GUNS IN THE NEWS--February 4, 2004

[MrBenchley]

As CO Liberal sez:
Please try to adhere to the following voluntary guidelines, in order that we can have an orderly discussion of gun-related news topics:
1 - Feel free to add any CURRENT stories to this thread by replying to this message. In order to be considered current, stories should have been originally posted on the Internet within the previous 24 hours, or provide follow-up to a story that was previously posted on the J/PS board. On Mondays (since many people do not log in to DU over the weekend), stories can be posted from Saturday, Sunday, or Monday.
2 - Both pro-gun and anti-gun stories, editorials, and press releases are welcome in this thread, as long as they're current. Please do not post links to items from a few years back that support your position.
3 - Bear in mind that any links to extremely right-wing sites (such as Newsmax, CNS, or the Washington Times) or intentionally pro-gun or pro-control sites (such as the NRA or the Brady Campaign) are not considered reliable sources by many DU-ers. If at all possible, try to find a link for your story from a more mainstream source, such as a general-circulation newspaper or magazine site. If you choose to use a slanted site, be prepared for any negative feedback you may receive.
4 - Do not change story titles. In other words, if the Oskosh Gazette's web site runs a story titled "Two Killed in Holdup", the title of your message should read "Two Killed in Holdup". Don't change it to "Gun Owner Kills Two People", or anything else that changes the meaning of the story.
5 - If it's not clear from the title where the story occurred, add the city, state, or country in parentheses after the title.
6 - Comment on a story by replying to that story.
7 - Please direct your comments to the story, rather than attacking the person posting the story or any person responding to the story. In accordance with DU rules, any messages that appear to be personal attacks against another DU-er or violations of any other DU rule will be reported to the moderators.
8 - If you object to these guidelines, do everyone else a favor and go to another thread.

[MrBenchley]

1. Gun Found In Birmingham Student's Book Bag (MI)

"Officials in the Birmingham School District sent home letters with students Tuesday to notify parents that a boy was caught with a gun at Derby Middle School on Monday.
A teacher found the Colt 38 in the boy's book bag after being tipped off by another student, according to Local 4 reports.
The boy had apparently been showing the weapon off to his classmates. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20040204/lo_wdiv/1988631

[RoeBear]

2. I'm glad that another student was...

...brave enough to tip off an adult. Too often the peer pressure is too great to turn in one of their own.

[MrBenchley]

3. 14-Year-Old Arrested For Allegedly Shooting 12-Year-Old (OH)

"A 14-year-old was arrested Tuesday for shooting a 12-year-old boy.
The shooting happened at about 9 p.m. on Mogadore Road in Brimfield Township.
Police said the 12-year-old was shot in the right upper torso. He was transported to Akron Children's Hospital. His condition is unknown. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20040204/lo_wews/1989011

[MrBenchley]

4. Teen Faces Murder Charges In Anderson County Shooting (NC)

I think the GOP's found its keynote speaker...

"Anderson County sheriff's deputies are investigating a shooting that killed one person Tuesday morning.
Detectives look for evidence on the front porch of an Anderson County home Tuesday morning. Deputies told WYFF News 4 that they responded to 204 Broadway Heights Road just after 9 a.m. and found 48-year-old Harold Dewaine Bridges, of Iva, dead from a gunshot wound on the porch of the home.
Deputies said Bridges and the teen had been communicating in an Internet chat room aimed at homosexuals. The teen allegedly invited Bridges to his home Tuesday morning.
"When the victim arrived, the 15 year old exited the rear with a rifle shot the victim near the front porch," Capt. Dale McCard told WYFF News 4's Kisha Foster. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20040204/lo_wyff/1987680

[MrBenchley]

5. Pregnant Woman Shot During Mugging (MO)

"A pregnant woman was shot during an apparent mugging Tuesday night, KMBC's Tom Corvin reported.
The shooting happened around 9:30 p.m. outside the Alcazar Apartments at 39th and Baltimore. The victim, who is 4½ months pregnant, was outside the building when she was attacked and shot in her side. The woman's attacker made took her purse, but police found it a few blocks away with the victim's identification still inside.
The woman was taken to an area hospital. Medical personnel told police both the mother and her unborn baby should survive. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20040204/lo_kmbc/1988783

[MrBenchley]

