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Munson: Guns turning Iowa into wild West? Not so fast

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shadowrider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 03:36 PM
Original message
Munson: Guns turning Iowa into wild West? Not so fast
Boone, Ia. — Turns out that the key lesson in gun class is to keep your finger off the trigger.

The focus is on why not to fire your weapon.

At least that was my experience last week at one of those wildly popular "permit-to-carry" classes with 51 other Iowans in downtown Boone. These classes have seen capacity enrollment statewide. More than 150 people last month flocked to this same auditorium. Some who attended last week were spillover from that throng and received half off the $50 tuition.

--snip--

Hensyel wasn't exactly the Dalai Lama, but throughout his four-hour curriculum, divided into 10 chapters, he emphasized what seemed to be the Zen of wielding a gun in self-defense. Dressed in a gray T-shirt and blue jeans, he spoke into a headset microphone as he clicked through slides and video clips:

"Your brain is the most powerful weapon you have at your disposal," he insisted.

• "A gun is not a talisman" that wards off trouble. Openly carrying it might invite trouble.

• "Look inside your heart of hearts" if you think you want to own a gun. "Can you take another human life?"

• "You cannot carry a gun and have a sensitive ego; they do not work well together."

• "If it isn't worth dying over, it isn't worth killing over."


And so forth.

Other lessons weren't as philosophical. For instance, hollow-point bullets are best for incapacitating an attacker. Always aim at the torso, the largest possible target - especially considering that accuracy plummets in stressful situations, even for the most experienced shooters.

Hensyel calmly discussed the finer points of choosing a holster.

But he also didn't mince words when it came to hot issues.

"If you drink and carry, you're a dumb ass," he warned.

http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20110114/NEWS03/101140346/-1/WATCHDOG/Munson-Guns-turning-Iowa-into-wild-West?-Not-so-fast

Weren't we told when Iowa went to shall issue there'd be blood in the streets?
Why yes, yes we were
Has it happened?
NO
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rurallib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. well no blood in the first two weeks anyway
maybe want to give it a bit more time before declaring victory.
It's been so cold here I doubt many want a cold piece of steel in their pockets.
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GreenStormCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 03:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Didn't happen in the other states. Why should Iowa be different?
Everytime a state has gone shall-issue the anti-gun folks have hollered, "There will be blood in the streets." and it hasn't happened yet. Don't they get tired of saying that?
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Glassunion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 03:48 PM
Response to Original message
2. Ahem... Blood in the streets...
Course this one is getting his ass handed to him.


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chibajoe Donating Member (184 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Is that guy getting a beatdown from Urkel?
That would be embarrassing.
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shadowrider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Did IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII do that?
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Hoyt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 04:13 PM
Response to Original message
4. I think the instructor understands that many seeking a permit are cowboys -- hence the lectures.

Hope the lectures work.
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one-eyed fat man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. You keep beating that drum!
Turns out there were a couple of those despicable 'toters,' as you are sneeringly wont to call them, near the shooting in Tuscon. They did not respond by blasting everyone in sight or each other as you frequently predict.

One of them had his hand on his weapon (still concealed), but neither had weapons drawn. They held their fire and assisted in restraining the shooter.

Is not that exactly what a responsible, legally armed individual, law enforcement or civilian, is supposed to do?

Anyone who has actually undergone training will have heard similar. Most who teach emphasize the seriousness of the decision to carry a gun.

There's not much data, but what little there is show that civilians are less likely to shoot the wrong person than cops. Perhaps enough to give some of the more strident pause.

Can Citizens Use Guns Competently?

Ordinary people, even if they have passed a firearms safety class, cannot be trusted to use guns competently, it is sometimes claimed. The guns will be taken away by criminals, or the gun-owners will shoot an innocent bystander by mistake, it is sometimes predicted. Wherever the concealed carry issue is raised in the future, it can be predicted with confidence that these objections will be raised by reform opponents, including many law enforcement professionals who claim expertise on the issue.

The existing body of research provides no support for these fears. The best evidence we have about what happens when people have carry permits is the experience of the 1/3 of American states that issue such permits routinely. From these states, the most detailed data are those compiled by the Dade County (Miami) police. As discussed above, the police kept track of every known incident involving the county's more than 21,000 handgun carry permitees over a six-year period. In that six-year period, there was one known incident of a crime victim having his gun taken away by the criminal. There were no known incidents of a crime victim injuring an innocent person by mistake. In some cases the handgun permit holder was successful in preventing a crime, and in some cases not, but in no case was any innocent person injured as a result of mistake by a permit-holder.

Another study examined newspaper reports of gun incidents in Missouri, involving police or civilians. In this study, civilians were successful in wounding, driving off, capturing criminals 83% of the time, compared with a 68% success rate for the police. Civilians intervening in crime were slightly less likely to be wounded than were police. Only 2% of shootings by civilians, but 11% of shootings by police, involved an innocent person mistakenly thought to be a criminal.

The Missouri research does not prove that civilians are more competent than police in armed confrontations. Civilians can often choose whether or not to intervene in a crime in progress, whereas police officers are required to intervene. Being forced to intervene in all cases, police officers would naturally be expected to have a lower success rate, and to make more mistakes. Attorney Jeffrey Snyder elaborates:

Rape, robbery, and attempted murder are not typically actions rife with ambiguity or subtlety, requiring special powers of observation and great book-learning to discern. When a man pulls a knife on a woman and says, "You're coming with me," her judgment that a crime is being committed is not likely to be in error. There is little chance that she is going to shoot the wrong person. It is the police, because they are rarely at the scene of the crime when it occurs, who are more likely to find themselves in circumstances where guilt and innocence are not so clear-cut, and in which the probability for mistakes is higher.

In addition, the Missouri study was not restricted to "carry" situations, but also included self-defense in the home. Persons using a gun to defend their own home, who know its layout much better than does an intruder, might be expected to have a higher success rate than would persons using a gun in a less familiar public setting.

The most detailed information about civilian defensive gun use has been compiled by Professor Gary Kleck (a liberal Democrat, and member of the ACLU and Common Cause) in his book Point Blank: Guns and Violence in America. In 1992 the American Society of Criminology awarded the book the Hindelang Prize, as the most significant contribution to criminology in the previous three years. In Point Blank, Kleck studied computer tapes from the U.S. Department of Justice's National Crime Survey, for the years 1979-85. Analyzing the data from over 180,000 crime incidents in the National Crime Survey, as well from other studies, Kleck found the following:

- In no more than 1% of defensive gun uses was the gun taken away by a criminal.
- The odds of a defensive gun user accidentally killing an innocent person are less than 1 in 26,000.
- For robbery and assault victims, the lowest injury rates (17.4% for robberies, and 12.1% for assaults) were among victims who resisted with a gun.
- The next lowest injury rates were among persons who did not resist. Other forms of resistance (such as shouting for help, or using a knife), had higher injury rates than either passive compliance or resistance with a gun.


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john donathon Donating Member (53 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
7. uhmmm....
Vermont is one of the safest states to live in inside the United States, they are also allowed to carry guns without permits and have been for awhile. Can someone explain that to me, i don't understand.
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shadowrider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Shhhhhhh, it's the hole in the anti's argument they don't want to admit to. n/t
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john donathon Donating Member (53 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. yeah
i didnt think so anyways
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 08:09 PM
Response to Original message
10. I also teach shooting basics and my students are mostly GLBTQ
For those kind of issues we sit in a group and I use a moderated discussion technique to discuss such issues. It is amazing what comes out in those discussions.
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