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GUNS IN THE NEWS--February 5, 2004

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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 08:58 AM
Original message
GUNS IN THE NEWS--February 5, 2004
As CO Liberal sez:
Please try to adhere to the following voluntary guidelines, in order that we can have an orderly discussion of gun-related news topics:
1 - Feel free to add any CURRENT stories to this thread by replying to this message. In order to be considered current, stories should have been originally posted on the Internet within the previous 24 hours, or provide follow-up to a story that was previously posted on the J/PS board. On Mondays (since many people do not log in to DU over the weekend), stories can be posted from Saturday, Sunday, or Monday.
2 - Both pro-gun and anti-gun stories, editorials, and press releases are welcome in this thread, as long as they're current. Please do not post links to items from a few years back that support your position.
3 - Bear in mind that any links to extremely right-wing sites (such as Newsmax, CNS, or the Washington Times) or intentionally pro-gun or pro-control sites (such as the NRA or the Brady Campaign) are not considered reliable sources by many DU-ers. If at all possible, try to find a link for your story from a more mainstream source, such as a general-circulation newspaper or magazine site. If you choose to use a slanted site, be prepared for any negative feedback you may receive.
4 - Do not change story titles. In other words, if the Oskosh Gazette's web site runs a story titled "Two Killed in Holdup", the title of your message should read "Two Killed in Holdup". Don't change it to "Gun Owner Kills Two People", or anything else that changes the meaning of the story.
5 - If it's not clear from the title where the story occurred, add the city, state, or country in parentheses after the title.
6 - Comment on a story by replying to that story.
7 - Please direct your comments to the story, rather than attacking the person posting the story or any person responding to the story. In accordance with DU rules, any messages that appear to be personal attacks against another DU-er or violations of any other DU rule will be reported to the moderators.
8 - If you object to these guidelines, do everyone else a favor and go to another thread.

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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 09:01 AM
Response to Original message
1. Gangs run gun pipeline from Delta to Chicago
"Each time Police Supt. Philip J. Cline is asked why Chicago has so many murders every year--a nation-leading 598 in 2003--he gives the same answer.
"It's simple: gangs, guns and drugs."
As Chicago toughened local restrictions on owning and selling firearms, gangs began turning to the homeland of their grandparents for firepower. Across the South, gun laws are much more lenient than in the North. Anyone with a Mississippi state ID can walk into a dealer's shop and get as many guns as desired, without a waiting period. In Illinois, buyers need a firearm owner's identification card and must wait 72 hours to obtain the gun.
The result has been a pipeline of Chicagoans going south, recruiting family members or acquaintances to buy guns for them, then running them back to Chicago to fuel the violence on the streets.
Police say thousands of guns a year are trafficked from Mississippi to Chicago. They seize a tiny fraction of them, said Sgt. Ken Barnas, who runs the Police Department unit that traces guns used in crimes. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/chitribts/20040205/ts_chicagotrib/gangsrungunpipelinefromdeltatochicago
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ClintonTyree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. In Florida...........
they make you wait 3 days before you can pick up your FIRST handgun. After that intial check (which is VERY suspect in many cases) you can buy as many as you want with no waiting period and no checks in place to see where those guns are going.
Of course the NRA types around here hate even those laws and deem them unconstitutional. It's a scary place to live. Just about everyone has a handgun in their glovebox down here and you can get shot at by pissing someone off in traffic.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. In Virginia
some years ago they instituted a "one gun purchase a month" law.....and the gun nuts howled and screamed.....and are still working to overturn it..
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Withergyld Donating Member (685 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. In Arizona you can buy as many as you want
I bought three in January
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fishbone Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #8
25. Cool cannon picture!
Is that your cannon firing? I always wanted to get into artilery. That looks cool!

fishbone
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Withergyld Donating Member (685 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. The cannon is not mine
It belongs to one of my friends. It shoots golf balls or homemade mini balls. The puff of "smoke" in the backgrouns was a milk jug full of water.
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fishbone Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. That's freaking awesome!
You bullseyed a gallon jug of milk with a cannon? Freaking cool, dude!