6. Suspect Tries to Ditch Gun in Lobby at Des Moines TV Station

"A Des Moines TV news station had the news come right to its front door Tuesday.
A man who opened fire at a Des Moines Greyhound depot then wandered into the lobby of KCCI-TV and tried to ditch the gun in a potted plant.
One person was shot, but suffered only minor injuries. "

http://www.kcrg.com/article.aspx?art_id=75461&cat_id=123

[MrBenchley]

7. Shooting at Deja Vu Strip Club (NV)

"A scuffle between employees and a shotgun-toting patron has a valet wounded and the patron in custody this morning. The manager at Deja Vu Showgirls says that the valet and the customer argued at closing time before the man reached into a bag for a shotgun. That's when a guard grabbed the man from behind and the gun went off. The blast wounded the valet in the arm."

http://www.kvbc.com/Global/story.asp?S=1627847&nav=15MVKb9v

[mars_clover]

8. Looks like we better ban knives, too.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/02/04/student.death.ap/index.html

"Jaime Rodrigo Gough, 14, was found early Tuesday at Southwood Middle School, a magnet school specializing in visual and performing arts, authorities said. His neck had been slashed."

So long as there are people who want to exert violence against others, they will do so, regardless of the tools available.

Clover

[mars_clover]

9. More knives in the news...

http://www.whittierdailynews.com/Stories/0,1413,207~30611~1933549,00.html

"More than 3 1/2 years after a father and his three children were stabbed to death inside their Pico Rivera home, a woman raised by the family was found guilty of multiple murder counts for helping her boyfriend carry out the slayings."

Clover

[mars_clover]

11. Still more knives in the news...

http://www.philly.com/mld/dailynews/news/local/7869597.htm

"A toddler who was stabbed in the back and left in a snowy West Philadelphia schoolyard last week is now in stable condition, said a Department of Human Services official."

Clover

[CO Liberal]

15. While These Stories Are Tragic...

...they do nothing to address the problems caused by guns in today's society.

[CO Liberal]

14. But...

...why should we make it easier by allowing ready access to firearms?

[mars_clover]

17. Right!

In fact, why should we make it easier by allowing access to any tool that can be used to inflict violence?

Answer:

Because the positive benefits of the tool outweigh the negative aspects.

In the case of firearms, they are necessary for the preservation of a free state, which far outweighs the negative aspect of them being used for crime.

Anyone who disagrees that firearms are necessary for the preservation of a free state, I have the following question:

If you found yourself under the oppression of a tyrannical government, in what way would you resist?

Clover

[CO Liberal]

18. ***** shaking head in disbelief *****

With all the carnage displayed each weekday in these GITN threads, you honestly believe that "the positive benefits of the tool outweigh the negative aspects"?????

Unbelievable.....

[mars_clover]

20. Yes, I do.

"With all the carnage displayed each weekday in these GITN threads, you honestly believe that "the positive benefits of the tool outweigh the negative aspects"?????

Unbelievable....."

Yes, absolutely I do. I don't think it matters at all how often firearms are misused. The fact is, they are essential to preserving a free state.

I can just as easily demonstrate daily carnage caused by automobiles. And automobiles are even less necessary to a free state than firearms!

Further, what is the alternative? Let us suppose that it were actually possible to get rid of all firearms in the hands of civilians, and that this were actually done. Presto! Instantly the daily news accounts of firearms-related crime vanish. Let us suppose then, that some point afterwards a government becomes a tyranny. What is that populace supposed to resist with?

This scenario is precisely why our Founding Fathers put the 2nd Amendment into our Constitution! For them, and for countless others throughout history, this was not a hypothetical question. They, like many others throughout recorded history, found themselves in a situation where the only way to escape oppression was by armed resistance. It has happened in the past. It happens today. It could happen to us in the future. It is folly to believe otherwise.

I know that many, like Mr. Benchley, believe that this logic is "paranoia", and from this I conclude that they believe that we will never find ourselves in such a situation. I sincerely hope they are right. But history is on my side in this debate. And further, there are many signs around us today that I find very ominous. Black-box voting. Elections being decided in courts. The overwhelming power of money over votes in our legislation process. No, I do not think we are past the point of return yet. But as I look at the state of the world around me today I am reminded of the words of Alexander Tyler, written over a hundred years ago, concerning the fall of the Athenian Republic:

"...The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage."

Courage, without the tools to act on it, is useless.

