A little bit of gun-control I can get behind… "S. 35 Gun Show Background Check Act of 2011"

[Glassunion]

I have read the text and I have very, very little bad to say about it. Basics of it is that; it requires background checks of ALL firearms transferred at an event(gun show). It does not address the private sale that occurs outside of an event.

A couple of general issues:
The event has to be registered with the Attorney General and a fee has to be paid by the promoter.
1.) There is an avenue of abuse by the AG in not permitting an event. Basically, you need permission from the federal government before you can have an event.
2.) The wording of “fee” is too vague. According the text of the bill, the AG sets the “fee”. Could be 20 bucks, could be 20 thousand bucks.

A couple record keeping issues:
1.) Are there going to be issues where they go after those who in all good faith run background checks, however , literally forgetting to dot an “I” or cross a “T” get 5 years, but the guy selling stolen firearms from his trunk gets less than a year because they have something to plea down to?
2.) The record keeping section is a bit vague as well. Would a promoter have to retain vendor data indefinitely?

Things I like:
1.) As written ALL firearms transfers at a gun show will require a criminal background check
2.) There is specific wording that protects the privacy of private sellers and transferees (no backdoor registry), in that it specifically states that identifying information of the seller/purchaser of any firearm is not to be recorded. The FFL performing the BG check will retain the 4473 forms(from my understanding).

[wtmusic]

1. Sounds good to me.

You traitor. :D

[X_Digger]

2. Thomas link here..

S.35 at Thomas

And umm.. no.

`(4) maintains a copy of the records described in paragraphs (1) and (2) at the permanent place of business of the gun show promoter for such period of time and in such form as the Attorney General shall require by regulation.'

Take your shotgun to the gun show to 'trade up'? The promoter keeps a copy of your driver's license.

And the FFL keeps records..

`(1) enter such information about the firearm as the Attorney General may require by regulation into a separate bound record;
`(2) record the transfer on a form specified by the Attorney General;


No, no, and Oh HELL no.

[Glassunion]

7. Give it a second read...

Paragraphs 1 & 2 relates to vendors not transferees or sellers...
‘(1) before commencement of the gun show, verifies the identity of each gun show vendor participating in the gun show by examining a valid identification document (as defined in section 1028(d)(3)) of the vendor containing a photograph of the vendor;
‘(2) before commencement of the gun show, requires each gun show vendor to sign--

‘(A) a ledger with identifying information concerning the vendor; and
‘(B) a notice advising the vendor of the obligations of the vendor under this chapter;

‘(3) notifies each person who attends the gun show of the requirements of this chapter, in accordance with such regulations as the Attorney General shall prescribe; and
‘(4) maintains a copy of the records described in paragraphs (1) and (2) at the permanent place of business of the gun show promoter for such period of time and in such form as the Attorney General shall require by regulation.


FFL Keeping of the records...
‘(B) shall not include the name of or other identifying information relating to any person involved in the transfer who is not licensed(A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer who agrees to assist a person who is not licensed under this chapter) under this chapter;

Basically it details the firarm(s), but not the purchaser. The ATF would still have to investigate they way they currently do using the form 4473.

[X_Digger]

13. Vendor = anyone who sells 1 or more

`(38) GUN SHOW VENDOR- The term `gun show vendor' means any person who exhibits, sells, offers for sale, transfers, or exchanges 1 or more firearms at a gun show, regardless of whether or not the person arranges with the gun show promoter for a fixed location from which to exhibit, sell, offer for sale, transfer, or exchange 1 or more firearms.'.

[Glassunion]

15. HOLY FUCK!!! I read it twice and missed that... FORGET EVERYTHING I SAID IN THE OP

This bill is a piece of SHIT!

Thank you Obi Wan...

I have no excuse... Glasses are on, tank is full of coffee, had a decent lunch, fully hydrated, socks match... :shrug:

[Glassunion]

16. I'm still Fucking Pissed... This changes the ENTIRE LANGUAGE of the bill... ARRRG!

Bull Shit!

[X_Digger]

17. I'm sure that was intentional.. I always always always check the 'definitions' area first.

eta: Intentional on the law writer's part, not yours, GU.

[Glassunion]

18. I found something to blame. Gamma rays. Yup. Gamma rays.

I feel like an ass. On it's face there was very little that would have bothered me, but with that language. Fuck it all.

[Katya Mullethov]

25. If you find any more that you like .Be sure to let us know .

Boy we sure need some .

[TheCowsCameHome]

3. The BFL's, RBKA's, FLF's, AEIOU's, EIEIO's get so confusing at times.

I mean WTF, IMHO.