I've seen trubchets (medieval siege engine) launch gallon jugs of water some 100+ yards, and that's cool, too.

fishbone
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Withergyld Donating Member (685 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Here are a couple of movies
Edited on Thu Feb-05-04 12:56 PM by Withergyld
from Thanksgiving.
This is the clip I took the picture from.
http://mail4.cableaz.com/~mjbvrb/cannon/waterjug.MOV
This is shooting an EMPTY propane tank with one of the mini balls.
http://mail4.cableaz.com/~mjbvrb/cannon/tank.MOV
This is the hole in the propane tank from the lead mini ball. The remains of the min ball can be seen to the right of the tank.
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Withergyld Donating Member (685 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #1
15. This is already illegal
"The result has been a pipeline of Chicagoans going south, recruiting family members or acquaintances to buy guns for them, then running them back to Chicago to fuel the violence on the streets."
It is called a straw purchase.

Also it is illegal to sell a firearm to a person who is not a resident of your State unless it is transfered through a licensed dealer.

"(B1) To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his or her state, if the buyer is not prohibited by law from receiving or possessing a firearm, or to a licensee in any state. A firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector. <18 U. S. C 922( a)( 3) and (5), 922( b)( 3), 27 CFR 178.29>

(B2) From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?

A person may only buy a firearm within the person's own state, except that he or she may buy a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any state, provided the sale complies with state laws applicable in the state of sale and the state where the purchaser resides. <18 U. S. C 922( a)( 3) and (5), 922( b)( 3), 27 CFR 178.29>

(B3) May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-state source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the
purchaser's own state?

A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-state source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's state of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer. <18 U. S. C 922( a)( 3) and (5), 922( b)( 3), 27 CFR 178.29>"

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b1

If this is what is happening, then the purchasers need to be prosecuted


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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
4. Wife in Divide murder-suicide wanted divorce (CO)
This happened not far from where I'm sitting right now. A couple united forever, thanks to a gun. - Wayne

* * * * *

Wife in Divide murder-suicide wanted divorce

By ANSLEE WILLETT - THE GAZETTE

DIVIDE -
Martha Ross’ longtime friend came from Texas last week to help her through marital problems.

She last saw Ross alive about 5:30 a.m. Tuesday after they talked upstairs in the couple’s three-story home on Matthew Road off U.S. Highway 24 in Divide.

Ross, 65, went downstairs to talk with her husband, John, and her friend went to sleep.

About 4½ hours later, the friend went into the kitchen, where she spotted blood on the wood floor.

<more>

http://www.gazette.com/display.php?sid=798313
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
5. Husband & Wife Found Dead, Apparent Murder-Suicide (Las Vegas, NV)
Yet another one. Therre's a very telling statistic in the last paragraph. - Wayne

* * * * *

Husband & Wife Found Dead, Apparent Murder-Suicide

A local couple is dead this morning after what police are calling a murder suicide on the city's East side. Officers found a woman and man shot to death inside a home near Saint Louis and McLeod last night. Investigators believe the man shot his wife, and then turned the gun on himself.

Police are still trying to figure out what exactly happened in the argument that led up to the shooting. Metro officers do tell us there were other family members inside the house when the apparent murder-suicide took place.

Police say it's too soon to know if the couple had a history of domestic violence. Statistics show between three and four million women are battered each year in America.

<more>

http://www.kvbc.com/Global/story.asp?S=1629717&nav=15MVKcox
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
6. FOLLOW-UP: Gun fired on bus turned in (IL)
Edited on Thu Feb-05-04 09:51 AM by CO Liberal
A follow-up to a story from last week - Wayne

* * * * *

Gun fired on bus turned in

By Kevin Simpson
ksimpson@pantagraph.com

BLOOMINGTON --
A handgun thought to have been accidentally fired on a school bus last week has been turned over to the Bloomington Police Department.

