A "poll" for the "gunniez" around here.

[Callisto32]

A recent poll thread got a couple of responses along the "Take anything. Just don't take our guns. Guns giveth us life and meaning" type responses.

I always cringe at this, as it is what I consider to be inconsistent prohibitionists projecting. What I mean is, every time someone suggests a prohibition (on a physical thing), I am instantly skeptical. I suspect that many other "gunniez" (what the hell, I guess I should own their slurs) around here share similar views. I am not a donor (probably should be, actually, but 3 years of law school has a way of depleting your resources in ways you never thought possible) so I can't post a poll, but I would like to ask for responses to a "pick one of these" question. Please keep in mind I am talking about prohibition of objects, not behaviors; as I readily agree that there are many behaviors that are rightly prohibited because of the harm they cause.


1. I don't really care about prohibition that doesn't affect me directly, just don't take the stuff I like (like guns).

2. I find prohibition to be generally distasteful, ignorant of the facts in nearly all cases, ineffective, a poor use of resources, and/or generally immoral. I do not care what group is affected by them, I am skeptical about prohibition, no matter what people seek to ban/limit.


Feel free to modify the above to your personal views, of course.

[MicaelS]

1. I choose #2, period.....

2. I find prohibition to be generally distasteful, ignorant of the facts in nearly all cases, ineffective, a poor use of resources, and/or generally immoral. I do not care what group is affected by them, I am skeptical about prohibition, no matter what people seek to ban/limit.

That is a superb statement, and I plan to steal it for my sig.

[Callisto32]

2. Feel free.

Though now I wish I had proofread and changed a grammatical error.

"them" should be "it" or "prohibition" should be "prohibitions" oops.

[oneshooter]

3. #2. Banning an item has never worked. n/t

[The_Commonist]

4. I think guns should be like abortions...

Safe, rare and legal.

People don't need to be walking around with pistols strapped to their hips, and they don't need closets full of automatic thingies that are designed to kill other human beings and exist for no other purpose. People fetishize their guns and then get into this whole "2nd amendment rights" bullshit. You have a "right" to own a single shot musket, you freak!

That being said - I am totally on board with option number two.

And that's what a lot of "gunniez" don't understand. The minute one says they "don't need to be walking around with pistols strapped to their hips," they instantly whine about their "rights" and "you want to grab my guns!" It makes it impossible to talk with many of them...

[MicaelS]

5. The problem is who gets to decide rarity?

Should anyone tell a woman she can't have an abortion, because they have a moral objection to abortion? Should a woman have some sort of lifetime limit on the number of abortions she may have? And it is 1,2,3 or what precise number?

Should you be able to tell me I can't own a gun because you have a moral objection to guns? Because the term "need" is just a closet term for someone attempting to foist their personal version of morality on someone else. I do not care what the object, or the procedure in question, someone is going to ask "What do you NEED that for?"

You don't like guns, porn, abortion, tobacco, drugs, alcohol, gambling --- whatever you deign to be a "sin", then do not buy or consume said sinful item. But don't attempt to foist your version of personal morality on me, because you have the idea you know what is better for me than I do, or you have a personal disgust for something.

[Callisto32]

6. I would be interested in knowing how you define a right.

Also, note that by that rationale, you only have a right to Gutenberg presses and quill pens.

[kudzu22]

7. I object to people telling me what I "need"

If I feel like walking around with a food processor strapped to my head and wearing garbage pail lids for shoes, that's my business. Nobody "needs" to do that, but hey, it's a free country. Or at least it was until all the need-Nazis started making rules for everyone.

[NewMoonTherian]

8. I have to take issue with a couple of things...

and I'll do so as constructively as possible.

I'll first address your interpretation of the 2nd amendment as protecting only the arms available at the time of its writing. This is inconsistent, both with Supreme Court rulings and with the common interpretation of the other rights enumerated in the constitution. The comparison made most often is the 1st. Applying your standard, expression via modern technology(e.g. television, radio, internet) is not protected, as they were not available when the 1st amendment was written.

