Just a question to all the anti gun people

[john donathon]

Source: My own thoughts

Why is it that Vermont is one of the safest states in the country, and yet they have no gun laws. You are legally permitted to carry a gun almost everywhere in the state with the exception of schools, courts, and federal buildings. How is it that Vermont is ranked in the top 3 or 4 of the safest states to live in and everyone is allowed to carry a gun?

sorry no link

No link yet.

[smiley_glad_hands]

1. Low population density. eom

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[smiley_glad_hands]

5. No not really, there is a very healthy debate about it.

Personally, i think states should have the right to regulate handguns as they see fit.

On edit: regardless of whether or not they are more stringent or relaxed. Handgun policy in Montana is not a good fit for New York City.

[rrneck]

20. If they controlled movement across state borders it might work. nt

[PavePusher]

34. Does that apply to any other Amendments as well?

In this country, we don't apportion Civil Rights by geography or population density.

[GreenStormCloud]

28. Then why did El Paso, TX have only two murders last year?

It is a city of about 750,000 people, and more guns than people. Yet, for 2010 they had only TWO murders.

[Zoeisright]

2. Here's a question for you:

Why is it that every country with restrictive gun laws has a much lower rate of gun deaths than the US?

[shadowrider]

8. Why don't you get a list of

Homicides per 100,000 regardless of method and get a true picture of what countries are more violent than the U.S.

I'll wait.

[shadowrider]

9. Mexico?????

ROFL. I crack me up.

[friendly_iconoclast]

15. Jamaica????

[X_Digger]

16. Russia????

[GreenStormCloud]

29. So it is OK with you if someone is murdered by stabbing, or beating? N/T

[Jennicut]

4. Vermont is very rural and small. Ever been there? It is nothing like Arizona.

I live in CT. Been to Vermont dozens of times since I was a kid. Different factors at play in a small state like that.

[panader0]

10. Vermont has approx 66 people per sq mile

Arizona has 48

[sarge43]

13. Also fairly well do medium income $52K per annum

And a homogeneous demographic: 98% white and most of them northwest Europe.

Low population density (66 per square mile), little desperate poverty, and rather difficult for the bigots to stir up trouble when just about everyone is either family or looks just like you. So Vermonters aren't trying to massacre each other.

Oh yeah, VT is second in the country in percentage of high school grads.

[frazzled]

6. VT has higher Firearms Death rate than MA, with its stricter laws

It has a higher death rate from guns than Ohio, Delaware, Wisconsin, New York, New Jersey, and Connecticut, among others.

And this, with Vermont being the second least populous state in the country, among the most white and least poor, and largely small town and rural. Now that must bust your theory wide open.

Statistics here for Firearms Death Rate per 100,000 (most recent) by state

http://www.statemaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-death-rate-per-100-000

[Tejas]

24. DC has strictest laws, but 3x the death rate of Vermont. (I have a guess as to why)

In DC, due to their draconian gun laws, criminals are pulling the trigger. In Vermont, the criminals are the ones getting killed(?)

Murder rates:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state#MRord

[TexasProgresive]

25. DC's problem is that Virginia is right there

with lots of easily available guns and ammo.

[beevul]

26. It is unlawful...

It is unlawful for a resident of DC to buy a gun in virginia.

Besides that, its up to DC to enforce its own laws, not virginia.

If DC wants to have strict laws, the onus is in them to make those laws work, not thier neighbors.

If those laws dont work, the blame falls on them, not thier neighbors.

[TexasProgresive]

27. Like that works.

Mexico has strict gun laws but does that stop guns from U.S. gun shows making it across the border to kill innocent people making life miserable for many.

Should DC enclose itself and do an inspection and search of every vehicle and person who wishes to enter? Get real!

Visitors do not have RKBA rights without a license. This license is only issued for "sporting purposes".

Mexican citizens and "inmigrados" have RKBA in their homes, and only of permitted firearms. The privilege of carrying a firearm outside of one's home is limited to what is authorized by Mexican federal law.

All privately-owned firearms are registered with the Mexican army.

Article 11 of Ley Federal de Armas de Fuego y Explosivos lists prohibited "military firearms" in Mexico. They include:

* anything full-auto
* any semi-auto handgun larger than 380 (e.g., 9mm, .38 Super, or larger)
* any revolver in .357 Magnum or larger
* any rifle in larger than .30 caliber
* any shotgun larger than 12ga or with a barrel shorter than 25".

Where there are prohibitions, there are penalties. The penalties for possession of prohibited "military firearms" include: 3-12 months in prison for bayonets, sabers and lances, 1-7 years for .357 magnum revolvers and any revolver larger than a .38 Special, and 2-12 years for other prohibited weapons. You don't want to run afoul of this law!

Members of hunting clubs may be able to acquire hunting guns in an otherwise-prohibited caliber.

There is one gun store in the country (in Mexico City). It takes about a month for your purchase to be approved. Approval will be denied once you own more than 2 handguns or 10 long guns.

Carry permits exist for outside of your home, but generally not for mere mortals. Even if you get a carry permit, the biggest that you can carry is 380.