A relative of a 10-year-old boy accused of stealing the weapon found it outdoors in the 1600 block of West Olive Street and gave it to police Tuesday night, authorities said.

The boy and an 11-year-old schoolmate each face felony weapons charges stemming from the Jan. 26 incident. The 10-year-old is accused of stealing the gun from a relative's home before taking it to Sheridan Elementary School.

While on a bus ride home, the 10-year-old gave the gun to the 11-year-old, police said. The gun fired accidentally as the 10-year-old grabbed the other boy's arm, police said.

<more>

http://www.pantagraph.com/stories/020504/new_20040205020.shtml
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
7. Teen friend charged in boy's shooting (OH)
"BRIMFIELD TWP. - A 12-year-old Portage County boy was in intensive care at Akron Children's Hospital on Wednesday after being shot by a 14-year-old friend outside the foster home where the suspect lives, police said.
Brimfield Township Police Chief Charles L. Garver said Tuesday night's shooting occurred in the snow-covered front yard of the foster home in the 4700 block of Mogadore Road. Citing juvenile confidentiality requirements, Garver would not release the name of the suspect or the victim."

http://www.ohio.com/mld/ohio/news/local/7879903.htm
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
9. Teammate: Williams once aimed gun at me (NJ)
Yet another of those "law-abiding gun owners we don't have to worry about". - Wayne

* * * * *

Teammate: Williams once aimed gun at me

Thursday, February 05, 2004

BY MATTHEW REILLY
Star-Ledger Staff


Six months before he shot and killed a limousine driver at his Hunterdon County estate, former Nets star Jayson Williams allegedly killed his own dog with a shotgun and then threatened a house guest with the same fate if he didn't clean up the dog's remains.

But the alleged incident, described by another former Nets player, Dwayne Schintzius, will not be heard by jurors in Williams' aggravated-manslaughter trial, which begins next week. A judge in Somerville ruled yesterday that it is inadmissible as evidence because of its prejudicial nature.

Acting on an anonymous tip, Hunterdon County investigators tracked down Schintzius -- Williams' teammate on the Nets in the early 1990s --in Florida and interviewed him about a night of dining and drinking at the Mountain View Chalet with Williams and another friend, Chris Duckrey, on Aug. 8, 2001.

The three men returned to Williams' Alexandria Township estate around 2 a.m. There they found Williams' dog, Zeus, a 130- to 150-pound Rottweiler, waiting in the foyer, court papers said.

<more>

http://www.nj.com/news/ledger/index.ssf?/base/news-13/1075964320322760.xml
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #9
46. Surprised he's not on the NRA board
along with the other tokens...
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Give Them Time.....
They'll get around to it.

:-)
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
10. U.S. man convicted for gun smuggling (Canada)
MOre of them law-abiding gun owners. - Wayne

* * * * *

U.S. man convicted for gun smuggling

A West Virginia man was sentenced to two years in a Canadian jail yesterday after trying to smuggle a loaded semi-automatic handgun and drugs into Canada last month. Howard Luther Karnes III, 44, of Fayetteville, W. Va., pleaded guilty this week in the Ontario Court of Justice to 14 charges, including carrying a concealed weapon and possession of a loaded prohibited firearm and possession of a controlled substance for the purposes of trafficking.

Karnes, a woman and a five-year-old child entered Canada at the Blue Water Bridge Jan. 20. Customs officials became suspicious of him after routine questioning, the Canadian Border Services Agency said in a news release.

When customs inspectors searched Karnes's vehicle, they found a loaded firearm magazine, magic mushrooms and a variety of prescription drugs.

<more>

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/LondonFreePress/News/2004/02/05/336286.html
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
11. 15-Year-Old Brings Gun, Pills To School (AL)
Hmmm, guns and pills ... maybe he was trying to emulate his idol, Rush Limbaugh..... - Wayne

15-Year-Old Brings Gun, Pills To School

POSTED: 8:34 PM CST February 4, 2004

BIRMINGHAM, Ala. --
A 15-year-old Pittman Middle School student has been suspended and is facing two criminal charges.

