I have a dillema- RE 2004 election

[funkyflathead]

I am a lifelong Democrat. I am pro-gun however.

I am sportsman and care about the environment.

I own all kinds of guns. I even own an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle.

I hate the "Assault Weapons and Magazine" ban.

I am behind Howard Dean right now.

I cannot vote for Bush as he is a repuke but I cannot vote for Kerry if he gets the nomination due to his hostile stance on the SA and his generally pro-Iraq War vote.

I am thinking about writing in Dean during the general election in Nov.

What should I do??

[mopinko]

1. get out there and get howard nominated.

any means necessary.

[funkyflathead]

2. I've been trying

but right now the NC primary is up in the air due to a Repuke lawsuit over redistricting!

[pacifictiger]

4. funny how all these

republican redistricting things are corrupting the process.

[dae]

3. I understand your concerns and pro-gun myself but I won't let anything

stand between me and a Democrat ballot this Fall. Their is no guarantee the Democrats will take back either side of Congress much less both, then have them veto proof on top of that.
I share you concerns, I support Clark first, Dean second, and three way tie between Kerry, Edwards, Kucinich. But, it wouldn't matter now if Genghis Khan got the nomination, okay maybe it would, I'm going Democrat.:)

[funkyflathead]

5. I appriciate your advice

Maybe just maybe if the nom isn't Dean they will see the light and support real gun ownership as envisioned by the Founding Fathers.

[FeebMaster]

6. I wouldn't hold my breath. (nt)

...

[demsrule4life]

8. And if cows could fly

nevermind, been up to long. :)

[Paladin]

10. I'm With You, All The Way

I don't care whether the Democratic candidate is a scoop of aquarium gravel, I'll proudly cast my vote for him, her, or it, rather than pass up the chance to vote against Bush.

Those of you pro-gun Democrats who decide to stay at home on election day, or throw your vote away on some third party, or in any other way increase Bush's chances for re-election, can start lining up right now to kiss this honest-to-God Democrat's ass........

[funkyflathead]

12. Only if it's Kerry or Lieberman getting the nomination

Both very anti-gun.

At least the other 3 have some common sense on the SA.

Edwards does bug me with his pro-war stance.

[MrBenchley]

18. Amen to that...

It's ridiculous to pretend that the major issue in this election is John Kerry's sinister plan to seize popguns from neurotics.

[SheilaT]

7. Donate some money

to the Dean campaign. www.deanforamerica.com.

[Columbia]

9. I know how you feel

Looks like it's going to be another one of those clothespin votes. Might have to go 3rd party this time around though if Kerry wins the nom.

[funkyflathead]

11. I am really considering writing in Howard Dean in November

Maybe I'll vote for Kerry but I doubt it.

I'm a Democrat and I'll just stay home if it's not Dean or Edwards.

[Columbia]

13. They are my picks too

I was for Dean at first, but after I realized that the perception of his "anger" made him unelectable, I moved to Edwards whose gun policies aren't as good, but ok.

[Paladin]

14. Your Irony Dose For The Day

I just wonder about you pro-gun "Democrats" who are using this thread to publicly admit that you might not vote Democratic if your particular candidate doesn't make it to the bitter end. Are you the same people who've been constantly bitching that Bush is in the White House now, solely because of Gore's stance on guns? If you really believe that, are you willing to take an active part in trying to make it happen again, and inflict the Bush regime on this country for another four years?

Give that a little thought......

[Kathy in Cambridge]

15. Some of you would vote third party over one issue?

That's very narrow and, considering the alternative is another four years of Bush and a gradual strengthening of the Patriot Act, detrimental to your pro-gun stance.

I guess you're gun owners first and Americans second. Because you're not putting your party before your country-you're selfish enough to put one issue before your country.

[MrBenchley]

17. Amazing isn't it?

Of course here in the gungeon we're used to the RKBA crowd posting crap from right wing cesspools like Newsmax and the National Review seriously....and slandering pretty much every Democrat anyone's ever heard of....

[Columbia]

21. Ad Hominem

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html

[MrBenchley]

22. The racist gun rights crowd

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/adl/paranoia-as-patriotism/aryan-nations.html

[Columbia]

25. Hasty generalization

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/hasty-generalization.html

[MrBenchley]

28. Nope, just Nizkor accurately describing the scum

pushing "gun rights" rubbish in public.

