So what's so great about the right to bear arms

[Jeneral2885]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908/ns/msnbc_tv-rachel_maddow_show#41067100

Are you more protected whne you own an M4/M16 while the polie are armed with small calibre weapons?

[AsahinaKimi]

1. Actually I think its better to

:hide:

[RSillsbee]

9. Took me a second

cute

[guitar man]

12. I tried that

I got sick of packing heat myself all the time and got myself a couple bears and strapped them up. It's all fun and games until they break into your liquor cabinet and shoot the joint up :silly:

[jody]

2. Self-defense is a personal responsibility. I respect your decision to surrender to criminals or bear

arms to defend yourself.

[eShirl]

5. oh Grasshopper....

[mrcheerful]

3. Gun's are like police until people realize that both are only good after something bad

happens, neither stop the event from happening so reality is it amounts to a false sense of security. The biggest difference is one you have to trust to show up while the other the person has quick access to. But both have a bad habit of biting the hand that pays for them but neither stops crime nor lowers crime, crime just has high periods and low periods which experts are at a loss to explain other then winter vs summer.

[RSillsbee]

10. Stopping the event

I was the would be victim of an attempted mugging outside my home several years ago. The reason I say attempted is because the mugger made some very important life choices about the time my pistol cleared leather.

your statement is incorrect. My gun did stop the event from happening

[mrcheerful]

15. So because you got lucky that 1) the mugger wasn't armed with a gun pointed at you and

2) he was alone, the gun saved you not that you got lucky is BS. That is the problem with life, nothing is ever the same twice and no matter how good you think you are life has a bad habit of surprising you. It amounts to me saying because I survived 5 cars hitting my motorcycle in the course of 30+ years of riding that I can't be killed in a cycle accident. Luck played more into the accidents then skill, though skill played a part too, it wasn't just skill that saved me from serious injury, I also got lucky that in that split second before impact I choose the right course of action.

You are basically saying because of that 1 time the gun worked it will work the same the next time. Life is not that predictable nor are all muggings going to happen the way that mugging happened. Some muggers ambush victims instead of facing off with the victim, I knew one that would come up and smack the victim in the back of the head with a baseball bat because he had a victim pull a gun once after that he wouldn't give the victim a chance to pull a side arm. He finally got caught by police and is now doing time without parole. Can't use a gun when your laying on the street knocked out can you?

[Statistical]

18. Who said that. A gun simply gives you options.

Nobody said it works 100% of the time. It doesn't need to work 100% of the time to be effective.

Less than 30% of burglaries involve ANY weapons. Only 48% of robberies involve firearms. The rate of firearm use in other crimes like assault and rape is even lower.

So being armed statistically means you will have a competitive advantage over your attacker. It doesn't mean it is 100% but given the choice I will take the advantage.

Also many people have fought off criminals even when criminal has a firearm.

I wouldn't recommend following suspects but this Pizza deliver guy shot suspect despite the suspect having gun aimed at him (something you claim is impossible)
http://www.wsmv.com/news/26018139/detail.html

[mrcheerful]

19. No I didn't say it was impossible what I said was guns aren't always

the answer, it just depends on the criminal mind your dealing with at that time.

[Statistical]

20. Ok then. I misunderstood.

We agree guns aren't always a solution for effective self defense but given we can't know what scenario we run into I am glad to have the "option".

[mrcheerful]

22. Glad to clear that up, I am not anti gun I just try to have more then 1 option

to any given situation, some times its best to toss your wallet one way and run in the other direction, which is why I never carry money or credit cards in a wallet.

[Callisto32]

25. GTFO is always the best option.

Sometimes that is not possible.

If I have to fight (I have been in a life/death struggle over a firearm I did not bring to the fight) I want the best tools possible to do it. What that best tool is is unique to the situation, definitely. Sometimes the best tool is a firearm, unfortunately.

[benEzra]

33. The Way of the Running Foot is one of the most useful of all martial arts. (n/t)

[RSillsbee]

35. I said was guns aren't always the answer

No, you said guns were never the answer. I just happened to prove you wrong

[GreenStormCloud]

24. Simple solution: Situational Awareness

If you are alert to what is happening when you are alone, you won't get hit from behind with a bat.

[RSillsbee]

34. You are partially correct

My gun didn't stop the event. Guns are inanimate objects that can't do anything on their own. That said the fact that I had a gun allowed me to sucessfully defend myself.

Now after hearing that you're moving the goal posts.

You are basically saying because of that 1 time the gun worked it will work the same the next time.

No, I'm not saying that, I'm saying that contrary to your statment I was able to succesfully defend myself w/ a gun. I never claimed that a gun was a magic wand.

