto32]

185. I attended an upscale, private school.

You know, the kind that the "future" is supposed to come out of. I pulled a dummy 9mm round out of my pocket for a class presentation, once. Should have seen the reaction.

It's like they thought ammunition was dangerous on its own or something. Similar results when I took part in the empty holster protest. When I asked about this the response I got was "well, if you have that stuff, how do I know you don't have a gun."

I tried to explain that while I DO have a gun (a number of them) it/they are at home, where they belong because the university did not allow weapons and I respect private property rights.

I should have said "how do I know YOU don't have a gun..." Probably would have been more effective.

[speltwon]

202. Guns have a talismanic quality with many anti's

They don't understand them, they fear them (and apparently even the ammunition), and they ascribe magical properties to them... It could ... go off somehow!

This is a good example. It's kind of like the fear many bigots have of teh Gay. They fear if they even stand next to them, or god forbid their child does, that teh gay might rub off. If they get married, it will somehow negatively affect THEIR marriage, etc. Ignorance is ignorance and it's kind of funny and sad the way people's attitudes about guns are so steeped in it. "I don't want them around me". "They make me feel uncomfortable" (always with the feelings, etc.)

[DeadEyeDyck]

88. rec

[GreenStormCloud]

89. Nothing need be done. You are hand wringing over nothing. N/T

[Katya Mullethov]

90. Rock , heel to toe , swinging one arm wildly at the elbow

Like the fucking rain man .

[speltwon]

99. They should do what they did when I carried in class...

Nothing different.

[rl6214]

110. Totally dishonest and bullshit poll

YUP

[Ken_Fish]

117. OMG, they should think of the children....(nt)

[lawodevolution]

127. If you are a professor and you don't like this pack your bags and get out

There is nothing special about you, you are not better than those who will happily replace you.

[Name removed]

140. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pnwmom]

143. What if you're a parent and your child is killed by another

drunken student at a college party?

And you don't want your remaining child to have a roommate with a gun in the room? Or to attend parties where other students might be carrying guns?

I guess those parents have no choice, either.

http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2011/02/guns_at_college_father_of_girl.php

[lawodevolution]

144. The drunken party did not occur on campus did it?

[pnwmom]

147. It occurred in a college- approved fraternity. I don't know where it was

located, but it was a college fraternity full of college students. And it could just have easily been a dorm -- under the Texas law.

[Ken_Fish]

149. so do rapes, maybe if we just ban genitals and frat houses

the world will fell safer. 1825 death from alcohol last year where is the outrage?

[pnwmom]

170. You're actually comparing a man's penis to a gun?

Last I checked, guns weren't a human body part.

I am VERY concerned about the deaths from alcohol on college campuses. I'm also concerned about the possibility of even more deaths through the combination of alcohol and guns.

[Ken_Fish]

188. And lots of people were concerned about catchin' the AIDS from a salad bar back in the day

in the lack of knowledge people just let their imagination loose. The lack of "blood in the streets" in CO and UT are the start of what will probably another sample set of data that will be useful in showing that people who CCW offend criminally at a rate a fraction of the population at large.

[pnwmom]

225. Utah colleges have a low rate of drinking compared to the rest of the country.

And Colorado just changed last year to allowing this. Wait a few years and see how this works out once more and more students have guns on campus.

[PavePusher]

232. Got numbers to back that up? n/t

[pnwmom]

237. No, and that's the whole point. There are no numbers because

guns have only recently been allowed on any Colorado campuses.

[PavePusher]

256. My apology, I meant numbers on Utah college drinking rates.

Although, since UT colleges have allowed guns for somewhat longer than Colorado, I would expect similar non-results.

Really, do you think that a law against carrying a gun with criminal intent actually makes criminals stop carrying? Since the obvious answer is "No", why should lawful Citizens be rendered less able to defend themselves? Will that in any way aid in stopping criminals?

[pnwmom]

262. I don't think the problem would be hardened criminals with guns.

I think the problem with allowing guns on campus would be accidents, loss of temper, and other unplanned shootings, by young people with easy access to guns and alcohol. With binge drinking occurring with 40% of college students, that seems like a dumb place to allow guns.

http://www.unf.edu/dept/healthpromotions/Mental%20Health/College%20Drinking%20Statistics.html

Alcohol Consumption: About four in five of all college students drink, including nearly 60 percent of students age 18 to 20.
Binge Drinking: Approximately two of every five college students of all ages—more than 40 percent—have reported engaging in binge drinking at least once during the past 2 weeks. However, colleges vary widely in their binge drinking rates—from 1 percent to more than 70 percent (Wechsler et al., 1994, 1998, 2000b and NSDUH 2006).

