10 Mass Shootings With High-Capacity Gun Clips (magazines)

[RamboLiberal]

In the wake of the killing frenzy in Tuscon, members of Congress have called for a renewed ban on high-capacity gun magazines of the sort that allegedly let Jared Loughner take 31 shots and hit 20 people before pausing to reload. The Federal Assault Weapons Ban, which expired in 2004, limited new gun magazines to a maximum of 10 rounds. According to the DC-based Violence Policy Center, clips that hold more than that have featured in some of the worst mass murders in the US in recent years:

http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/01/10-mass-shootings-high-capacity-gun-clips

They come up with 10 from 1989 to 2011. And 5 of those 10 incidents came with primarily 15 round magazines which is probably the standard capacity with pistol involved. 5 extra rounds per mag is not that big a difference and I see no reason to deprive all the legal gun owners for this few of incidents!

[Arctic Dave]

1. Think of this way, if it was only ten, several people could still be alive.

But really, fuck them, it's all about me and my guns.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

4. or... his gun might not have jammed and he would've just swapped mags.

extended-magazines are a moot point. There are millions out there in circulation... certainly a criminal will get one if they want one.

[Arctic Dave]

14. So if there millions in circulation then stopping sell of them

will be moot point? As they are used in crimes and found in the hands of criminals there will be less of them to contend with. Much like fully automatic weapons. How often are they used in crimes?

[krispos42]

42. I don't think his gun jammed.

News reports say somebody grabbed his fresh magazine while he was reloading.




Of course, if he had used the standard 15-round magazine he would have had to reload at a different point in time. The situation would have turned out at least slightly different because of it. For example, because he reloaded faster, the people in the crowd would have less time to gather their wits and might not have been able to successfully jump him at that time. Then, after a successful reload, he might well have re-assessed the situation and done a better job of clearing the area around him for a second reload, or relocating before resuming fire.

:shrug: It probably would have been better if he's had a smaller magazine.


On the other hand, if he had had a sawed-off pump-action shotgun, the situation could have been a lot worse, too.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

44. True... had he used a simple sawed-off hunting shotgun things would've been WAY worse.

Consider the Remington 1100 - a common hunting firearm that even Second Amendment enemies have little quarrel with because it is considered strictly an Elmer Fudd hunting type firearm.



The Remington 1100 shotgun can hold 7 rounds of 2-3/4 12ga 00 buckshot (pronounced: "twelve-gauge double-ought buckshot") and can fire all of the shots in under 2 seconds. For those less familiar with 12ga buckshot, a common hunting load, it shoots nine 8.4mm pieces of shot at a velocity of 1300+ feet per second. Everytime you pull the trigger nine projectiles are fired. This means a common Rem 1100 shotgun can fire 63 (sixty-three) projectiles at 1300fps in under two seconds. Wow. For reference, a Glock handgun can only fire a single 9mm bullet at 1300fps (very similar size of bullet and velocity) but can only hold 17-30 individual projectives in it's magazine.

To put this in perspective... I don't believe there is a single 9mm SUBMACHINEGUN on planet earth, let alone a Glock handgun, that can match the firepower of even a simple semiauto shotgun like the Remington 1100. Shotguns are devastating weapons. And here we have a forum full of people up in arms about a silly little 9mm pistol... lol, typical know-nothings. :eyes:

Go ahead dummies, ban pistols and magazines so the next shooter can wise-up and use something like this. :web:

[RamboLiberal]

46. Widely reported including by sheriff his gun jammed

Sheriff attributed it to magazine spring. The 30+ round mags have a reputation of malfunctioning.


The carnage could have been worse. According to the sheriff's department, as Loughner fumbled to load a second clip, one of the 20 victims wounded by gunfire — a woman whose name has not been released — approached the assailant and was able to wrest the clip away. Loughner subsequently loaded a second clip, but its spring jammed. He was then tackled by two "brave, quick-thinking individuals" who pinned him until authorities arrived, Mueller said.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2041446,00.html#ixzz1B9Km1PcW

[krispos42]

47. So they were both right.

He emptied the first mag and reloaded, lost the 2nd mag to the woman, and had a failure to feed on his third clip, when he was subsequently tackled.