Also, unlike you, I would prefer that each citizen were allowed to make their own choice w/ regard to carrying or owning a gun for self defense.

[no_hypocrisy]

4. I'm guessing it's like having too much money: you have "options".

Not likely you'll need or use your weapons, but you have a false sense of security.

[steve2470]

6. Lesson from history: Adolf Hitler's use of firearms registration

http://www.stephenhalbrook.com/registration_article/registration.html

The Night of the Broken Glass (Kristallnacht)--the infamous Nazi rampage against Germany's Jews--took place in November 1938. It was preceded by the confiscation of firearms from the Jewish victims. On Nov. 8, the New York Times reported from Berlin, "Berlin Police Head Announces 'Disarming' of Jews," explaining:

The Berlin Police President, Count Wolf Heinrich von Helldorf, announced that as a result of a police activity in the last few weeks the entire Jewish population of Berlin had been "disarmed" with the confiscation of 2,569 hand weapons, 1,702 firearms and 20,000 rounds of ammunition. Any Jews still found in possession of weapons without valid licenses are threatened with the severest punishment.

[safeinOhio]

14. Article from the NRA magazine

fails to mention how long and how would they have confiscated 250 million guns, like we have here, instead of a few thousand. Perhaps a false equivalence?

[Statistical]

7. Actually you got it backwards.

Civilian ownership of automatic weapons is almost non-existent due to 1986 ban. However many Police departments due have automatic weapons.

Not sure where "small caliber" fits in 5.56mm is about as small as it gets.

[stray cat]

8. Civil rights if nothing else

I carry pepper spray - I want that right

[jeepnstein]

13. If that works for you, great.

I've used pepper spray far more often than a firearm. It really takes the fight out of someone, most of the time.

I got sprayed with it once and managed to keep on fighting my suspect. It wasn't until my training officer saw him ripping at my holster that he stepped in to give me a helping hand. That lesson stuck with me. Pepper spray can take the fight out of someone but with enough resolve you can overcome it's effects.

It's also pretty good on dogs but pigs just get mildly annoyed by it.

If a public version of the Tazer is available to you I strongly recommend you take a look at it. It hits with the same voltage as the police-only model but cycles for thirty seconds, which is longer than the cop version. It's a very powerful tool.

[Statistical]

16. Also Tazer will replace it for free if you lose it in a self defense situation.

So fire, and while they juice for 30 seconds just run away.

My only issue with Tazer as self defense is you get a single shot.

[guitar man]

11. not very many people own either

A M16 will set you back over $10k, plus the tax stamp and all the legal hoops you have to jump through to buy it, not to mention the security arrangements you have to have for it that the ATF may come to inspect from time to time.

As far as a M4, I'm not sure you can even own one, I think they were all made after 1986?

[Flyboy_451]

17. Actually you can own an M4

Th M4 is just a variation on the M16 platform. The lower receiver is identical, so it is just a matter of equipping it with the appropriate upper receiver, barrel, butt stock, ect. Or if ya really want to, you can make the investment to get your Class II manufacturers license, and build your own new one. Granted, this is expensive as well as cumbersome, but it is far from impossible. This is referred to as a "post sample" gun, because it was built after the 1986 cutoff date. This would be a non-transferable gun, meaning that it can only be transferred to another manufacturer or a government agency. Lots of hoops to jump through, but completely legal.

JW

[Javaman]

21. The best argument about the 2nd amendment was on Rachel last night.

If you want to hunt, great, go for it. If you feel the need for the protection that the concept of a weapon will bring you, fine, knock yourself out.

But if you are one of the lunatic fringe who feel that we must need to arm ourselves to protect yourself against a "tyrannical government", well, you're a half wit.

Why? Here's why.

If you want the possibility of a "tyrannical government" to vanish, the demand that the US government, disarm or cut back on their weapons.

Honestly, you fringe types think you are going to go up against tanks, attack helicopters, napalm, mortars, and nukes are, in a phrase, fucking crazy.

Are you stupid enough to start an arms race with the government? Why not have them cut back instead of us having to carry more?

Because, it's not about "rising up against tyranny", it's about the fetishising of big guns. period.

If the various "patriots" were actually Patriotic, they would demand, that we cut the military budget, cut back on all our bases, get rid of the nukes, and have a very small standing army.

But no, the militia types and the fringe element of the NRA are all about having the weapons for "JUST IN CASE!!!"

And frankly, think about it, if the government does suddenly freak out and become a full on dictatorship, do you honestly want these half wit militia rambo wanna be's telling you want to do?

Not me.