Police said the boy brought a .22-caliber handgun and loose prescription pills to school Tuesday. He faces two misdemeanor charges for possession and carrying a concealed weapon.

Authorities said that when they recovered the gun, it was not loaded. They're not sure to whom it legally belongs.

<more>

http://www.nbc13.com/news/2819483/detail.html
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
12. College Park man shot, killed on trail near U.S. 1 (MD)
"COLLEGE PARK - A man was fatally shot yesterday morning during a struggle with another man on a College Park bicycle trail near U.S. 1, Prince George's County police said.
About 10:15 a.m., county police received a 911 call from a person reporting hearing a gunshot on the trail near a wooded area and behind townhouses on Berwyn House Road, said Officer Debbi Sabel, a police spokeswoman.
Lamont Whitted, 26, a town resident, was found bleeding from a chest wound and died soon after at Prince George's Hospital Center, she said. "

http://www.sunspot.net/news/yahoo/bal-md.quark05feb05,0,5016364.story?coll=bal-newsaol-headlines
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
13. Gun dealer pleads guilty to state, federal charges (WA)
Did this guy do anything RIGHT???? - Wayne

* * * * *

Gun dealer pleads guilty to state, federal charges

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

BREMERTON, Wash. --
A Bremerton gun dealer has pleaded guilty to state and federal charges that he pocketed sales taxes from gun sales and that he didn't conduct background checks on customers.

Eric Robert Barnes, 44, owner of E & L Enterprises, pleaded guilty in Kitsap County Superior Court on Tuesday to one count of felony theft of sales taxes from weapons he sold at gun shows throughout the Northwest. He agreed to pay nearly $20,000 in restitution and is to be sentenced June 7.

Barnes pleaded guilty to the federal charge - willfully failing to keep required records of a firearms sale - last month. The federal crime carries a maximum of five years in prison and a $250,000 fine; sentencing is set for May 21 in U. S. District Court in Seattle.

Barnes was charged in both the state and federal cases last fall after undercover agents with the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives bought several firearms from him without completing the required paperwork. Barnes also failed to conduct the National Instant Criminal Background Check required in each firearm transaction.

<more>

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/aplocal_story.asp?category=6420&slug=WA%20Gun%20Dealer%20Plea
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. The corrupt gun industry in action
Good thing the GOP is giving asswipes like this immunity from liability law, eh?
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Withergyld Donating Member (685 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. Nice over generalization
First, This is an example of one corrupt dealer.
Second, the Lawful Commerce in Firearms Act would not have protected the dealer from immunity.
Lawsuits could still be filed for the following reasons:
"(i) an action brought against a transferor convicted under section 924(h) of title 18, United States Code, or a comparable or identical State felony law, by a party directly harmed by the conduct of which the transferee is so convicted;

(ii) an action brought against a seller for negligent entrustment or negligence per se;

(iii) an action in which a manufacturer or seller of a qualified product knowingly and willfully violated a State or Federal statute applicable to the sale or marketing of the product, and the violation was a proximate cause of the harm for which relief is sought;

(iv) an action for breach of contract or warranty in connection with the purchase of the product; or

(v) an action for physical injuries or property damage resulting directly from a defect in design or manufacture of the product, when used as intended."
http://www.heritagefund.org/common/legal/docs/S659.pdf
(I tried a link to Thomas but the colon on the end of the URL was doing weird things.)

"Good thing the GOP is giving asswipes like this immunity from liability law, eh?"

Go peddle this trash elsewhere
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. No, an accurate description of scum
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Withergyld Donating Member (685 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. So this is evidence of a conspiracy by the gun industry
to arm criminals???

I don't think so.

:tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat: :tinfoilhat:


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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Nope, just business as usual for a scummy bunch
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. Nobody has proposed immunity from liability for illegal acts
:dunce:
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #20
57. Don't you know that things really are different ...
on the other side of the anti-gun looking glass?
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
16. Physical evidence laid out in trial (TX)
"FORT WORTH - The murder trial of a 30-year-old plumber accused of randomly shooting a stranger with a shotgun turned scientific Wednesday as jurors heard about "back blood spatter," DNA and gunshot residue.
Jurors also saw dozens of pieces of evidence recovered from the pickup of defendant Claude E. Thomas after he and his brother, Billy D. Thomas, were arrested in the Nov. 13, 2002, killing of Eric Baker.
Prosecutors Mike Parrish and Phelesa Guy contend that the Thomas brothers were cruising Fort Worth with 20-gauge and .410-gauge shotguns when they targeted Baker as he walked along the 2000 block of Bomar Avenue."

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/local/7881020.htm
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
18. COTTAGE GROVE: Dispute over dog leads to standoff; no one hurt (MN)
Ah, the benefits of gun ownership....

"Authorities said Leroy McGhee, 25, of Richfield, and a friend entered the home of McGhee's sister in the 8800 block of 92nd Street at about noon. McGhee, apparently upset about a recent argument over the family dog, loaded one bullet into a gun and hit his sister's boyfriend several times in the face, they said.
The Washington County Special Response Team was called, and authorities closed off an area about the size of a city block while they waited for the suspects to come out.
The South Washington County school district was asked to send a bus so students coming home from Armstrong Elementary could wait in a safe place until the standoff ended. Principal Tom Berg decided to keep 12 children there until parents could pick them up."

http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/news/local/7877798.htm
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
23. Gun bill stiffens checks on buyers (VA)
If there's no such thing as a "gun show loophole", then why do they need this law? - Wayne

* * * * *

Gun bill stiffens checks on buyers

Plan affects unlicensed, private sellers at shows

By Hugh Lessig
Daily Press

Published February 5, 2004

RICHMOND --
A controversial bill aimed at providing more background checks at gun shows won narrow approval Wednesday in committee, setting up a full debate on the Senate floor.

Sen. Henry L. Marsh's bill would require all gun show vendors to conduct criminal background checks on their customers. Under current law, licensed gun dealers at shows must do these checks. The bill would expand this to include unlicensed dealers or private sales at gun shows.

The bill cleared the Senate Courts of Justice Committee last month in an 8-7 vote. It then went to the Senate Finance Committee, where members were asked to look at its cost, although an analysis found that the cost could not be determined.

Finance approved it Wednesday in another 8-7 vote.

<more>

http://www.dailypress.com/news/local/dp-54291sy0feb05,0,1710611.story?coll=dp-news-local-final
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. All the Democratic presidential candidates support closing
the gun show loophole, as do a large majority of voters. It's long past overdue.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. But none have the balls to address the real issue
Gun show transactions are a tiny piece of the pie.

Closing the GSL is a smoke-screen to cover lack of initiative to address the entire secondary gun market effectively.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. It's NOT a loophole in the law, CO
Edited on Thu Feb-05-04 12:18 PM by slackmaster
Federal law requiring background checks does not apply to private individuals selling used guns.

As the article states, "Under current law, licensed gun dealers at shows must do these checks." The laws governing a particular transaction that happens to occur at a gun show are exactly the same as the laws governing the same individuals conducting a similar transaction at a location other than a gun show. That's not a loophole.

The "loophole" term offends some of us because it's propagandistic, with the perpetrators pushing toward a slippery slope of a California-like system nationwide.

The article says the proposed system won't "inconvenience" law-abiding citizens, but it doesn't mention the inevitability of SERVICE FEES that will be charged by licensed dealers for conducting the checks. That's not just an inconvenience, it's an expense.

I like my idea of making NICS available for private sellers much better.

