Swiss voters reject anti-gun initiative

[cleanhippie]

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/Home/Archive/Swiss_reject_anti-gun_initiative_.html?cid=29484482

Voters have thrown out a controversial initiative on restricting access to firearms in a nationwide ballot on Sunday.

Final results showed just over 56 per cent of votes had been cast against the initiative which sought to ban army-issue guns from the home.

A majority of cantons voted against the initiative. Support came from several, mainly urban regions including Geneva, Basel and Zurich. Opposition was strongest in rural areas in eastern and central Switzerland as well as in the southern Italian-speaking canton of Ticino.

The result is a blow for supporters - a broad coalition of NGOs, trade unions, churches, pacifists and centre-left parties.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/Home/Archive/Swiss_reject_anti-gun_initiative_.html?cid=29484482

[Taverner]

1. Everyone has a gun in Switzerland

And it has the exact same crime rate as the UK, which has very strict gun control.

Countries of roughly equal size - exact same crime rates.

That tells me guns don't matter when it comes to fighting crime

[era veteran]

3. Actually the UK is almost 6 times larger with 8 times the

population. The demographic is very different in these countries. Facts matter when making argument.

[Taverner]

7. Numbers please....

And you know me, show me the evidence, and I do change my mind

[era veteran]

9. Sure thing

Not arguing, just noticed, this straight from the Wiki
Switzerland
Area
- Total 41,285 km2 (133rd)
15,940 sq mi

Population
- 2009 estimate 7,785,600 (94th)
- 2007 census 7,593,500
- Density 188/km2 (65th)
477.4/sq mi
United Kingdom
Area
- Total 243,610 km2 (79th)
94,060 sq mi
- Water (%) 1.34
Population
- 2010 estimate 62,041,708 (22nd)
- 2001 census 58,789,194<3>
- Density 254.7/km2 (51st)
659.6/sq mi

[Taverner]

10. What about crime rates though...

[era veteran]

11. I don't know anything about the crime rates except what

you quoted. I have no dispute with that. I just knew about the population and size. Having spent time both places I know they are big different though.

[Taverner]

12. OK - understood - and point conceded

They are not different in population sizes. Sorry for the incorrect statement.

Thanks :)

[benEzra]

2. Reporting fail. The initiative wasn't about "access to firearms."

It was about whether or not to continue the practice of storing government-owned automatic weapons in private homes, and wouldn't have affected private Swiss gun ownership at all, as I understand it.

[PoliticAverse]

4. Your understanding is wrong/incomplete. n/t

[SlimJimmy]

6. I beg to differ. It was exactly about keeping army issued weapons at home. (nt)

[PoliticAverse]

8. No, it was not only about keeping army issued weapons at home. n/t

[SlimJimmy]

13. That was the MAIN issue. Any other issues were merely a side note.

But thanks for playing.

[PoliticAverse]

14. Unless you've asked all the people who voted on the issue...

what were the reasons they voted for or against the issue you are just speculating as
to what part people considered 'a side note'.

The point is the initiative wasn't at all just about military weapons being kept at
home as the person I was replying to had claimed.

[SlimJimmy]

15. Pick nits much? The main thrust of the proposed legislation was to remove military issued weapons

from homes. Anything else was a side issue.

[benEzra]

16. My mistake...

What were the other aspects, out of curiousity?

Added on edit: Is this the initiative in question?

http://www.pro-tell.ch/cms/images/stories/dokumente/initiative/4.1.002d_d_Initiativtext_0901224.pdf