[Columbia]

30. Appeal to Spite

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-spite.html

[MrBenchley]

31. Nope, just Nizkor not being fooled

by what's under the "gun rights" sheet....

[Columbia]

32. Again, Nizkor is just a host of the Fallacy Tutorial

That's also a Red Herring.

[MrBenchley]

34. They're a lot more than that

They're also keeping a close eye on neoNazi groups...of the sort that run around spouting this "gun rights" crap.

[Columbia]

35. As well they should

But gun rights does not equal neonazi's.

And besides being a Red Herring, it's also a Spotlight Fallacy.

[MrBenchley]

36. Funny how every racist and Nazi around today....

...spouts it in public...along with far right wing Republicans and just about nobody else.

If your playmates don't bother you, they don't bother me.

But it's hillarious to hear that you're "shuddering" in horror because Democrats are supporting good and decent Democrats in public, but utterly unconcerned that Tom DeLay, John AshKKKroft, David Duke and the scum of the earth are the public figures pushing your pet issue.

By the way, you and the rest of the RKBA crowd keep bringing up this "elitism" charge but seem curiously unwilling to define it. I haven't heard that term since the days of the civil rights movement, when those trying to prop up Jim Crow used to snarl that liberal elites wouldn't be the one living with, going to school with, working with, black Americans. (We are doing so, of course...we're just not the ones trying to bring back the bad old days. Those are the same folks spouting "gun rights.")

So who are these "elitists" you're shuddering over? People who chew with their mouths closed? Classical music fans? Anyone who's been to the ballet?

[Columbia]

37. More logical fallacies

Not only is that a Spotlight Fallacy, but is also a Biased Sample. These fallacies pretty much cover all your "gun rights are racist, right-wing, neo-nazi, militia" type statements so it would behoove you to refrain from these comparisons if you want your assertions to have any semblance of legitimacy.

But to address some substantive reasoning in your post, what I meant by elitism is the idea that one person's method of voting is superior to anothers. I will vote how I vote and you can vote how you vote. Don't tell me where my priorities are and dictate where they shouuld be. Divisiveness and infighting will not help the liberal cause.

[MrBenchley]

39. Gee, my assertions have plenty of legitimacy

and I back up what I say...

"what I meant by elitism is the idea that one person's method of voting is superior to anothers"
You mean like the RKBA crowd pretending that a candidate is going to seize their guns?

"Divisiveness and infighting will not help the liberal cause."
Gee, seems to me the only divisiveness around here ts on the RKBA crowd's side. Who was that trying to "help the liberal cause" by refusing to support the liberal candidate out of paranoid spite?

[Columbia]

42. You back up your fallacies

With yet more fallacies.

"You mean like the RKBA crowd pretending that a candidate is going to seize their guns?"

Strawman

"Gee, seems to me the only divisiveness around here ts on the RKBA crowd's side. Who was that trying to "help the liberal cause" by refusing to support the liberal candidate out of paranoid spite?"

Another strawman.

I never said either or intimated either of your statements you attribute to me. I said I would vote for who I thought was the best candidate. Their gun rights stance is a major component of my decision, but certainly not the only component. As a for example, I voted for Gore despite his stance because I thought overall he was the best candidate.

edit for grammar/speeling

[MrBenchley]

43. Not even close to true...

As a glance at the posts in THIS thread more than adequately demonstrate....

[FeebMaster]

19. nonsense

There's no sense in voting for someone you don't agree with. Giving your vote away to people who don't deserve it is a good way to ensure that you never have someone worth voting for run. How do you think the "pro-gun/smaller government" republicans ended up with bush?

It's not like it is just one issue. Generally, when you find a candidate happy to sell out on a freedom, chances are it's not the only freedom he'd be happy to sell out. Are any of the candidates going to end the drug war? Which of them, for that matter, are going to repeal the Patriot Act? Some of them voted to pass it in the first place.

[MrBenchley]

23. Find out what Trent Lott's been up to?

For that matter, weren't you the one trying to imply that Republicans weren't pro-gun?

[FeebMaster]

26. No

"Find out what Trent Lott's been up to?"

