So then what will it take before the ban on assault rifles

[malaise]

is law.

Who will they have to kill, maim to stop this madness?

[Rabrrrrrr]

1. When someone comes up with a definition of "assault rifle" beyond "something that looks scary"

And Loughner used a pistol, not one of those scarily named "assault rifles" that seem to get the anti-gunner's undies all twisted up.

[Obamanaut]

2. +1 nt

[HillbillyBob]

3. Assault weapon then

Who needs a 30 round clip unless hopelessly inept.

Most people I (D or R)know round here take out the target with one or two shots max, and any more than that is wasted ammo.

[safeinOhio]

21. I think you'll find few, if any

cases of the use of 30 rounds ever used in self defense. The only time I have seen that used is in spraying bullets at someone escaping or running away. 85% of self defense gun fire is from 6 feet or less away. The most popular self defense weapon is a 7 shot 1911, 45 caliber pistol or a 6 shot 38.

[RSillsbee]

35. The most popular self defense weapon

The most popular self defense weapon is a 7 shot 1911, 45 caliber pistol or a 6 shot 38.

Can you cite evidence of this or are we just speculatin'?

[Atypical Liberal]

48. I do.

I don't hunt. I target shoot. I enjoy using high capacity magazines because I can spend my time shooting instead of loading.

But that is really beside the point. The reason for the second amendment is so that civilians own small arms suitable for and comparable to those in use by infantry forces of the army. High capacity magazines are the norm for that application.

[Ter]

The 2nd Amendment isn't about hunting deer or target practice

It's for self-defense and protection.

[Ter]

66. Dupe

[DrDan]

4. and that gets the gunners all a'quakin' in unfettered desire

[PavePusher]

54. Ad Hominem. Next? n/t

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LARED]

5. What in the world makes you think banning "assault rifles"

will stop the madness?

[dsc]

6. He got off 31 shots and got stopped while reloading by a wounded old lady

had his clip held 10 he would have gotten 10 shots off. Who knows who would have been saved if the extra 21 shots weren't shot.

[LARED]

9. 10 verses 31 still seems like madness to me. nt

[dsc]

20. tell that to the family of the people who died from bullets 11-31

[LARED]

53. You missed or ignored my point and instead choose

To make an emotional appeal.

[malaise]

10. Ding ding

etc.

[The Straight Story]

13. He wouldn't have got off more than a few rounds if someone else there had had a gun

:)

[dsc]

18. actually someone did have a gun there

and he was deciding whether to shoot it or not while the old lady tackled the guy.

[DrDan]

25. the "more guns" argument - so expected

life is good when surrounded by a bunch of Rambos

[PavePusher]

56. More ad hominem. And here I was expecting better from you. n/t

[One_Life_To_Give]

14. Buying Large Mags like buying Pot

In some parts of the country it would only be a question of which street corner you chose to make the purchase.

[safeinOhio]

24. This shooter bought what was legal to buy.

If he could have, I'm sure he would have bought a full auto uzi on the corner. Not offered for purchase on many street corners. In fact, few crimes are committed with hard to buy, registration required, fully automatic weapons. Those laws must be working.

[DainBramaged]

26. Except in the movies everyone has one

[lawodevolution]

29. in the 2 seconds it takes to reload a magazine you can't run up on someone

he had other problems, I believe it was a jam. You cannot stop someone while he is changing magazines unless he is taking his time.

[dsc]

30. yea it is surely just a coincidence that he was stopped

after successfully shooting 31 bullets (exactly what his magazine held) and while reloading. Give me an ever loving break.

[lawodevolution]

33. this particular high cap magazine has a tendency to cause problems

which he probably had. Still, you will not ban high cap magazines so get over it. Already the websites that sell high cap magazines are running out of stock because there is currently a rush on them thanks to the new threat of banning them. In a few years once the sale of high cap magazines drops back down to normal level after the fear that they are going to try to ban them is over your little panic will have caused a huge proliferation of ownership of high cap magazines. In the end that is all you will accomplish. Even if the feds pass a ban, many states will allow their residents to purchase high cap magazines that are manufactured inside of the state, which they had already prepared (using the 10th) after Obama was president. What this will cause is the construction of factories to make high cap magazines in each state which will add to competition and after this silly capacity ban is lifted or expires prices will drop, thus adding to the proliferation of high cap magazines. Similar to how the AWB threat from gun ban supporters continues to sell those guns like hotcakes.