SNIP

The Columbia Center found:

Twenty-three percent of full time students meet the medical threshold for substance abuse or dependence. That’s 2 ½ times the rate in the general population.

[PavePusher]

265. They have that access to guns and alcohol now, yet such incidents as you suggest...

are very rare.

Why do you think that people carrying legally would add significantly to any existing problem?

[pnwmom]

273. Not in Utah, where the drinking rate among college students is very low.

And the law in Colorado only changed midway 2010 -- hardly long enough to see what the effects will be as more and more guns are brought onto campuses.

[PavePusher]

276. Ummm, they do have the access.

They can get the guns and/or the alcohol any time they want to.

Mostly, they chose not to (edit:...do both at the same time). Again, why do you think legal carriers elsewhere would behave differently? It has been shown many times here that legal gun carriers, especially those that get a permit, are one of the least-criminal sub-sets of society.

[pnwmom]

277. Why would Utah students suddenly start drinking more alcohol?

Their rates are currently far lower than in other states.

I don't think most students would deliberately, thoughtfully, choose to drink and shoot. However, people who are drinking do lots of things they wouldn't do if they were sober -- including misusing guns. So students are more at risk from unplanned, accidental, and impulsive shootings on campuses where alcohol and drug use is higher.

[PavePusher]

278. O.K., I can only assume at this point that you are being purposely obtuse.

Sorry, I don't play that game. Have a good night.

[pnwmom]

280. Projecting a little? n/t

[speltwon]

286. Are you in WA? I see your name is pnwmom. Here in WA, they have CCW on campus

It doesn't create a problem. You are doing a lot of hypothesizing about what could happen. Why not look at what DOES happen? Here in WA? Nothing

[pnwmom]

263. Utah college students drink far less than students in other states.

Not surprising, since so many are practicing LDS.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/695194216/Utah-student-drinking-low-but-still-worries-legislators.html

College students in Utah consume far less alcohol than their national counterparts, but the average one drink per week is still a concern for state legislators.
"There may not be a lot of people here who drink, but it's a problem as long as there are any kids involved in this type of behavior," said Rep. Carol Spackman Moss, D-Holladay.

SNIP

Nationally, 49 percent of full-time college students binge drink and/or use prescription and illegal drugs, according to 2006 statistics compiled by the National Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse at Columbia University. Researchers found that between 1993 and 2001, there was no real decline in the number of students who drink and binge drink on college campuses.

During the same time, prescription drug abuse, including painkillers like Percocet, Lortab and OxyContin, increased by nearly 350 percent on America's college campuses. Various other drug abuse also increased substantially.

"It's a dramatically different story reflected in Utah data," said Lucille Stoddard, Utah's associate commissioner for academic affairs. She said student services administrators across the state have been concerned about the amount of drinking on Utah's campuses even though the numbers are low.

[PavePusher]

264. Thank you.

Interesting data, although there seem to be a few flaws in the survey, or how it is being reported.

Something to ponder.

[Hangingon]

201. You must not read the gun threads.

People are always comparing guns and penises

[GreenStormCloud]

224. Such parties are almost always off campus. N/T

[one-eyed fat man]

236. Say what?????

"I don't know where it was..."

You mean you did not read and/or comprehend the story in your own link?

Several times it has been pointed out, to you specifically, that the Florida incident you keep bringing up, occurred OFF CAMPUS, at a party neither held by nor promoted by the college, at a location beyond the control of the college.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=383983&mesg_id=384336

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=383983&mesg_id=384359

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=383983&mesg_id=384369

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=383983&mesg_id=384584

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=383983&mesg_id=384637

How could you have missed it?

[Ken_Fish]

145. What if the police in Wilmington NC shoot your kid in the face with an MP5

because the sound of a door getting kicked in sounds like a gun.. Oh wait this actually happened too.

We should ban police and german sub machine guns.. Ignore the responsible parties?

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=news/local&id=6018018

[pnwmom]

148. The police are much less likely to be drunk when they're wielding their weapons.

And more likely to have had significant training.

College students have much higher drinking rates than other people of the same age; and much more binge drinking.

[Ken_Fish]

Well that kid is still dead.. And I bet more students are kiled by police than

ccw aged 21 - 23 kill in a given year. I bet there are lots of drunk people at home right now, NOT shooting anyone.

[pnwmom]

152. So what? We shouldn't have any deaths of innocent students by police

OR of innocent students by other students with guns.

[Ken_Fish]

154. Again its drama, there are 1825 corpses last year from booze..275,000lbs of dead flesh

so where is all the concern. Are we banning alcohol again?