Die Bundesverfassung vom 18. April 1999 wird wie folgt geändert:
Art. 107 Kriegsmaterial
1 Aufgehoben
Art. 118a (neu) Schutz vor Waffengewalt
1 Der Bund erlässt Vorschriften gegen den Missbrauch von Waffen, Waffenzubehör
und Munition. Dazu regelt er den Erwerb, den Besitz, das Tragen, den Gebrauch und
das Überlassen von Waffen, Waffenzubehör und Munition.
2 Wer Feuerwaffen und Munition erwerben, besitzen, tragen, gebrauchen oder
überlassen will, muss den Bedarf dafür nachweisen und die erforderlichen Fähigkeiten
mitbringen. Das Gesetz regelt die Anforderungen und die Einzelheiten, insbesondere
für:
a. Berufe, bei denen sich der Bedarf aus der Aufgabe ergibt;
b. den gewerbsmässigen Handel mit Waffen;
c. das Sportschützenwesen;
d. die Jagd;
e. das Sammeln von Waffen.
3 Besonders gefährliche Waffen, namentlich Seriefeuerwaffen und
Vorderschaftrepetierflinten
(Pump Action), dürfen nicht zu privaten Zwecken erworben und
besessen werden.
4 Die Militärgesetzgebung regelt den Gebrauch von Waffen durch die Angehörigen
der Armee. Ausserhalb des Militärdienstes werden die Feuerwaffen der Angehörigen
der Armee in gesicherten Räumen der Armee aufbewahrt. Angehörigen der
Armee dürfen beim Ausscheiden aus der Armee keine Feuerwaffen überlassen
werden. Das Gesetz regelt die Ausnahmen, namentlich für lizenzierte Sportschützen.
5 Der Bund führt ein Register für Feuerwaffen.
6 Er unterstützt die Kantone bei Aktionen zum Einsammeln von Feuerwaffen.
7 Er setzt sich auf internationaler Ebene dafür ein, dass die Verfügbarkeit von
Kleinwaffen und leichten Waffen eingeschränkt wird.
Bundesblatt vom 04. September 2007
Initiativtext
24.02.2009

If so, that would seem to go far beyond the question of government arms storage in private homes, as you point out.

[PoliticAverse]

17. Yes that's it. Thanks for following up your post.

In addition to changing the location of military arms from private homes to central armories the initiative:

Required national registration of all privately held firearms.

Restricted private firearm ownership to people that meet certain requirements.

Made the private ownership of automatic weapons and 'pump action' weapons (like pump action shotguns) illegal.

[benEzra]

18. Thanks. One additional question, though.

Aren't automatic weapons already restricted in Switzerland, except for government owned guns? I was under the impression that all privately owned arms in Switzerland must be semiautomatic or below, and that private ownership of all automatic weapons is tightly controlled, as in the United States. I believe government-owned military weapons must be converted to semiautomatic-only before ownership can be transferred to the individual at the conclusion of service, and I thought this was to comply with Swiss law governing civilian firearms.

In context, isn't Seriefeuerwaffen ("series fire weapons," yes?) in the proposal a synonym for "semiautomatic", i.e. one shot per trigger pull? Otherwise it would be odd to ban pump-actions and not mention semiautos at all.

[one-eyed fat man]

20. Leider nicht

The urge to restrict pump shoguns goes back to WW1 when US soldiers used the Winchester Model 97 trench gun to great effect. The German government lodged an official complaint alleging the shotgun in violation of the Hague Conventions. They did threaten to shoot any Americans captured with one. They considered the shotgun as inhumane.

"Seriefeürwaffen" is full auto in normal German usage. Here is an on-line ad in German for full auto firearms for sale in Switzerland and priced in Swiss Francs. "Selbstlade" is auto loader, more precisely "self-loader" aka semiautomatic as on this Model 4 Walther.

[benEzra]

21. I wonder if the full-auto language was intentional, or reflective of ignorance on the part

of the initiatives' authors. A whole lot of people in the U.S. gun control movement and the population at large conflate the two, and I suppose it is possible that those who drafted the initiative simply don't know that Swiss civilian firearms are semiautomatic rather than automatic. :shrug:

[oneshooter]

22. The German Govt. never executed an American captured with a shotgun.

Possibly because America told them that for every one of our solders executed, we would hang five of theirs.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[SlimJimmy]

5. You are absolutely correct. (nt)

[Katya Mullethov]

19. Hence the "Waffen-monopol für verbrecher?" posters

Which , loosely translates as "weapons-monopoly for criminals?
http://www.20min.ch/dyim/1c424f/B.M600,1000/images/content/1/4/8/14809388/14/topelement.jpg
NEIN !!!NEIN !!! NEIN !!! NEIN !!! NEIN !!