BTW - If the VA bill passes, someone who meets a criminal at a gun show and wants to sell that person a gun will simply conduct the transaction later at a different location.

:freak:
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #26
29. And THAT'S The Loophole
"Federal law requiring background checks does not apply to private individuals selling used guns."

AFAIC, background checks should be required for ALL gun sales - new or used, dealer or private.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. That's got to be a world's record stretch for the definition of a word
Edited on Thu Feb-05-04 12:57 PM by slackmaster
The federal government doesn't have the authority to regulate intrastate private sales of used personal property.

Calling that a loophole is like saying the fact that Canadian citizens living in Canada don't pay US income taxes a "loophole" in the federal tax code.

The proposed Virginia statute is political window-dressing. I can't see that it will prevent a single crime.
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #35
37. And I Can't See How It Would INCREASE Crime
Can you?
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. No, it will just encourage private sellers to do business elsewhere
Other than at a gun show, where they would have to pay a fee to sell their own personal property.

Do you see the unintended consequences of this? If anything it will put more private sales in places where government scrutiny is impossible.
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fishbone Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. Exactly so...
Every law that applies outside of a gun show applies inside one. There is no "gun show loophole".

The "loophole" that the anti-gun crowd decries is the fact that a licensed firearm dealer at a gun show is required to run a background check on someone before they can sell a gun to them, but if I, an average joe private citizen bring a gun to a gunshow, I can sell it to anyone there without running a background check.

The reason for this, as was stated, is that the law does not require background checks for gun sales between private individuals

Not only is this as it should be, but for reasons of practicality, there is really no other choice.

If your intent is to stop the private sale of firearms to people who would fail the background check, you can forget it. You can't stop it. Even if such a law were passed, it would be a very simple thing to avoid.

When you go to a gunshow, it is not uncommon at all to find people walking around the show, looking at all the wares, with a rifle slung over their back. A little "flagpole" is stuck down the barrel, with the "flag" proclaiming "For Sale". Anyone who is interested just walks up to the bloke and says, "Hey, how much for the gun?"

Now if you pass a law that says that the fellow selling the gun can't sell it to any other bloke without first running a background check, this is quite easy to avoid. The bloke who wants to buy the gun just says, "Hey, why don't you meet me outside and I'll buy this gun from you".

Now you'll probably think, "Well, I'll just pass a law that says no individual anywhere can sell a gun to anyone without doing a background check!" But how would you possibly enforce such a law? If I sell a gun to someone on a street corner, who's going to know? Even if you have a record that I used to own some particular gun (thanks to the background check that I had to go through when I bought it), if you came looking for it I could always claim that I lost it. Or I gave it away as a gift. Or it was stolen.

The fact is, private firearms sales are damn-near untraceable, so passing laws that put restrictions on them is going to be next-to-useless.

fishbone
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. A Problem That Needs to Be Addressed
The fact is, private firearms sales are damn-near untraceable, so passing laws that put restrictions on them is going to be next-to-useless.

Then we need a way to trace firearm sales. Pure and simple.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Background checks do not help tracing gun sales
No records of transactions ever exist, only records of checks being conducted. I think a lot of people don't understand that, and frankly I'm surprised that you seem to have forgotten that fact, CO.

The original owner of a gun can always be determined by going to the paperwork at the dealer who sold it initially. Subsequent transfers can be traced person to person. Police do that every day with success under the present system. The proposed Virginia statute won't make tracing guns any easier.
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Yes It DOES Make Tracing Guns Easier
By making sure that all transactions are accounted for, and the cops have something to trace.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. The background check system DOES NOT track guns or transfers!!!
NICS is simply a list of prohibited persons. It contains no information whatsoever about the gun or guns being transferred at any time during its operation. The database doesn't have a place to put that information.