Secondly - and this is really what I wanted to discuss - I'm not sure I understand your position. You did make the "people don't need..." remark, but then you expressed that you don't believe in banning these things. Can you clarify? It seems that you mean either:

You don't approve of the things you listed(open carry, access to automatics) but you don't believe it's the government's place to restrict them. I feel that way about smoking.

Or:

You believe in laws prohibiting open carry and automatics, and believe that they don't equate to a ban.

Maybe neither of these reflects what you're trying to say, and in that case, please elaborate so I can have a clearer picture of your stance on the issue.

[benEzra]

11. The gun issue is exclusively about civilian non-automatics...

and to obtain a carry license, I had to jump through a whole lot of hoops (federal background check, NC background check, mental health records check, FBI fingerprint check, NC class on self-defense law, and demonstration of competence on a shooting range). Statistically, I pose less of a threat of violent crime than your local police officer, and LEO's are themselves generally more law-abiding than the public at large.

I understand your aversion to guns, just as I understand some people's aversion to alcohol, drugs, abortion, or gay marriage, but I do choose differently than you, and I value the right to so choose.

[lawodevolution]

12. Wait, so you tell people they don't need a lot of their guns and then you don't want them to

respond with the view that you want to ban guns. Are there any other thoughts you'd like to regulate.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

14. You have the right to an education...

and clearly decided to forfeit that right.

a) "automatic thingies" have been BANNED from manufacture for public consumption for nearly 25 YEARS.
b) There are plenty of legitimate firearms uses besides killing people.
c) "2nd Amendment Rights" - no bullshit... there IS ACTUALLY a recognized to own firearms. Hint: it's in the Bill of Rights.
d) The 2nd amendment protects the right to "ARMS"... not just single shot muskets. Moreover, there is associated intent with the 2nd.
---- I guess by your reasoning, there is no right to computer or typewriter aided publication or electronic communication/broadcast. :eyes:
e) Ever read the 2nd Amendment? "... the right to keep and BEAR arms..." I assure you, *bear* does not refer to large fuzzy animals.

Help yourself to a damn encyclopedia one of these days. :eyes:
Uneducated people make this topic difficult to talk about...

[Atypical Liberal]

16. The musket thing again?

You have a "right" to own a single shot musket, you freak!

It never ceases to amaze me that people continuously say this, and actually believe it. Do you think your freedom of speech is limited only to mechanisms like printing presses that existed in the 18th century? That you have no freedom of speech over a telephone, or over the internet, or even a telegraph? Do you believe that your right against unreasonable searches and seizures doesn't apply to your automobile, since they didn't exist in the 18th century?

The founders enumerated the right to keep and bear arms. Arms that were appropriate for infantry use in the army of their day. That is the kind of arms that the second amendment protects.

The second amendment is one of the rights enumerated in our Bill of Rights, our Constitution. It is not "bullshit". It may not be a right that is important to you, but it is very important to me.

[guitar man]

21. you don't get to tell me what I "need"

ever. period.

[friendly_iconoclast]

25. People fetishize their speech and then get into this whole "1st amendment rights" bullshit.

You have the "right" to use a quill pen and hand-cranked press, you freak!

[cleanhippie]

27. But what YOU think a person doesn't "need" another does. Who are YOU to decide that for everyone?

[jpak]

34. LOL!!111 Great response

:thumbsup:

[benEzra]

9. #2.

Tobacco prohibition would have absolutely no effect on me (since I don't smoke and don't ever plan to), but I fully support the right of adults to choose to use it. Ditto for cannabis and whatnot, alcohol (I occasionally have a Mike's Lemonade, but would hardly notice a ban), skydiving, rock climbing, bike tours with the wind in your hair, and other pursuits of happiness. And I think bans on the foregoing are the height of idiocy, pushed primarily by those who derive their happiness from restricting the choices of others.


