Just now on MPR - RKBA views and Nov 2004

[Wickerman]

Discussion of economics and job outsourcing, overseas shifts, etc. Gentleman calls in, says his company has outsourced many jobs in his company, has retrained three times, but feels the American Dream slipping away. His buddies feel the same.

Says that in the 80's he started voting Republican because they understood his position (RKBA) as a hunter. However, the support there is a mile wide and an inch deep and the Republicans have done much less, or even encouraged the loss of jobs, in other words, his right to pursuit of happiness. He and his aforementioned buddies will not be voting for gun rights this fall, they will be voting for job rights.

Discuss.

[MrBenchley]

1. Despite all the hullaballoo

down in the gungeon on the issue, anybody who thinks the major issue in 2004 is whether anyone will confiscate popguns is too far gone to ever vote Democratic.

Trying to make mortgage payments when the family breadwinner has been laid off is a lot more "exciting" than shooting deer...even with an assault rifle.

[Wickerman]

2. The thread is now gone, but what about the argument of 1994?

aren't guns the reason why Dems lost so badly to Newt and the gang? And don't most Americans prefer RKBA with no restrictions?

[MrBenchley]

4. Again, there's not a word in the Contract on America

about guns at all in any way...Course you don't hear much about the Contract anymore from the GOP since some of its provisions are directly responsible for the widespread corporate fraud

Maybe the gun nuts could read between the lines and realize that Newt was going to try to overturn the assualt weapons ban...which he did. (Of course he also tried to install someone who claimed the Holocaust hadn't happened as House librarian, which says volumes about Gingrich).

As for what Americans prefer, here's the figures from the DLC's own survey (hilariously, the RKBA crowd here started five threads on this without ever reading beyond the first page)...

--90% of Americans want to close the gun show loophole
--86% want increased penalties for gun trafficking, just like Charles Schumer proposes
--79% want background checks for ALL firearm transactions
--77% want an assault weapons ban....
--67% want ALL firearms registered

The NORC survey show the same levels of support for gun control, as you'll see if you click through to the .pdf document.

http://www.norc.uchicago.edu/new/gunrpt.htm

http://www.mppgv.org/public%20opinion.htm

[Columbia]

8. Appeal to Popularity Fallacy

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-popularity.html

[MrBenchley]

10. Appeal to Nizkor

And incorrectly at that....the question was what do Americans want...and the two independent polls show clearly what they want.

Wonder what Nizkor has to say if you search their site for the words "gun rights"?

[Columbia]

12. The point is

That just because an issue is popular, that does not make it right.

And before you start spouting your usual "gun rights = racists" rhetoric, keep in mind this: Hasty Generalization

[MrBenchley]

14. And popular doesn't make it wrong

And if RKBA was "right" it wouldn't need to rely on cracckpot pseudoscience, crap from Newsmax and the Washington Times, or out and out dishonesty. The only "right" it is is "far right wing"

And there's nothing illogical about answering the question "what is popular?" with an answer "this is popular."

[Columbia]

19. Ad Hominem

[MrBenchley]

21. Wrong again....

"An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument."
There's nothing illogical about pointing out as the answer to "Is the cause right" that the evidence supporting that cause is a load of shit....or that logically, a cause that was "right" would actually have a valid argument to back it up at least once in a while. That's not an irrelevant fact about the authors of the claim, but a very accurate and relevant rebuttal of the totally rotten claim.

Ad hominem would be if I pointed out that the ugly and dishonest pro-gun scumbag Tom DeLay also did not believe in evolution and stopped. Of course the claim is still true...but in order for it not to be an ad hominem argument I would have to produce evidence, such as this splendid bit of RKBA logic:

"DeLay on causes of the Columbine High School massacre:
"Guns have little or nothing to do with juvenile violence. The causes of youth violence are working parents who put their kids into daycare, the teaching of evolution in the schools, and working mothers who take birth control pills.""

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=13152

[Columbia]

25. White noise

[MrBenchley]

27. Yeah, that's pretty much the RKBA cause in a nutshell

white noise and rubbish....

[Columbia]

31. Sticks and stones

[RoeBear]

16. As I said in the closed thread...

...pissing off gun owners and/or hunters is not a way to win elections. You piss'em off and they flock to the polls and bury the offending politician.

It's what happened in 1994 and it can happen again.

[beevul]

17. Well said...

"You piss'em off and they flock to the polls and bury the offending politician."

We remember, come election day.

[MrBenchley]

18. Funny...

I seem to recall the three big issues the Republicans were screaming about in 1994 were Clinton let gays in the military, Hillary was going to ruin health care, and they both killed Vince Foster.

Don't remember any Republican anywhere saying "let's put assault weapons back on the street and get rid of background checks" in public......not even Porkbutt Limbaugh..

[RoeBear]

20. Despite what you 'think'...

...that's what happens.

[MrBenchley]

22. Yeah, that's why the Contract on America

makes such a a big point about guns...oh wait, it doesn't mention them at all.

[beevul]

28. Thats the problem with assuming...

that repukes or Democrats decide the issues.

Perception is everything.