[slackmaster]

4. My criticism of that idea is that it would lead to a proliferation of not-quite-a-gun-show events

However the term "gun show" is defined, it will be possible to hold an event where guns are offered for sale that doesn't meet the thresholds of whatever measures define a gun show.

In California we have background checks and waiting period on must gun transfers, of course including ones that occur at gun shows. People have figured out ways of making the system work.

It's certainly feasible physically, if not politically.

[X_Digger]

6. 15 guys with four guns = 'gun show'

Forget flea markets.. they'd be terrified of being called a gun show.

`(36) GUN SHOW- The term `gun show' means any event--

`(A) at which 50 or more firearms are offered or exhibited for sale, transfer, or exchange, if 1 or more of the firearms has been shipped or transported in, or otherwise affects, interstate or foreign commerce; and

`(B) at which--

`(i) not fewer than 20 percent of the exhibitors are firearm exhibitors;

`(ii) there are not fewer than 10 firearm exhibitors; or

`(iii) 50 or more firearms are offered for sale, transfer, or exchange.

[PavePusher]

5. Sorry, no.

Your first set of objections demonstrate an utter violation of the First Amendment.

I don't intend to throw any of them under the bus.

[Glassunion]

9. Point taken...

[RSillsbee]

8. Abso-FRAKKING-lutely not

Gun shows account for less than 2% of firearms used in crimes. If you throw this bone to the antis they'll be back in 5 (less) tryingto ban private sales period.

Their goal is total civilian disarmement nothing you give them (short of that) will be enough

[damntexdem]

10. Thanks for the heads up on how inadequate the proposal is.

Time for strong, effective control of gun shows and other such sources of firearm infestation.

[Glassunion]

11. Good luck with that.

I would like to see just one bill that does not violate the bill of rights. Even this one comes too close for me on violating the 1st amendment. If you can manage that, then you might find yourself with some support.

[oneshooter]

12. Did tou notice that the AG set all fees, at his/her choice? n/t

[Glassunion]

14. That was the one that got me. I cannot agree with that.

If it comes out of committee with that language still in it, I cannot support it.

[ManiacJoe]

19. How are the background checks to be done?

I might have missed it in my quick read of the Thomas link, but since only dealers are allowed to use the NICS checks, how are the private sellers supposed to do any background checks?

[pipoman]

27. They have to use an ffl who has to keep the 4473

[lawodevolution]

20. Hell no

Ask the Mexican government for permission to have a gun show in Mexico, the answer would be no, imagine our federal government denying permits for gun shows in the future. Hell no, the Feds just want to gain more control.

[Glassunion]

23. Posts 15 & 16 sum it up... I was wrong. Post 18 is my legal defense.

[lawodevolution]

24. unfortunately the gun control supporters don't propose laws that are designed to keep us safe

they only propose laws designed to attack legal gun ownership or to setup the ability to attack legal gun ownership at a later date.

This is why I oppose all new gun control until it is proven that it is worthwhile and not an attack against gun owners. The government can try to solve societies problems by finding and working on the underlying causes.

[pipoman]

21. Then can a person buy a gun at an out of state show

without having to transfer it to an in state ffl? If not I don't see how this doesn't violate the commerce clause...actually they may be able to side step the intrastate commerce prohibition of federal regulation if it did allow for interstate purchases. In fact it may even get some support if it did allow anyone who could pass an ncic check to purchase, cash & carry, at the show regardless their state of domicile.

[Glassunion]

22. Posts 15 & 16 sum it up... I was wrong. Post 18 is my legal defense.

[pipoman]

26. I just wat to know how this will be spun to be constitutional

I suspect it will be determined not to be constitutional in committee and it's failure to pass will be blamed on opposition by the NRA. There is always talk of 'compromise', I'd bet there would be no agreement to compromise about making these gun shows interstate free trade areas.

[Callisto32]

28. NO

We can't have this, people will just meet at the show, and then go elsewhere and privately transfer privately owned property for value!

Such a transaction undermines the very foundations of society!

ETA: The only way we will ever be safe is to entirely ban the private trans...no ALL transfer of firearms!!!1!

[Callisto32]

29. My real response.

This is designed to be an administration nightmare for gun shows and a revenue source for the feds.

In the end it will do nothing, since people will just meet at the show, and then go elsewhere if they want to avoid the NICS and transfer fees charged by FFL's. This is nothing but incrementalism, designed to get a foot in the door to let the feds shut down gun shows completely. Even if the people putting it forward don't intend that, that is how it will be used.

Government always grows, by its very nature.