Again, I ask you:

If you found yourself oppressed by a tyrannical government, in what way would you resist?

Clover

[CO Liberal]

21. Answering Your Question...

I would resist every way I could, except with a gun. Because I choose not to own a gun.

You talk about freedom. But to me, you seem to be held slave to your beliefs. You imagine a world over-run with tyrants - that could only be fought off with your gun.

Well. I picture a better world. One where guns are not needed. But we'll never get there as long as some people hold them close and fantasize about using them to save the world.

[MrBenchley]

22. There are those who would say the unelected drunk

and his gang are as close to tyrants as we have come in history...and gun owners sure turned out to be helpful there, didn't they? Here's Jebbo babbling to the NRA klavern:

""Were it not for your active involvement, it's safe to say my brother would not be president of the United States," Bush said."

http://www.jointogether.org/gv/news/summaries/reader/0,2061,563037,00.html

I can't imagine how parroting the dishonest rhetoric of the tyrant's most extreme group of supporters helps in any way.

[mars_clover]

24. Are you saying...

"There are those who would say the unelected drunk and his gang are as close to tyrants as we have come in history...and gun owners sure turned out to be helpful there, didn't they?"

I have no doubt that the NRA is greatly responsible for furthering the political careers of many pro-firearms politicans, including Bush. If the Democratic party was as pro-firearm as many of the Republican party, the NRA would support them just as well. This is one reason why I wish the Democratic party would drop the gun-control plank. I can't tell you how many friends I have who would gladly vote Democratic like me if they weren't single-issue voters. Many of my pro-firearm friends vote based soley on who the NRA recommends as being more pro-firearm in their pre-election publications. This is no exaggeration. Prior to every election the NRA, in it's usual monthly publication, provides extensive lists of candidates and gives them a thumbs-up or thumbs-down in terms of where they feel the candidate stands on firearms rights. I myself use this as a guide for voting. It's hard to trust a politician that doesn't trust me with a gun. I'll also point out that the NRA does give the nod to pro-gun Democratic candidates just as readily as pro-gun Republican ones.

In any case, as is usual for you, Mr. Benchley, your argument is a straw man. The fact that the NRA may be responsible for Bush being president has no bearing on whether or not firearms are necessary for overthrowing tyrants.

Please see:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html

So that you can learn how to effectively debate without resorting to straw man and other fallacies.

"I can't imagine how parroting the dishonest rhetoric."

Which portions of my statements do you consider dishonest, and in what manner?

Clover

[MrBenchley]

27. Wow, another appeal to Nizkor

and incorrectly applied at that.

"the NRA is greatly responsible for furthering the political careers of many pro-firearms politicans"
And what a bunch, too....Tom DeLay, John AshKKKroft, Dick Cheney, Bill Frist, Trent Lott, the Bush Crime family, etc....

"I'll also point out that the NRA does give the nod to pro-gun Democratic candidates"
Boy, they sure worked their magic for Howard Dean last night, didn't they?

[mars_clover]

29. Quite aptly applied...

"Wow, another appeal to Nizkor and incorrectly applied at that."

It was quite aptly applied. You consistently refuse to respond to the direct issue at hand, and instead hold up a distorted version of the issue and debate it - a classic straw-man fallacy. Speaking with you is like trying to nail down jello.

Care to answer my question?:

"I can't imagine how parroting the dishonest rhetoric."

Which portions of my statements do you consider dishonest, and in what manner?

Or are you just going to ignore it, as usual.

"the NRA is greatly responsible for furthering the political careers of many pro-firearms politicans"
And what a bunch, too....Tom DeLay, John AshKKKroft, Dick Cheney, Bill Frist, Trent Lott, the Bush Crime family, etc....

Again, that list could include many more Democrats - if they would drop the anti-gun platform.

"I'll also point out that the NRA does give the nod to pro-gun Democratic candidates"
Boy, they sure worked their magic for Howard Dean last night, didn't they?

The NRA is not a magic bullet for winning elections.

But again, all this is unrelated to the topic at hand.

But you know that, don't you, Mr. Benchley?

Clover

[MrBenchley]

33. Not accurately applied

"all this is unrelated to the topic at hand"
Which is what? How clutching a popgun is supposed to protect people from the sort of idiots pushing the utterly bogus "gun rights" agenda?