When gun owners/hunters feel threatened politically, are under attack politically, or get stabbed in the back politically, they defend themselves at the ballot box.

Whether that means casting a spitefull vote for the opposition, a third party vote in protest, or no vote in disgust.

You can be quite certain all have happened.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

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[slackmaster]

35. Another Straw Man

No link, no credibility.

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

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[jean]

3. the American Dream isn't dead - we can recover once they're out

Despite the RNC promise of a 200mm juggernaut once they suit the chimp up, "It's the Jobs, Stupid" might be all it takes. "No Jobs" would even work.

Yesterday on Minnesota Public Radio a caller bitterly complained that when calling the state unemployment helpline for advice, he talked to someone overseas - the state had outsourced that job. There must be hundreds of thousands of anecdotal jobless stories saturating the country.

[MrBenchley]

6. Exactly so...

The RNC even outsourced its fundraising calls.....

[Redneck Socialist]

5. The guy had a great line...

..."I've got my guns, but now I can't afford to shoot them."

[Wickerman]

9. yeah, should've added that

he was a great caller - I could feel his pain.

[el_gato]

7. Just shows how stupid the paternalistic gun grabbing has been

hell Gore would have won Tennesee if not for this lame issue
and we would have never had 9/11.

[demsrule4life]

11. Jobs were going overseas long before Chimp boy got

selected. Who was it that signed NAFTA?

[MrBenchley]

13. Who'd have guessed? Democrat-bashing

from someone in the RKBA crowd.

[RoeBear]

15. Yeah you're not allowed to do that here...

...that's for General Discussion: 2004

Forgot my smilie: :)

[demsrule4life]

23. I'm not bashing anyone

jobs have been leaving this country under both parties. Sorry if the truth hurts. At least now the problem is getting more exposure.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

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[MrBenchley]

30. Too frigging funny

"no, instead he took the "ban guns now" stance. "
Let's see the evidence...I sure don't remember Al Gore saying any such thing.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

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[MrBenchley]

33. In other words, it was a pantload

"And thats what the NRA was preaching on their infomercials in 1999 and 2000."
Well, THERE's a source to be believed...

"The blocking of this aid reflects the gun lobby's global agenda. The NRA and its allies (The Safari Club International is one) are campaigning against what they describe as a worldwide conspiracy of gun snatchers. The ploy of frightening Americans, who then buy guns, give money to the NRA and raise its membership, has a broader goal: thwarting international attempts to contain the spread and misuse of small arms.
At a preparatory meeting for a U.N. conference (next year) on illicit arms trafficking, officials from war-devastated African states were flabbergasted at the audacity of NRA lobbyist Tom Mason advocating more guns, not fewer, to countries desperately seeking peace.
The NRA has long engaged in international activism, contributing money to pro-gun political candidates and campaigning against gun regulation in other countries. In a series of infomercials the NRA has accused the United Nations of "cleansing the globe of gun rights," with Charlton Heston stating, "If you follow politics at all, you know a lot of people in Washington DC want to take away your right to keep and bear arms. The truth is they have the whole world on their side, because the systematic disarming of a free people is happening across the globe today. From around the world, the message is clear--your guns are next. Only one thing stands in their way, the Second Amendment and the NRA."

http://www.sbcoalition.org/articles/article.asp?Article=1

""The refusal by this Republican leadership to even let the House and Senate sit down at a common table to discuss gun safety and juvenile justice issues is inexplicable. Maybe the reason for their inaction can be best explained by the NRA infomercials that have been insulting our airways and our families."

http://www.house.gov/tauscher/03-29-00.htm

What a scummy piece of shit Heston was....

[alwynsw]

36. Dang, LB

Looks as though anyone can start a flame war these days. More's the pity.

[Wickerman]

38. well, shame it turned into a flame war.

I was briefly encouraged that there would be some pleasant discussion. Bad on me. I found the original statement an posiive point - we (Dems) are seen as the party that takes care of folks - the Repugs are seen as only interested in scratching each other's backs and providing lip service to RKBA.

I will vote for the Dem candidate who runs against George Bush this fall. I was encouraged to hear another man, previously RW, had my world view that what's important is to undo the damage Bush has caused. I would hope other DUers and the RKBAers share that view. Frankly, I am surprised this caused such a stir. More is the pity.

[alwynsw]

37. A serious thought.

What about joe sixpack who works as a machinist, warehouseman, driver, etc. for a firearms manufacturer? What happens when those thousands of jobs disappear because the U.S. sporting market dies if the anti's have their way?

All of that volume of work won't bee necessary because the demand for sporting arms won't shift overseas.

[MrSandman]

39. Hey, When you participate in a corrupt indistry...

thems the breaks

[MrBenchley]

40. You will notice

that despite all the uproar about Dr. Dean's NRA rating and anti-gun Kerry.....the NRA did not turn out many voters at the polls for him...not even in SC (distant fifth)....OK (distant fifth) and Missouri (distant third).

Somehow I suspect "gun rights" isn't the winning issue the RKBA crowd has been claiming it is, and that voters are going to be motivated by other issues in 2004.