"My body, my choice" used to be a progressive slogan, but some Dems seem to have forgotten it, at least when it involves somebody choosing differently on a topic than they themselves would.

[lawodevolution]

10. 2

[slackmaster]

13. #2. Prohibition conveys responsibility to the entity that restricts choice.

I generally oppose prohibitions on philosophical grounds. I am against prohibiting guns for the same reason I am against prohibiting elective abortions:

If you take away a choice from someone, you assume responsibility for all of the consequences of the removal of that choice.

If a woman wants to abort a fetus because it has some tragic deformity that will result in a short life of poor quality accompanied by high medical costs, a society that forbids that abortion should bear all of the cost and inconvenience of caring for the child.

If someone wants to buy a gun for self-defense but can't get one because of, for example, a waiting period or a license he or she can't afford, then the people who voted in the government that enacted those restrictions should be held accountable in the event the person is unable to defend himself or herself and gets robbed, raped, or killed.

As a voter and taxpayer, I don't want to take on the responsibility conveyed by either situation. They're moral equivalents IMO.

[The_Commonist]

15. I knew this would happen...

"Gunniez" really are just about the most defensive people on this site.
It's really quite unpleasant to deal with them.
I don't think your shit should be banned, for the most part.
But your fetish is for things that are designed to kill.
Admit it.
You have a fetish.
King George is not coming to get get you.
If you want to hunt and eat deer meat, you have my total support.
You like to collect shiny objects, and that's OK
But it's a fetish.
Admit it...

[shadowrider]

17. We have to be defensive because of offensive posts like yours n/t

[Atypical Liberal]

18. "It's a fetish"

But it's a fetish.
Admit it...

From http://www.dictionary.com

fet·ish
   /ˈfɛtɪʃ, ˈfitɪʃ/ Show Spelled
–noun
1.
an object regarded with awe as being the embodiment or habitation of a potent spirit or as having magical potency.
2.
any object, idea, etc., eliciting unquestioning reverence, respect, or devotion: to make a fetish of high grades.
3.
Psychology . any object or nongenital part of the body that causes a habitual erotic response or fixation.

I can assure you, my firearms are not objects that I regard with awe as being the embodiment or habitation of any kind of magic.

I can assure you also that my firearms do not cause any sort of erotic response or fixation.

I most certainly do have an unquestioning reverence and respect and devotion to the concept that weapons are the ultimate recourse that a man has to protecting himself and his family. He has both the right and obligation to be able to do this. This is an ancient concept that traces its roots to back before the Norman Conquest. Free men bear arms because it is hard to push around a man who is able to resist you with deadly force.

I have an equally unquestioning reverence, respect, and devotion to the rest of our Constitution, as well: To the idea of having the right to freedom of speech, to being secure in my person, to being secure against unreasonable searches and seizures. For religion to have no place in governance.

So if fetish is the word you wish to use to describe a passionate love for the liberties enumerated by our Constitution, so be it, I'm a Freedom Fetishist!

[Callisto32]

20. I am still waiting on you to define a right.

I'll start.

Whether or not one has a right to engage in a certain activity depends upon whether or not one can engage in that activity without harming others or the property of others or causing imminent threat of that harm. If the answer to this inquiry is "yes, this activity causes no harm to others or their property, or imminent threat thereof" you have a right to engage in that activity.

Now you go.

[friendly_iconoclast]

26. You like to speak freely and post your opinions online, and that's OK. But it's a fetish.

Admit it...

[cleanhippie]

28. I knew this would happen too!

You made a comment upthread, specifically attacking those who do not agree with you, then FAIL to respond to the many responses, yet here you are, posting ANOTHER nonsensical ramble that you will most likely not respond back to.

:puke:

[GreenStormCloud]

30. Let's take a closer look at what you said.

"Gunniez" really are just about the most defensive people on this site.
Because we are under constant attack by other progressives.