[fishbone]

36. Quite accurately applied...

It was accurately applied because, as usual, Mr. Benchley, you refuse to respond directly to any given position. Instead, in a classic example of straw man fallacies, you twist the stated position and attack something different. Thus it was quite accurately applied.

Since you seem to be unable to figure out what the topic at hand is, I will enlighten you: The topic at hand is:

Is the fact that firearms are used to commit violent crimes a valid justifcation to disarm an entire society?

"How clutching a popgun is supposed to protect people from the sort of idiots pushing the utterly bogus "gun rights" agenda?

"Clutching a popgun", as you put it, is supposed to protect people from one thing and one thing only: tyranny. They are to protect us from the sort of idiots pushing the uttlerly bogus "ban guns" agenda, and any other oppression we might face.

fishbone

[MrBenchley]

38. No, not even close to accurate

""Clutching a popgun", as you put it, is supposed to protect people from one thing and one thing only: tyranny. "
Actually, as the Second Amendment clearly states, having a well regulated militia does that.

[fishbone]

40. Exactly right...in the context it was written.

Thank you for conceeding the point. A well regulated, meaning provisioned, militia (meaning every able-bodied male, i.e. me) does do that just fine, and it will continue to do so, unless thwarted by folks like you.

fishbone

[MrBenchley]

41. No, meaning the National Guard

as the courts have affirmed again and again and again...

[slackmaster]

43. I suppose it would be too much trouble for you to provide a cite

Where the courts have said the Second Amendment's well-regulated militia means the National Guard.

I've been studying the issue for over 10 years and haven't run across one. The fact that the NG didn't exist when the Bill of Rights was written might have something to do with it.

[mars_clover]

23. Resistance...is futile.

"I would resist every way I could, except with a gun. Because I choose not to own a gun.

You talk about freedom. But to me, you seem to be held slave to your beliefs. You imagine a world over-run with tyrants - that could only be fought off with your gun.

Well. I picture a better world. One where guns are not needed. But we'll never get there as long as some people hold them close and fantasize about using them to save the world."

I would say your picture of a better world is simply due to wearing rose-colored glasses.

The issue is not guns. The issue is why are they needed? The reason is that greed is part of human nature. So long as greed is a basic instinct of man, there will be people who give into it to varying degrees. Some will give into it to the point where they will use force to get what they want. This has always been so, and while it is a nice dream to invision a utopia where this is not so, there is no real reason to believe that it will ever be so. There is no need to imagine a world over-run with tyrants - there is no shortage of real examples to call upon. Nor is there any need to imagine people resisting tyranny (and often succeeding) by use of armed force. History is full of examples, including America.

So if you accept the idea that there will always be those who are willing to use force to get what they want from others, the question then becomes, what will you do to resist such people, if and when they bring their force to bear on you?

Choosing to resist without the use of firearms is, I suppose, one alternative. I'm reminded of the poor bastards on TV who's only viable recourse to tyranny is to throw rocks. Personally, I will stick with the most effective means to project force available to me.

Out of curiosity, would your "resisting in every way you could" include other violent means of resistance, such as improvised explosives?

Finally, I take issue with your statement that "some people hold them close and fantasize about using them to save the world.", especially if you are painting me with that "some people" brush.

I'm sure there are some firearm owners who fantasize about a "Red Dawn" or "Rambo" scenario, where the bad guys are fought off by the heroic gun-wielding citizens.

Anyone with a lick of common sense, and that would be most gun owners, knows that if the world ever comes to the point where armed resistance becomes necessary, it will be the farthest thing possible from a fantasy, at least in a pleasant sense. Should such an event ever come to pass, civilization as we know it would cease. It would make the chaos of the American Revolution pale by comparison. During the American Revolution, it could be argued that a fair proportion of the country was relatively self-sufficent, given that America of the time was largely still an aggrarian society. At least people were not so far removed from it that people still knew how to provide for themselves. The America of today thrown into revolution would see an economic collapse of such magnitude that most Americans would become what we see on TV every night in third-world countries - swarms of beggars screaming around aid trucks distributing bags of grain. That is, if there were any aid trucks. I suspect most of the world would fall on us like jackals.

So does this mean that a revolution is unwinnable? Far from it. Regardless of who "came out on top" after such an event, frankly, I think the threat of the consequences (complete economic collapse) are more of a gaurdian against an oppressive government than the actual violence of such an insurrection - a collapsed economy cannot support a government, certainly not to the level that ours has grown a taste for.