[table1]

73. i haven't stayed on top of this story

have the exact number of rounds he fired been given? 31 rounds is an odd sounding mag capacity for a glock 9mm.

[RSillsbee]

37. had his clip held 10

Most Glock 19 magazines hold 15 rounds. In 1991 George Hennard attacked a Luby's Cafeteria w/ a 15 shot Glock 17 and a 10 shot Ruger P98. according to eyewitness accounts he was able to very methodically kill 22 people and injure 24.

When Suzanna Gratia Hupp(one of the survivors) testified before congress in opposition to the first AWB she stated "the size of the magazine doesn't matter, I've been there it took him less than a second to change clips. That's not enough time for anyone to rush him"

[dsc]

38. ok so 15 instead of 10 making it half instead of a third

my point is still there, oh and I am sure it was just total coincidence that he just happened to get off 31 rounds (what his magazine held) and got stopped reloading. The fact is either he was inept at reloading or you are just plain wrong either way in this case, a smaller magazine would have saved lives.

[RSillsbee]

39. It takes just as long to change out a 15 round magazine as a 10

The reports I've read indicate that Loughner was trying to reduce a jam caused by a magazine malfunction when he was over powered.

The last time a Democrat controlled house passed a law limiting the number of rounds a magazine can hold the republicans got the White House, The Senate and The House of Representatives for the next decade in return.

Sound like a fair trade to you?

[dsc]

41. wouldn't increasing the number of magazines by lowering their size

also increase the number of jams caused by malfunctioning magazines? And sorry, but I don't believe the convenient jam theory. As to your other point, 1994 actually was a better election for us than the one we just had, so we may as well have passed the gun control then too and get it over with.

[RSillsbee]

45. Increasing the number of magazines by lowering their size

My understanding is that his magazine spring broke becauseit was so long. a smaller magazine w/ a shorter or more powerful spring wouldn't break as easily.

Sounds to me like you just want to ban something. Did you read what I wrote about the Luby's massacre? Magazine size isn't going to change the outcome.

Maybe,just maybe we should focus on better mental health care to work on preventing these types of incidents.

ETA Just so you are aware the companies that make these high capacity magazines are already selling out because people are buying in front of a perceived threat of a ban. So, all this rhetoric is actually doing is putting more high capacity magazines on the street

[friendly_iconoclast]

59. We should believe him and not an eyewitness to one of these spree shootings.

Mustn't let empirical evidence impede faith, dont'cha know?

[dsc]

63. an eyewitness who has repeatedly used it to argue against any and all gun control

she is totally biased. the facts in this case were that he stopped shooting to reload and they stopped him. That isn't my account it is the eye witness account at that shooting.

[Atypical Liberal]

49. The jam theory is correct.

wouldn't increasing the number of magazines by lowering their size also increase the number of jams caused by malfunctioning magazines? And sorry, but I don't believe the convenient jam theory.

The reason why such extended magazines are prone to failure is this: Basically a magazine is a box of bullets with a spring at the bottom. As you push in bullets, that spring gets compressed into the bottom of the box. With zero bullets in the magazine, the spring is at maximum extension and least compression, and with a full load of bullets the spring is at minimum extension and at maximum compression.

The problem is that as the magazine gets longer, so does the spring that goes in it. That spring must provide enough force to feed the very last bullet in the magazine. But this means that as you push bullets into it and it starts to get full, that long spring starts to get very hard to compress. Thus there is a limit to how long you can make the magazine and have it usable and functional over the full range of capacity, from full to empty. To little (or too much) spring force and you will get "failure to feed" (jams).

You'll note that Loughner got off about 30 rounds, but the stock magazines for the Glock 19 are 10, 17, 19, and 33 rounds. Now it's possible he had an aftermarket magazine of only 30 rounds, but it's also possible that he had failure to feed problems with the long 33-round magazine.

[PavePusher]

57. No. The point is that larger capacity magazines tend to jam much more frequently than smaller ones.

It's inherent in their design and materials.

[mvccd1000]

76. No.

Longer magazines are notorious for causing jams, because as you get down to the last 2-3 rounds the spring is overextended and lacks the strength to completely push the cartridge up into the chamber.

Had he been using standard magazines, it's VERY unlikely he would have experienced a malfunction with a Glock, and there would probably be an even more horrendous outcome to this story than there is now.