Not yet.

For that matter, weren't you the one trying to imply that Republicans weren't pro-gun?

A number of their voters certainly are. I think the voting record for elected republicans speaks for itself on the gun control issue.

[MrBenchley]

29. Gee, don't you think you ought to find out

before jumping into political discussions?

It's not like it requires much digging to find out what one of the leading Republicans around has been up to.

[FeebMaster]

33. As I've said before,

he isn't my senator.

"Gee, don't you think you ought to find out before jumping into political discussions?"

I don't see how what Trent Lott has been doing is relevant. He certainly hasn't been working to repeal any federal firearms legislation.

[MrBenchley]

38. Gee...

Trent Lott was the Senate Republican leader...he didn't have to be my Senator to impact my life negatively.

"He certainly hasn't been working to repeal any federal firearms legislation."
Guess that's the ONLY criteria you have for discussing politics in general....and something for the rest of us to consider when weighing your opinion on politics.

By the way, why don't you ask one of your fellow gun "enthusiasts" about Trent Lott? I'm sure all these Democrats can tell you what he has been up to in his disgraceful and scurrilous career.

[FeebMaster]

40. I'm sure Trent Lott has been

up to all kinds of terrible things. But what do any of them have to do with voting for Democrats?

[MrBenchley]

41. Tee hee hee....

[Paladin]

27. I Have Never Voted For A Perfect Candidate

I've had issues with all of them, but I've recognized that, on balance, they were the better choices and cast my votes accordingly. This year it's easy. Any of the Democrats appear to be better alternatives than having to face the kind of train wrecks that are sure to derive from a second Bush term.

As far as I'm concerned, a person who thinks John Kerry is a bigger threat to gun ownership than John Ashcroft probably shouldn't be trusted with firearms in the first place. Happy decision making.....

[Columbia]

24. Voting your conscience

is what creates positive change. Picking the lesser of two evils is a politically bankrupt process. I am not a gun owner first, and an American second. In fact, my devotion is to God, family, and country far before guns or political parties. Whoever I end up voting for in the general election will be based on who I believe is best as a whole for our country and nothing more.

I truly shudder at the elitism I see in some of the posts in this thread. Voting your party simply because of party alone is exactly what will cause them to sell you out. Some people say that Gore's gun rights stance in 2000 cost him the election. The Democratic party has taken notice as the candidates this time around are much stronger on gun rights than Gore. This just goes to show that one can effect positive change by voting your conscience.

For informational purposes, I voted for Gore in 2000 despite my reservations on his gun rights stance.

[davidinalameda]

16. what should you do--look at your sig line

and ask yourself is it better to have Bush stay in office and allow him 4 more years to basically fuck over this country even more than he has or to elect a Democrat

people who stay home in November will be the ones responsible for Bush's re-selection

[funkyflathead]

45. This is what troubles me

I don't want a Republican but I am sick of anti-gun Democratic candidates either.

Well the election is a long way off right now and we will see what happens.

Things could change.

[slackmaster]

46. I think we have a Quote of the Day

people who stay home in November will be the ones responsible for Bush's re-selection

This should be painted on banners and displayed on every highway bridge in the USA on Election Day.

[hansberrym]

20. Granted, his second amendment stance is weak, but he seems to have

the best chance of beating Bush. Why not suport him, but send him a letter stating that you would like him to consider the broader meaning of the second amendment and not just the right to have guns for hunting and sporting purposes.

His stance on the SA is not strong, but at least he publicly states that individuals have the right to owns arms and that he will defend that right. For me, this is a case of not letting perfection be the enemy of good. Kerry's not perfect on the SA, but he is good enough.



from:
http://www.johnkerry.com/communities/sportsmen/rights.html

Supports the Second Amendment & Will Defend Hunting Rights – John Kerry is a gun owner and he believes in the right to bear arms. During his announcement speech, Kerry emphasized his strong belief in the Second Amendment by saying bluntly: “I’m a hunter and I believe in the Second Amendment.” Additionally, Kerry has sad he will work to defend hunting rights. “I enjoy going hunting. I'm prepared to stand up and defend common sense on guns.”

[funkyflathead]

44. How do I know he supports other uses of guns than hunting?

I don't have my guns for hunting alone.