Its a non event except for the 8 antis left with any political power or press to publish them anymore.

[friendly_iconoclast]

212. If you're so very worried about the deaths of students, you'd be working to ban cars.

They kill thousands of young drivers each year.

But then, that would require a dispassionate look at statistics, and we can't have any of that now, can we?

[Callisto32]

186. HAHAHA.

Police firearms training and "significant" put together like that...nice.

Say, I've got a bridge in Pike County....

[Name removed]

146. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pnwmom]

150. It isn't irrational to think that guns don't belong in a situation

where alcohol is frequently abused -- such as in dorms and frats on college campuses.

[Ken_Fish]

151. I wonder if police (21 - 28) officers ever drink?

when they do are they out murdering people?

[pnwmom]

155. Not when they're on duty, hopefully. And they're not assigned

roommates randomly, as college students often are.

[Ken_Fish]

157. You can swap room mates if a problem crops up..

not throwing in on the weed, playing PS3 while one is trying to get some leg, and such can all lead to a swap. If they can not settle a 9mm or 45ACP discussion the RA can work it out.

[pnwmom]

163. It could very well be too late by the time a problem "crops up."

I wouldn't want to find out that my student's roommate had a gun AFTER it had gone off in the room.

[Ken_Fish]

187. Or they had gotten AIDS on the salad bar. remember when that was all the rage

and aids from mosquitoes. People just invented risk when there was really none.

Its a non event. If people want to do something useful they should work on alcohol related student death.

[Name removed]

156. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[speltwon]

287. At many, if not most colleges, most parties occur OFF campus

where CCW is already allowed. So, better not let your kid go to any off campus parties. And good luck on that

[RSillsbee]

167. Other: Move on w/ life because nothing is really going to change NT

[Hoopla Phil]

173. I guess that would be up to them wouldn't it?

On second thought - I wonder how many "students" cannot pass the final exams. . . .

[Callisto32]

179. Carry on normally.

Statistics suggest that this is the only rational course of action. Do you worry about being struck by lightning? No. I put "getting shot by a ccw holder" in the same category of worry.

[spin]

203. Get a concealed carry permit, practice a lot and carry...

No big deal.

If an instructor is afraid of people legally carrying firearms, my advise is for him to to study the statistics. Any competent instructor should be able to figure out that people who have concealed carry licenses present no significant danger to those around them.

For example the instructor could look at the monthly report the state of Florida produces on concealed carry at:
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/stats/cw_monthly.html

If he does he will find that in a 23 year period of time Florida has issued 1,918,601 concealed weapons permits of which 786,884 are currently valid. Only 168 licenses have been revoked because a crime using a firearm was committed after the license had been issued.

An instructor is far more likely to get hit by lightning than shot by someone with a concealed carry permit.

[friendly_iconoclast]

210. Now, that's just wrong of you. We know the Prohis prefer heartrending stories to statistics.

They must- just look at all the handwringing and underwear soiling on this thread.

[ileus]

226. Teach...

[ProgressiveProfessor]

229. Tell them after class that their concealed weapon is not quite concealed

The student should appreciate the courtesy.

[Glassunion]

244. I would choose #11: Grow up.

The sky is not falling.

I would just recommend doing what they pay you to do... Teach. Nothing will change.

[Atypical Liberal]

245. I voted "other"

I voted "other".

The obvious answer as to what instructors should do is "nothing".

We have data on the conviction rates for CCW permit holders in Texas going back a decade:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=374332

The data shows that for a whole slew of crimes, everything from public lewdness to homicide, CCW permit convictions run about .25% of crimes. That means that people with CCW permits are less likely to be convicted of crimes than your average non-CCW-permit-holding citizen.

CCW permit holders are hyper-law abiding people who have been in their classes all along. Instructors don't need to do anything differently.

[GreenStormCloud]

250. Correction. That is .025%. The real rate is 1/10th what you posted. N/T

[Euromutt]

253. Other: chill the fuck out already

Those individuals among your students who are inclined to homicide would have been carrying illegally already, given that there's nothing to physically stop them from doing so. Thus, the only people who are going to be carrying as a result of the passage of this law are those who wouldn't present a threat anyway.

And they might just save your ass if a "dynamic incident" arises. Sure, it's never happened before, but that's because "active shooters" seem to prefer campuses where nobody can shoot back.

[Taitertots]

272. They should be happy because CPL holders have lower than average violent crime rates n/t

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

285. If it bothers them they should quit. Let 'em go flip burgers or something. Screw 'em...

I think people who are not liberal to respect all our rights shouldn't be teaching and shaping our nation.