The "two seconds" claim about reloading is no bs... often when I'm out shooting in the desert, I'll load a couple of magazines with different numbers of rounds (4, 7, 15, etc.), then mix them up so I don't know which mag has how many rounds. I'll insert one and begin shooting until it unexpectedly runs out on me, then hit the release, let it fall to the ground, slap a new one in, and hit the slide release. I'm generally well under two seconds from the time the slide locks back empty until the time I hit the release and fire the next round - and that's without knowing when I'm going to run out. (No way to count when you don't know how many rounds are in the magazine.)

To the extent there was anything that went "right" about that shooting, it's the fact that he was stupid enough to select a magazine that made an otherwise incredibly reliable firearm malfunction. If not for that, he probably could have kept shooting until he ran out of targets.

Just my .02, based on experience.

[GreenStormCloud]

51. You assume that he would not have had some extra mags available.

Are you aware that a reload takes less than one second? Or a shooter can have more than one gun. Also, extended mags can be made in a home workshop.

[PavePusher]

55. And maybe he wouldn't have fumbled his reload with smaller magazines.

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[Xenotime]

65. First, ban Hello Kitty Assault Rifles...

[aikoaiko]

7. The so called assault weapons ban didn't stop the Columbine school shooting "madness".

Truth is that violent criminals plots, scheme, and find a way to do what they want.

I encourage our side to not use the emotionality of the violence in Tucson to make laws that mostly only affect law abiding folks.

And for the record, an "assault rifle" was not used in the assassination attempt in Tucson.

[Spider Jerusalem]

8. WTF? You are aware that Loughner used a HANDGUN, aren't you?

Also, an assault rifle is a type of weapon with a pretty narrow definition: a fully-automatic military weapon firing a small-calibre to intermediate round. Assault rifles are not legal for civilian ownership. "Assault weapon" is a meaningless political term some idiot thought up that refers to semi-automatic weapons that "look scary", basically. (So an AR15 is an "assault weapon" and a functionally identical semi-automatic rifle chambered for .223 Winchester that lacks features like the pistol-grip stock and detachable magazine is not.)

[Tejas]

12. Doesn't matter, the Republican-based Bradyites will

spew anything to trample the Bill of Rights.

Mark my words, next up is an attack on the 1st Amendment.

[Tejas]

15. Because a firearms ban has worked so well in Jamaica?

You sound "familiar".

[DainBramaged]

16. Liken thisn mullett gun for target practice?

Which the guy looks like he's getting a hernia holding it.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[benEzra]

32. And possessing that weapon without Federal authorization is a 10-year Federal felony.

I think that's a Lahti, a pretty rare collectible that you have to fill out a lot of special paperwork with the BATFE to own (the law treats it like a howitzer), unless it's been permanently deactivated. If it's real, the "redneck" schtick he's got going on is probably for humor; you have to have money (and a squeaky clean record) to have one of those.

[DainBramaged]

36. Yup, 20MM anti-tank gun youbetcha.....good for killin' them thar deer.....

:silly:

[benEzra]

42. I'm sure he owns it for deer hunting like the collector with a 1935 Deusenberg SJ

owns it for hauling groceries.



It's a wealthy collectors' item, not a deer gun.

As an aside, I fail to understand the obsession with hunting among advocates of gun control. The overwhelming majority of those of us who own guns don't hunt.

[DainBramaged]

44. And you gun owners NEVER fail to miss the humor.......

Loosen up. NO ONE is taking your guns, NO ONE, not even the scary Black Man who was ELECTED President....

[PavePusher]

58. Have you actually got anything relavent to add?

P.S. Your "humour" was based on open bigotry. Stay classy...

[benEzra]

70. Ummm, this very thread is discussing a ban on the most popular civilian rifles in the nation.

You have posted in other threads advocating the banning of the most common magazines for civilian rifles and pistols as well, so you damn well know such bans are on the table.

I do agree with you that I think no such ban is likely to actually be enacted, as I do not think our President is foolish about this issue like Bill Clinton was. President Obama gave the Third Way'ers a big dose of STFU when they started pushing this crap early in his Presidency, and I do not believe he will suddenly start wasting political capital on it. Having said that, I did learn my lesson in '94, so I'll probably hedge by buying a few spares just in case the DLC gets its way.

(And I am proud to call a person of color my President, FWIW. President Obama's inauguration was historic; I watched it with my kids and made sure they understood the monumental significance of that moment. We can disagree on gun policy, but we can agree on that.)