He came loaded for bear, didn't he?

[YllwFvr]

5. yeah it would save several people

Like Cho, the Virginia Tech shooter. His mags only held ten bullets each. It saved a lot of people.

Wait...not it didnt, guess it didnt matter.

He reloaded 17 times. Reloading doesnt take any time at all. Come back and try again

[Arctic Dave]

8. Reloading no matter how quickly takes time.

It gives people an opportunity to defend themselves or get out of harms way. Seconds do count when saving lives.

For all we know he could have killed more people because he didn't have to reload.

[shadowrider]

12. You're funny

How does someone defend themselves, with no way to do so, when bullets are flying in your direction?

32 people TRIED to get out of harms way and didn't make it. It takes a second to reload. That leaves NO time to rush the shooter.

[Statistical]

18. Even worse it doesn't take a genius to realize with two guns you are NEVER out of ammo.

That is what Cho did. He reloaded with one firearm and when people attempted to use that to their advantage (either running away, or rushing him) he shot them with the second firearm.

At no point were both firearms out of ammo at the same time.

[shadowrider]

25. Shhhhh

Anti's like to think he had one weapon and it took 15 seconds to reload.

[Arctic Dave]

20. Every second counts.

32 people tried to get out of harms way but you make no mention of the people who did get out of the way or had time to blockade themselves from the shooter.

If magazine size and ease of reloading doesn't make a difference the why don't the majority of mass murders use single shot or revolver type weapons?

[RamboLiberal]

22. Probably the bigger factor in Virginia Tech

is that Cho had to move between classrooms - that is what took the most time and gave victims an opportunity to barricade the doors and/or escape out windows or hide.

The reloading time wasn't as big a factor.

[Arctic Dave]

23. All factors don't have to big to be on your side.

Even if it's only a second.

[YllwFvr]

26. try less than a second

google Travis Tomasie. Now not everyone can be that fast, but with practice it can be comparable. I cant do that, but Im not too far off. BTW the most common gun used in crime is, yes, a revolver.

[Arctic Dave]

29. A revolver is used in mass murders?

Which ones?

I can't believe you are using a champion shooter as an argument for mass murders. What next NASCAR for drunk drivers.

[YllwFvr]

32. he practices

so did Cho, did well for him. He practiced shooting and reloading. I'm afraid I dont follow NASCAR ;)

Apologies if it came out that way. I thought I was more clear. Revolver being the most common firearm used in crime. I would have to say with this and the VT incident, the Glock 19 is the most common mass murder firearm. I think the Columbine shooters used one as well. Which doesnt make sense if you think about it, Its a 9mm, a semi weak handgun round, and its a compact. Its smaller, and holds less ammo. Ill check to see what they used quick. Nope, Im wrong. Cheap highpoint, in 9mm, and a Tec 9, both crap guns.

I used Travis as an example of how fast one can reload, and how little time it gives. But check out reloading on youtube for regular folks. Most are also fast enough that rushing would be a bad idea.

[Pullo]

36. Loughner also used FMJ's

Had he used self-defense ammunition the number of fatalities would have been much higher

Anyone know what type of ammo Cho used at VT?

One factor I suspect aided Cho in racking up the body count was his targets were basically trapped in classrooms. The Tucson shooting was outdoors.

[YllwFvr]

37. the cost of a decent hollow point

approaches a dollar per round. Probably a factor in the purchase. I havent seen what cho used, at a guess also FMJs or the media would have said so. They like to mention hollow points. Wiki doesnt mention his ammunition that I noticed

[Pullo]

38. Just found this. NBC claims Cho likely used hollow-points.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18209746/">According to NBC News, Cho sent media organizations photos of his equipment, including pics of hollow-point bullets.

If he indeed used hollow points, that surely contributed to the high number of fatalities.

[YllwFvr]

39. Thanks for the link

"All the you've given me, right back at you with hollow points"
I stand corrected.