It's really quite unpleasant to deal with them.
We do use facts instead of emotions in our arguments.

I don't think your shit should be banned, for the most part.
"For the most part" means that you think some of it should be banned. We have learned from experience that the part that you think should be banned will grow until it is all banned.

But your fetish is for things that are designed to kill.
It isn't a fetish. And killing is not alway evil.

Admit it.
You have a fetish.
This is just another baseless accusation.

King George is not coming to get get you. I am not worried about that. I am armed because I want to be able to defend myself against violent street crime.

If you want to hunt and eat deer meat, you have my total support.
Only 20% of gun owners are hunters. The rest of us have guns for other reasons.

You like to collect shiny objects, and that's OK
Only some of us are collectors. I am not a collector. I have only a few guns and each one has a function that it performs.

But it's a fetish.
Admit it...
Being prepeared to resist violent crime is not a fetish.

[spin]

32. #2

[slackmaster]

31. My collection is a hobby, not the product of a fetish. It's part of my life savings.

Another amateur Internet psychologist vomits on the sanctity of the Gungeon.

[dmallind]

19. I'm in between, but closer to two

I am fine with banning or restricting things that, when used in any way (rather than used irresponsibly or to excess), causes significant harm to the user or appreciable harm to others not users.

This for example is the big difference between smoking in enclosed spaces (technically a behavior) and other supposedly analogous "sins" such as booze and fatty foods. Only the first harms others (think carefully before preaching MADDspeak - is that alcohol per se or behavior not necessarily connected? I can drink without driving. Can you smoke without causing ETS?) when used as intended. That's why I would not suggest banning smoking, but would support restricting its use to non-public access spaces where all visitors are willing adults.

An egregious example of self-harm might be drugs such as heroin or meth. No problem banning their use.

Guns on the other hand used responsibly for recreation harm no-one at all.

[Callisto32]

23. What, exactly, is ETS?

[Katya Mullethov]

29. Environment Tobacco Smoke

Come on Legal type guy , get with the program .

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. 
[link:www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html|Click
here] to review the message board rules.

[RSillsbee]

22. Third option

From my cold, dead hands.

Prohibition (of any kind) doesn't work

[guitar man]

24. #2

All prohibition does is create crime through black markets and those that battle over control of those markets. Prohibition is foolishness.

[old mark]

33. 2, definitely. If you hate guns, do not buy any. Leave my rights alone and live

your own life without dictating how I should live mine.


mark

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

36. My response, courtesy of derby378...

From a musical most likely titled "The Sound of Gunfire"

Glocks and Sig Sauers and 1911s,
AR-15s and AK-47s,
All of them fitted with tritium sights...
The Second Amendment says you have the right.

Winchester rifles with stocks done in camo,
Shotguns from Mossberg and plenty of ammo,
Your father's M1 from the Normandy fight...
The Second Amendment says you have the right.

If the mag holds
More than 10 shots,
Lautenberg gets mad.
The Second Amendment says you have the right,
So how can it be so bad?

Spray cans of BreakFree and gun-cleaning patches,
Silhouette targets in hundred-pack batches,
A new wrench for keeping that barrel nut tight...
The Second Amendment says you have the right.

Aimpoints and Leupolds and binocs from Bushnell,
Adjustable triggers and slings by the handful,
Rail-mounted Surefires to cut through the night...
The Second Amendment says you have the right.

If the stock folds
Or collapses,
It's on Feinstein's list.
The Second Amendment says you have the right,
So why is she still so pissed?

Short barreled rifles and short barreled shotguns,
Destructive devices and suppressors are great fun,
The staccato of full auto brings much delight...
The Second Amendment says you have the right.

Rebutting the antis with seldom redresses,
Reloading books and multi-stage presses,
Make sure your bores are clean, polished, and bright...
The Second Amendment says you have the right.

Body Armor,
Bug out Bags,
You'll get called paranoid
The Second Amendment says you have the right,
So try not to be annoyed.