There are records of checks that were made, which presently are retained up to 90 days, but those do not even establish that a transfer actually occurred, much less what specific gun or guns were transferred.
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. A Flaw With the Present System
Guns should be able to be traced as simply as cars.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Only registered cars can be traced, cars don't have to be registered,
And that is an entirely different subject than the topic of this thread.
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. But It Can Be Done
Which is the only point I was trying to make.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Sorry, I have to disagree with you on that
Edited on Thu Feb-05-04 02:28 PM by slackmaster
Every proposal to register ALL FIREARMS meets with extreme resistance even here in gun-control-friendly California, and federal law specifically prohibits the feds from creating a registry of all firearms.

It's not going to happen within our lifetimes if ever.
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CO Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. As I Said Before, It CAN Be Done
And until it IS done, we will have a problem with guns in this country, AFAIC.
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Columbia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #48
58. You mean like the Canadian registration system?
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MrSandman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. No the MD and NY fingerprinting.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
30. Chester man pleads guilty in shoot-out with police (PA)
"A Chester man pleaded guilty to two felonies rather than go on trial this week on attempted homicide and other charges stemming from a shoot-out following a police chase in August 2002.
Frisby and another man led officers on a chase near the Highland Gardens section of the city, then crashed his motorcycle and fled across several lanes of traffic, police said. At the median strip, he opened fire at pursuing officers before trying to run across more lanes of traffic, police said."

http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/local/7877394.htm
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
45. Shooter says he cried at news of girl's death (FL)
"BUSHNELL -- For almost two days, Joshua Walsh did not know the shotgun blasts he fired on a rural Sumter County roadside had killed a 5-year-old Leesburg girl.
But as his brother and brother-in-law stood at Walsh's door in Wildwood one Monday morning in February 2003, the horror was there in black-and-white newsprint -- an article about a wild car chase that ended with shots fired and a girl dead.
Walsh's brother Jeremiah "had the newspaper in his hand, and they had the worst look I'd ever seen," Joshua Walsh said through tears at his murder trial on Wednesday. "They just handed me the paper. I read the paper and started sobbing and it just fell out of my hand."
Walsh's emotional testimony was the dramatic highlight Wednesday as both the prosecution and defense rested their cases.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/lake/orl-locroadrage05020504feb05,1,5660295.story?coll=orl-news-headlines-lake
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 03:00 PM
Response to Original message
49. Man enters gun store, apparently kills self (FL)
"DAYTONA BEACH -- An unidentified man was found dead Tuesday evening inside GI Jeff's Army Navy Surplus hours after he entered the shop, loaded a gun and told employees to get out because he planned to kill himself.
All of the buildings within sight of the store were evacuated while investigators sorted out the situation. About three hours after the man entered the shop and loaded a .45-caliber semiautomatic handgun, a Volusia County sheriff's bomb disposal robot, armed with a video camera, relayed pictures of the man lying on the floor to investigators. Minutes later officers with the Daytona Beach police special response team confirmed that he was dead.
Before police went into the store shortly before 6 p.m., investigators had shut down about a quarter-mile of busy International Speedway Boulevard. Tolley said the precaution was taken because the store was loaded with a number of weapons, including at least one long-barreled rifle, ammunition and bulletproof vests. The investigation continues."

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/volusia/orl-locgunman04020404feb04,1,4073679.story?coll=orl-news-headlines-volusia
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
50. Teen admits he killed man, authorities say (FL)
"LEESBURG -- An 18-year-old Leesburg man has confessed to the shooting death last month of another man in a car, according to a Police Department arrest affidavit.
A witness told investigators he saw Derrick C. Bryant sitting in a mid-1990s Chevrolet Impala in the 1100 block of Kristen Street about 12:48 a.m. Jan. 21 with another man when he heard a gunshot.
The same witness found Bryant, 26, lying in the parking lot and said he saw the other man drive off in the Impala."


http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/lake/orl-lklbriefs05020504feb05,1,2062689.story?coll=orl-news-headlines-lake
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
51. Man shot in stomach after argument (FL)
"A man is recovering from a gunshot wound to the stomach after a confrontation with another man at a home early Wednesday.
Shortly before 1 a.m., investigators were called to the 24000 block of Panther Road after witnesses said they found the man lying on the ground outside a home, said Lt. Todd Luce of the Lake County Sheriff's Office.
Witnesses told investigators the man got into an argument with another man at the home and shots were fired."