[SteveM]

54. I heard some thugs used two jet airliners. nt

[shadowrider]

24. It's easier to get out of harms way when the shooter is 3 classrooms away

The better stat would be, how many of those in the immediate vicinity of the shooter got out of harms way without being wounded.

Not many.

Your argument doesn't hold water.

[Arctic Dave]

34. So space and time are a factor when defending ones self.

So limiting the amount a person can fire and the time to reload does play a factor.

[shadowrider]

43. Hardly, but you're free to keep living in the world you currently occupy n/t

[SteveM]

53. Hell, some prefer fertilizer bombs. SEE: Oklahoma City. nt

[one-eyed fat man]

31. He'd have killed more people

If the SWAT team had taken longer to enter the building. He was just leisurely strolling through classrooms shooting people while the campus cops were securing the perimeter, just like Columbine. He didn't have hours like Klebold and Harris, only 45 minutes.

Once the first cops with guns entered the building, Cho, like other mass killers killed themselves rather than risk being taken into custody.

[Euromutt]

48. Cho delayed the police by chaining the doors shut

It wasn't that the cops took their time securing the perimeter; most of the delay consisted of requesting a breaching shotgun be brought up, and then waiting for it to arrive.

[SteveM]

55. Gives new meaning to "campus lock down."

[SteveM]

52. "For all we know?" wow. what an argument. nt

[Euromutt]

49. Assuming all other things being equal, maybe

The problem with this kind of speculation is that it assumes the killer won't tailor his plan to the equipment he has available, and that's just not a very plausible assumption. If Loughner hadn't had extended magazines available, he might instead, for example, have acquired a second gun giving him 22 rounds ready to fire (assuming 10-round mags plus a round chambered); enough to rack up the same body count. In addition, he might have taken a page out of Tomohiro Kato's book and rented a truck with which to plow into the crowd before alighting and using weapons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akihabara_massacre). Note that, between the truck and his knife, Kato killed more people than Loughner.

You simply can't say with certainty "if the killer hadn't had this particular item, fewer people would have died" because you don't know that, if the killer hadn't had that particular item, he wouldn't have done things differently.

[X_Digger]

50. Loughner actually purchased a second gun on Nov 30..

So your premise is even more likely.

[SteveM]

51. Twain packed. nt

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

2. So... 10 incidents total... five of which still only used standard capacity magazines.

Personally, I wouldn't even include the use of magazines smaller than 15-17 rounds because nearly EVERY fullsize 9mm pistol has magazines of that capacity as a standard feature.

Clearly these incidents are so rare that an extended-magazine ban would not work.

[tridim]

3. 5 extra rounds, 5 extra dead people, no big deal.

:puke:

Disgusting.

[RamboLiberal]

Because in these incidents the shooters brought extra mags

The mag change that can be done in a few seconds (< 5 seonds) in most cases would've probably made little difference in the victim toll. Sad but true. These shooters brought extra mags with them.

I'm not insensitive to the victims but anyone who thinks this ban would lessen the toll is deluding themselves.

Oh and several of these killings occurred during the years of the AWB and the 10 round limit.

[YllwFvr]

9. several pistols I can think of

hold 20 rounds from the factory. NOT high capacity

btw, 30 bullets does not equal 30 deaths. Giffords herself was shot in the head and lived. Not the hollywood instant death people tend to believe. Many gun shot victims survive. A knife is far more deadly as it makes much larger wounds

[Straw Man]

13. Saving one life.

5 extra rounds, 5 extra dead people, no big deal.

:puke:

Disgusting.

So where would you put the limit? Isn't one death too many? If you really believe that these capacity limits will save lives, why even permit 10-round magazines? Why permit firearms possession at all? Isn't that really your position?

It's not a hardware problem. I wish you could see that. You cannot eliminate tragedy by restricting tools. I wish it could be done, but it can't.

[tridim]

30. If it was up to me, I'd put the limit at zero for most people, and three for people who have to hunt

But I'm not a lawmaker, so don't worry.