Clover

[RoeBear]

26. 'A world where guns aren't needed'

Do you see how ridiculous that statement is?

Why not 'I picture a better world where violence is eliminated'?

Guns are not the cause of violence.

[RoeBear]

25. If you only wallow in the GITN thread...

...it's not surprising that you make such a negative attitude.

You just forget that in a country of 290 million people bad things are going to happen.

[MrBenchley]

28. Bad things are going to happen, so let the corrupt gun industry

cash in, eh?

[mars_clover]

30. No one said that...

Mr. Benchely:

Rather than debating what wasn't said, why not address what was said?

Clover

[MrBenchley]

34. But that's what was meant

But hey, let's babble a bunch of hooey about "tyrants" and "freedom" and ignore the actual issue at hand.

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MrBenchley]

37. No telepathy needed

"The fact that you can't debate this point"
Speaking of telepathy skills......
"fishbone (1 posts) "

In fact, as we saw from the "hate them Mexicans" diatribe from the "Second Amendment Skanks" website the RKBA crowd was hoorah-ing about the other day, the main complaint of many gun owners about this corrupt pro-gun appointistration is that they're not tyrannical, racist and crazy enough to suit.

[fishbone]

39. There ya go, changing the subject again...

Where did the "hate them Mexicans" come from?

Can't you even try to stay on topic?

Guess not.

fisbhone

[MrBenchley]

42. The subject was tyranny

and so I pointed to a recent bit of tyranny that was being cheered lustily by the gun rights crowd roundabouts.

[CO Liberal]

32. Especially In a Country of 290 Million......

...with so many damn guns. Guns themselves may not CAUSE the violence, but they are used to COMMIT a lot of it.

[MrBenchley]

10. Man arrested, charged in wife's shooting death (TX)

"Sheriff's deputies in Jim Wells County and Texas Rangers are investigating the death of a Rancho Allegre woman who was shot in the face early Sunday while she was in bed.
The shooting occurred around 3 a.m. at the couple's home at 733 Lara St., authorities said. Rancho Allegre is a subdivision southwest of Alice.
Oscar Lopez, Jim Wells County sheriff, said Mendoza told authorities that he accidentally shot his wife while cleaning his gun.
However, authorities say evidence in the case has not convinced them that the shooting was an accident. "

http://www.caller.com/ccct/local_news/article/0,1641,CCCT_811_2625657,00.html

[mars_clover]

12. Oops - let's get of hands, scissors and frying pans, too...

http://www.daytondailynews.com/localnews/content/localnews/daily/0204ketterer.html

"Convicted of beating, killing 85-year-old friend"

http://wcpo.cincinnati.com/news/2004/local/01/27/ketterer_eve.html

"A trial for torturing Sanders to death with a skillet, scissors and a knife."

Clover

[MrBenchley]

13. Man Pleads No Contest to Shooting Girlfriend (WI)

"A Shawano County man pleaded no contest to a reduced charge of second-degree homicide for the shooting death of his girlfriend.
Kenneth Wolfe, 48, shot Theresa Allen one year ago Monday in their home in the town of Herman.
At the time, Wolfe told police the gun accidentally went off. But he was charged with first-degree intentional homicide because investigators believed she could not have been shot from the angle Wolfe described."

http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=1629005&nav=51s7Kb5U

[MrBenchley]

16. Man Shot In Back In Logan Heights (CA)

"A 37-year-old man was recovering in a hospital Wednesday after being shot in the back by a young man in Logan Heights, police said.
The victim was standing in front of a residence in the 2000 block of Kearney Avenue about 8:30 p.m. Tuesday when a blue four-door Honda rolled up, said San Diego police Sgt. Rey Armstrong.
he young man got out of the car and fired a single shot, hitting the victim in the back, Armstrong said. The young man got back into the car, in which a man was waiting, and the two fled, he said. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20040204/lo_kgtv/1989837

[MrBenchley]

19. Bartender Reportedly Shoots Man Outside Her Home (TX)

"A bartender reportedly shot and killed a man outside her southeast Houston home Tuesday morning.
The 58-year-old bartender said she didn't know who the man was until police arrived. She said the man was a regular customer at the bar where she works and had taken her home before.
The woman told police she had been drinking. "

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibsys/20040204/lo_kprc/1989495

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

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