[DainBramaged]

71. (sigh) just fall in the NRA trap, a 'couple of spares' how many people can you kill before you are

killed? Is this mentality of 'spares' just your way of telling us you just don't trust the Government enough that you want to defend against them?

And you got the wrong person (please don't accuse me without links). I am against handguns and non-hunting weapons period (do not tell me that anything other than a deer rifle or shotgun is necessary to hunt in the USA), not just extended magazines. If you can't shoot it with two hands, you don't need it.

So sad. Paranoia due to guns.

[benEzra]

72. Your condescension is touching...

but magazines are consumable items. Criminals and nuts don't wear them out, but shooters who spend a lot of time at the range do (unless the mags in question are steel AK mags, which last forever).

If you found out that the cost of replacement tires for your car were going to be hiked 500 percent, I dare say you'd stock up on a spare set or two.

As to hunting, I don't have anything against it, but I don't hunt, and neither do the vast majority of lawful gun owners. And while I respect your opinion about gun ownership and your choice not to own them or be around them, I choose differently.

[DainBramaged]

74. Your paranoia isn't touching. I'm 60, haven't owned a gun, and have no need, and I am NOT afraid

Sorry you've fallen victim to your fears.

Count your bullets, if it makes you happy.

On edit

Wearing out magazines? Give me a break that's just beyond lame. Put down the guns and get a life.

[friendly_iconoclast]

60. It cant be dangerous, it only has a 10 round magazine. That *is* what you lot want, right?

Apparently you think large-cap magazines compel people to go on shooting sprees....

[DissedByBush]

67. It's probably banned in CA like the .50 BMG is

Because you know those gangstas love to roll with a 20mm for drive-bys.

And they're so easily concealable.

Fact is, there's not one record of a crime ever having been committed using one of these guns. There's only one case .50 BMG being used in a crime, and that was the Branch Davidians in Waco, so the "crime" thing is debatable.

[Carolina]

19. A miracle... did

you watch Rachel last night? She opened with a powerful account (incident by incident with news clips) of many -- not all -- of the gun massacres since Loughner's birth in 1988. And after each one, there were the same stupid reactions by media and politicians alike of incredulousness ("how could this happen?") and bewilderment.

And each time, nothing changed! We won't even debate gun control any more!

[jody]

22. You do know that assault rifles are covered by Title 26 CHAPTER 53—MACHINE GUNS, DESTRUCTIVE

DEVICES, AND CERTAIN OTHER FIREARM -- don't you?

It's sad that so many DUers don't know what an assault rifle is or the difference between an automatic firearm and semiautomatic firearm.

Ignorance however does not deter them from spewing nonsense and commenting on the inalienable right to keep and bear arms for self defense.

Nor do they know that government is not obligated to protect individuals and that self-defense is a personal responsibility.

[Statistical]

23. assault rifles have been regulated since 1935. Oh you mean "scary looking rifles".

assault rifles = military grade automatic weapons. Heavily regulated in the US (same category as explosives, rocket launchers, mines, etc)

assault weapons = made up term to classify "scary looking black rifles".


You mean the bill that ATF and DOJ concluded had no effect on homicides or violent crime.

You mean the bill that after it expired crime continued to decline for over a decade.

Are you are we are at a 30+ year low in violent crime and homicide rates? That's right it was more dangerous every year of that 1970s, 1980s, 1990s, and 2000s then it was in 2009 & 2010.

[Katya Mullethov]

27. New Italian assaullt rifle will be available by mail order

High capacity , considered by experts as the original assault rifle ,it can fire up to 400 rounds a minute and the mailman will deliver it .
The questions is , "Will they build it ?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSgqsvu5s9w

[lawodevolution]

28. nothing will happen that will allow you to ban assault rifles

get over it

[benEzra]

31. Ummm, maybe if rifles weren't the LEAST MISUSED weapons in the United States...

your rhetoric might be taken a little more seriously.

http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/data/table_20.html

Total murders...........................13,636.....100.00%
Handguns.................................6,452......47.32%
Firearms (type unknown)..................1,928......14.14%
Other weapons (non-firearm, non-edged)...1,864......13.67%
Edged weapons............................1,825......13.38%
Hands, feet, etc...........................801.......5.87%
Shotguns...................................418.......3.07%
Rifles.....................................348.......2.55%

The 5-year trend 2005-2009, again per the FBI Uniform Crime Reports. Rifle homicide, already the rarest of all classes of homicide, is trending down:

2005: 442
2006: 436
2007: 450
2008: 375
2009: 348

FWIW, if you didn't notice, the shooter in Arizona used an ordinary pistol with an aftermarket magazine, not an "assault weapon" of any description. Using the tragedy in Arizona to push for new and pointless rifle bans is just sleazy, IMO.