[Straw Man]

40. Zero

If it was up to me, I'd put the limit at zero for most people, and three for people who have to hunt

When you say "have to hunt," are you referring to subsistence hunters, or would you allow for sport hunting? And how do you arrive at the magic number of three?

I assume by "zero" you mean a total ban on firearms ownership outside of hunting. So is this what you have in mind when you complain that gun owners won't accept "reasonable" restrictions?

[SteveM]

57. Well, there's that slippery slope after all. nt

[SteveM]

56. Would you have preferred 5 extra "short" magazines? nt

[enough]

6. The death total for the 10 incidents is 140 people dead.

The highest number for one incident was 33 (VA Tech, 2007).

This seems like a lot of human beings to me.

[RamboLiberal]

10. And there were near 3000 dead on 9-11

Yet many here (including myself on some) rail against the TSA, body scanners, pat downs, liquid bans, no fly lists as useless at the airport.

All I'm arguing is that magazine bans are no different in effectivess in these incidents.

All in a lot of cases are nothing but feel good measures.

[Statistical]

15. Virgnia Tech involves 10 round magazines and resulted in more deaths.

The ban is ineffective and deprives law abiding of their rights.

Will cops be restricted to 10 rounds? Oh yeah. Nope. They all use >10 rounds. 15-18 is most common. Why because the extra capacity gives them options when engaging multiple intruders.

[RamboLiberal]

19. So is Violence Policy Center misstating Virginia Tech?

Cause I note they list Cho as using 15 round mags.

[YllwFvr]

27. either is possible

they do make single stack or "low cap" mags. I had read he fired 170 rounds, reloading 17 times.

[X_Digger]

33. This from wikipedia..

On July 30, 2007, after it came to light that Seung-Hui Cho had purchased on eBay two 10-round magazines for one of the guns used in the shootings, the online auctioneer prohibited the sale of firearms magazines, firearms parts, and ammunition components on its site...

However, this appears to be for the Walther-

http://www.bookrags.com/news/internet-key-in-probe-of-va-tech-moc/

And another source says 15..

http://www.concordmonitor.com/article/guns-were-easy-to-come-by
"Law enforcement officials say that the Glock Cho used had a 15-round ammunition magazine, banned under the federal assault weapons ban that expired in 2004. Several empty magazines were recovered at the scene."

[YllwFvr]

16. the VT incident

the shooter only used 10 round mags...

[RamboLiberal]

41. Yep shooter fired 174 shots & they found 17 empty magazines

You can do the math. He had 16-17 reloads so why do those who think a mag reload gives victims time to jump the shooter explain why Cho wasn't jumped.

[guitar man]

21. April 19, 1995 Oklahoma City

A truck, some fertilizer, some diesel fuel and a lunatic. Boom, 168 dead. No gun involved at all...

[YllwFvr]

7. Mine holds 17

and I dont consider it high capacity. Its what the gun comes with from the factory. A common carry pistol for police officers nationwide.

[RamboLiberal]

11. +1

I have 15 rounds that came with my Glock 19, and 17 with my M&P and Glock 17 and I don't consider them high cap.

[Statistical]

17. 15 rounds isn't high capacity despite what McCarthy thinks. It is STANDARD capacity.

[Kennah]

28. Reloading and magazine limits are red herrings

George Hennard (Luby's) reloaded several times, he had two guns, and no one intervened to stop him.

Colin Ferguson (LIRR) reloaded three times before anyone intervened to stop him, and that was in very close quarters.

The idea that a 10 round magazine will save lives is foolish, at best.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

35. You know its BS when they can not even get the words in the title correct

There are some decent comments there

[DissedByBush]

45. Interesting fact about Columbine and magazine size

Klebold had magazines with capacities of 52, 32, and 28 rounds. He fired 55 times, requiring one reloading if he started with the 52.

Harris had 13 ten-round magazines. He fired 96 times, requiring nine reloadings.

Plus he fired his pump shotgun 25 times, requiring at least five more one-round-at-a-time reloadings.

It doesn't appear the high magazine capacity allowed Klebold to shoot any more than Harris.