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/lake/orl-lklbriefs05020504feb05,1,2062689.story?coll=orl-news-headlines-lake
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
52. 2 Shot At Apartment Complex (TX)
Wonder if anybody lied to the landlord?

"Two people were shot Thursday at a southwest Houston apartment complex, officials told News2Houston.
It happened shortly before 2 p.m. at the San Marcos Apartments, 6301 W. Bellfort at Bob White.
The victims were taken to a local hospital for treatment. Their conditions are not yet known. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=320&ncid=320&e=3&u=/ibsys/20040205/lo_kprc/1994358
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 04:38 PM
Response to Original message
53. Police investigate shooting of teenager (IN)
"Mooresville police are investigating the shooting of an Indianapolis teenager after an argument at a Mooresville dance club.
Mooresville police said the incident began at 2:10 a.m. Sunday when two groups inside The Junction/J2 teen nightclub were asked to leave after an argument.
A short time later, police received a report of a drive-by shooting on High Street near Madison Street. The victim was in a car when occupants of a passing car fired a series of shots.
Police said they recovered 10 spent shell casings and seven .40-caliber bullets."

http://www.indystar.com/articles/7/117834-2077-015.html
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
54. Gun, drugs found at site (NC)
"Investigators found a handgun, crack cocaine, white powder and other items in the motel room of a man who authorities say is a suspect in a series of armed robberies in Clemmons and other cities, according to a search warrant.
Alfred Pleasant Hemric, 41, of Lexington and Kristin Marie O'Leary, 37, of Pfafftown were arrested Jan. 19 at Crossland Economy Studios at 7910 North Point Blvd in Winston-Salem.
Hemric is charged with five counts of armed robbery. He is accused of robbing a Central Carolina Bank branch in Clemmons, a Bank of America branch in Salisbury and a Food Lion store in Pfafftown. Hemric is accused of twice robbing the Food Lion store in Clemmons."

http://www.journalnow.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=WSJ%2FMGArticle%2FWSJ_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031773487913
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
55. Man Allegedly Robbed Area Stores, Raped Workers (OH)
"The same man may be responsible for robberies and sexual assaults at two different businesses, according to police.
The first attack happened at the Big Dog Store at the Dry Ridge Outlet Center in Kentucky, WLWT Eyewitness News 5's Susanne Horgan reported Wednesday.
The second happened at a Subway sandwich shop in Cold Spring.
In both incidents, the store was robbed at gunpoint and the clerk was assaulted. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=410&ncid=410&e=3&u=/ibsys/20040205/lo_wlwt/1991622

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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-05-04 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
56. Sheriffs in jam over gun law (OH)
Turns out some gun nuts actually are.....and no-one can find out until it's too late.....the GOP and bad government by special interest endanger the public neeldessly again.

"Add one more question to the list of unknowns about Ohio's new concealed-carry gun law: Can Ohio's sheriffs get mental-health records for people hoping to legally carry a handgun?
Ohio law says people who have been committed to a mental-health facility should not be permitted to carry a concealed weapon.
Bob Cornwell, executive director for the Buckeye State Sheriffs' Association, said there will be no way to confirm mental-health commitments - except for those ordered by a court. Court rulings are not subject to HIPAA protections, according to Kim Norris, spokeswoman for the Ohio attorney general's office.
If a family or guardian has committed someone to a mental health facility in the past, sheriffs likely would never know it.
There are 36 other states with similar concealed-carry laws. Kentucky and Indiana both deny permits to people who have been adjudicated mentally ill by a court. Neither state checks for mental health commitments that originate from family or others."

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/02/04/loc_concealed04.html
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