[mrcheerful]

23. For some unknown reason these fringe second amendment freaks think that

instead of following military leaders that the military men and women will ignore orders and join them in the over throw of the government. Kent State did one thing for the left, it showed us that the military will fire on unarmed citizens, even if they claim it was an accident after.

[bossy22]

26. police are armed with the same thing

first off you arent armed with an m4/m16- those are automatic weapons which are strictly controlled. you can own its semi-auto cousin- the AR-15.

[spin]

27. It might be the reason we have the oldest written Constitution ...

Only about 7,000 words long, the U.S. Constitution is one of the shortest constitutions in the world. It is also the oldest written constitution still in effect.
http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/modules/constitution/index.cfm

[Jeneral2885]

30. and so

that does not make it the most relevant in today's world

[spin]

31. Well we might find out if we repealed the Second Amendment ..

and confiscated all the firearms. (Impossible, but for the sake of the argument lets say a "miracle" happened.)

It would be my bet that our government would be overthrown in 20 years, quite possibly by a military coup.

[Jeneral2885]

39. and that may be good

it would end the neoliberal doctrine stemming from America.

Military coup from who? I think all four services are largely disunited. By the time the army wants to act, the Air Force and Navy would have used their nukes.

[rrneck]

37. There y'see. Now I'm learning something. Cool. nt

[Jeneral2885]

28. *police

*police

[spin]

29. Very few citizens own fully automatic weapons, many police departments do ...

As absurd as this sounds, the troubling fact is the 600-plus M-16 automatic rifles a weapon of warfare given out to the Los Angeles police department alone, the 7 given to the tiny police department in Jasper, Florida population, 2,000, and the multitude that have gone out to hundreds of other police departments across the nation. With this kind of unnecessary firepower, it becomes obvious that police departments, and SWAT teams in particular, are being induced into an aggressive and militaristic nature.
http://www.libertyreferences.com/police-swat.shtml

Note: I personally have no problem with police departments owning M16 assault rifles or other military weapons.

[benEzra]

32. What are you talking about? M16's and M4's are *ONLY* available to the police (and military)

in the United States, without explicit Federal authorization (i.e., a BATFE Form 4), and only a handful of pre-1986 collectibles may be possessed by civilians even with a Form 4. American gun owners are generally limited to non-automatic, non-sound-suppressed Title 1 civilian firearms under .51 caliber, except shotguns and some hunting rifles which may exceed .51.

Please familiarize yourself with the National Firearms Act of 1934, as amended in 1968 and 1986.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act

If you're thinking about non-automatic civilian AR-15 type rifles, those are small-caliber weapons. In fact, they are the smallest centerfire rifle caliber in common use on the U.S. civilian market, and are only half or so as powerful as a typical deer rifle.

As far as pistols go, AFAIK the most popular centerfire pistol caliber among non-LE civilians is 9mm (.355"); the most popular caliber among U.S. law enforcement is .40 S&W (.400").

[ileus]

36. The M4 is a small caliber....unless

You build/buy a 6.8 6.5 7.62x39 or one of the other less common uppers.

I plan on buying a 6.8 upper for hunting this year since the 223 is illegal to hunt with in Va. Now I use the 5.56/223 in WV to hunt deer.

[notadmblnd]

38. I don't live my life according to the philosophy that there's a boogeyman around every corner

and that I will be a victim of them. I do believe that when it's my time, it's my time and nothing is going to change that. Whether I die from disease or violence. I refuse to buy into the atmosphere of fear and prefer to believe that most people are good. I don't place myself on situations where violence is likely nor do I associate with people of questionable backgrounds as far as violence goes. However, I do realize that there are nuts out there and something could happen at anytime, I believe the odds of dying by some device other than guns is much more likely. So, I have to say no, there is no weapon out there that would make me feel more secure than I already do.

[SteveM]

43. Agreed...

I don't subscribe to "an atmosphere of fear," and also believe "that most people are good." Good advice about associates and situations. I sleep well at night, and have a .357 beside the bed. Just in case "there are nuts out there."

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DissedByBush]

41. There wasn't someone with a gun at that scene at that time

He came later, AFTER the shooter had already been subdued.

When people say this, they mean they wish there had been someone there to take him out as he started shooting.

[Francis Marion]

42. Why not use language precisely.

Do you understand the terms you are using? It seems that you may not.

I would say that greater than 99.9 percent of all American M4 or M16 owners ARE the Police Department or the military.

And what is it about 'small calibre weapons' that makes them unsuitable for Police use, assuming that there is any truth to your understanding of how things are?

[AtheistCrusader]

44. Cluck cluck, gibber gibber, my old man's a mushroom, etc.