[beevul]

38. Wait...are you saying it doesn't?

"Mexico has strict gun laws but does that stop guns from U.S. gun shows making it across the border to kill innocent people making life miserable for many."

Doesn't stop the ATF from walking them across the borde iether:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m32E14g3nN0

"Should DC enclose itself and do an inspection and search of every vehicle and person who wishes to enter? Get real!"

If they're not going to do whatever it takes to make thier laws work, they have nobody to blame but themselves. Perhaps they should come to terms with the fact that they can't make them work, if they can't make them work.

Blaming their neighbors is unacceptable though.

[spin]

35. O.K. Why does DC have a high murder rate than Virginia? (n/t)

[PavePusher]

36. So how do you explain Virginia's much lower crime/murder rates?

[tridim]

7. See Canada.

Michael Moore made a whole movie about this question.

[damntexdem]

11. I am not anti-gun, I'm pro gun control.

And Vermont is a largely rural state.

[theoldman]

12. Vermont has a lot of farmers who are always armed regardless of which state they live in.

Vermont does not have any large cities with a lot of poor and uneducated people. Vermonters are not very religious either. All of these things add up.

[NewMoonTherian]

31. But doesn't that suggest...

that the factors governing violence are population, poverty, education and religion(not sure I buy that one, but I'll give it to you for our purposes here)? I don't necessarily agree with the notion that more gun freedom reduces crime significantly, but I certainly don't think that more gun freedom contributes to crime.

[Walk away]

32. I think you can combine all of those factors with easy access to deadly weapons...

and you have a large scale disaster waiting to happen. We don't let everyone have a hydrogen bomb in their basement even though most people aren't crazy or stupid enough to set one off.

So your point is that, even if you are the only person in the entire country that might not shoot his neighbor, everyone should have a gun because it interferes with your right to carry one. I still don't get it.

[hack89]

33. We have been waiting several decades for your disaster

and it has yet to happen. Gun ownership continues to climb while violent crime continues to fall to historic lows. You have never been safer your entire life. Perhaps it is time to reconsider your views on gun regulation.

[NewMoonTherian]

37. I don't think I communicated my point very well.

I was trying to say that I don't see evidence that access to guns effects violent crime, for better or for worse. It doesn't have a demonstrable effect.

I also have trouble reconciling the two parts of your post. In the first part, you posit that most people are not likely to misuse weapons, but in the second part, you set up a hypothetical wherein almost the entire population is dangerously unstable. There's a lot. There seems to be a lot of conflicting information to respond to, but I'd still like to carry on the discussion if you'd be willing to clarify a little.

[Walk away]

14. This is just a guess but the gun owners in Vermont are mostly hunters...

and farmers who actually use their guns to keep the pest population down or put food on their table. The types of guns they own may be a little different from the hard right, anti-people of color, frightened that terrorists are coming to get them, folks that buy the murder weapons that are so popular in Oklahoma, Texas and Arizona.

[frazzled]

17. Then why do they have such a high gun-death rate?

See my post above, with honest to god statistics, not just unsourced gut hunches. Vermont has more gun deaths per 100,000 people than NY, NJ, and about 15 other states.

[beevul]

19. Because their low population magnifies the rate.

But you knew that.

[ManiacJoe]

39. Someone understands statistics.

:evilgrin:

[NewMoonTherian]

30. Why gun deaths?

Why not all homicides and accidents? In an environment with more guns, there are likely to be more gun deaths. That's elementary. Why are gun deaths handled seperately from other deaths?

(Edit: I felt I was putting words in your mouth so I tempered part of my comment.)

[HockeyMom]

18. Have you ever been to Vermont?

I agree with everything the other posters have said. It's very rural, farmers, etc. Even Burlington, very nice place I may add, has very little in common with other "cities".

[Kennah]

21. Here in Washington

You have to get a Concealed Pistol License to carry concealed, but anyone who can legally possess a gun can carry openly. To get a CPL, they roll your prints, run a criminal background check, but there is no training requirement.

If you look at Table 9 of the FBI UCR, you'll see The Evergreen State (Washington) is #37 in murder, #26 in robbery, and #30 in aggravated assault.

If you look at Table 8 of the FBI UCR, of the 35 U.S. cities with a population over 500K, The City of Goodwill (Seattle) is #29 in murder, #19 in robbery, and #22 in aggravated assault.

Guns in populated areas isn't a problem. Maybe there isn't enough coffee in Arizona.

[hayu_lol]

23. What you really want to see...

is not the death RATE but the actual number of bodies stacked up.

Oregon is #28 @10.5 just under 4 million people
California#30 @9.8 population est at 36 million people
Vermont has fewer than one million people

Percents and rates and other tricky numbers are all the close friends of those in the NRA.

We haven't buried a percent or rate in centuries.

Ummm...and I'm not antigun by the way.

[ManiacJoe]

40. Don't be giving away my coffee!!!!

:donut:

[jody]

22. Are demographics the critical factor, e.g. Chicago murder 16/100k v Burlington 0/100k?

Source http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/data/table_08.html

[MrMickeysMom]

41. What are the statistics on safety laws and level of education?

Maybe that will shed some light on the subject