[RSillsbee]

34. It will take a congress

That is willing to hand control of the house to the repugs for the forseeable future to get their pet law passed

[old mark]

40. The use of any type of rifle in crime is so infrequent the FBI considers it insignificant...

FWIW, the "Ban" on "Assault rifles" was feel-good political nonsense that stopped absolutely NO crime, and only accomplished increased prices for those of us who bought such guns after the "ban" was enacted.

If you want the Democrats to never win an election again, agitate for a new "Assault Weapons" ban.


mark

[slackmaster]

43. Logic fail

Someone uses a handgun to murder several people, and you want to ban some kind of rifle.

[Euromutt]

46. This is a propos of what, now?

Just in case you missed it, Saturday's shooting in Tucson was committed using one of the most common models of 9mm handgun around. Not an (selective fire) assault rifle, nor a semi-auto "military-style" so-called "assault weapon." Simple hands, feet, ligatures, pilows and plastic bags are used to commit almost three times as many homicides as rifles are, and that includes non-"assault weapon"-type rifles, such as lever-action .30-30 deer rifles.

[Atypical Liberal]

47. It will happen when rifles are commonly used in crime. They aren't.

So then what will it take before the ban on assault rifles is law. Who will they have to kill, maim to stop this madness?

It will happen when rifles are commonly used in crime. They aren't. Today, per FBI UCR statistics, all rifles, not just assault rifles, account for fewer homicides annually than hands and feet.

There is no rifle crime problem in America today. Rifles simply aren't conducive to crime, mostly because they are not concealable.

[GreenStormCloud]

50. The AZ shooter used a pistol and you want to ban rifles? N/T

[jeepnstein]

52. Get to work repealing the 2nd Amendment.

Once you've got that done get back to us.

[Pancho Sanza]

61. Reminds me of the old joke: "My brakes don't work, fix the horn."

:eyes:

[Pancho Sanza]

62. Wait, you're in Jamaica? Where guns are essentially banned???

http://www.jamaicancaves.org/jamaica-crime.htm

[DissedByBush]

64. A drop in the collective IQ of about 40 points. n/t

[ileus]

68. the 200 dollar tax stamp and 1000's of buck price keeps...

them out of the hands of most.

3-4000 dollars buys a starter automatic rifle / sub machine gun...

[Hangingon]

69. Are assault rifles legal in Jamaica?

A very quick check Google shows several articles on how gun control is not working there. Another Google search shows lots of drug gang shootings there. Take care of home first then help us.

[guitar man]

75. "assault rifles"

There is exactly one weapon here that is capable of full automatic fire and could be classed as an "assault rifle" if you will.The rest are semi-automatic rifles. See if you can find it.
A:


B:



C:



D:



With all the talk of "spraying rounds" there is only one in this post that can actually do it.

[Francis Marion]

77. What'll it take before the ban on trains

is law.

How many death camps will they have to fill to stop this madness?

Trains- that's all they're good for.

Eh, wait a minute- I have ridden on plenty of trains, and nobody ever got killed!

Maybe it depends on the people using the trains?
.
.
.
Naaah! Trains assisted genocide, and therefore they must go.

Only engineers and sleeping car porters 'need' trains.

Blades have been used since prehistory to hunt animals or kill people. They too must go. Only chefs 'need' knives.

Booze must go- people get drunk and then drive around, killing and injuring people. Only bartenders 'need' booze.

In actual fact, legislative 'assault weapons' don't fit the proper definition thereof. I'm sorry, but a legislator has no business enacting a ban over an item which they cannot even properly define: a semiautomatic firearm is NOT an 'assault weapon'.

Legislative 'Assault weapon' = any firearm a lawmaker does not like, does not think you 'need.'

Military assault rifle = a select fire (capable of firing like a machine gun) in an intermediate cartridge fed from a detachable magazine.

Hijole.

In this day, semiautomatic, magazine-fed firearms are within scope, intent, and spirit of the Second Amendment for The People.