Murder Of Wildlife Conservation Officer Blamed On Lax Gun Laws

[Kennah]

http://www.philly.com/inquirer/opinion/20101117_Inquirer_Editorial__Blame_lax_gun_laws.html

The shooting death Thursday of David L. Grove is all the more appalling since he was the first state wildlife conservation officer to be slain on the job in nearly a century.

Police have charged an Adams County man, Christopher L. Johnson, 27, whom Grove apparently suspected of poaching.

Friends and family of Grove, 31, are right to consider this a senseless shooting. After all, how could any poaching infraction be worth someone's life? But Grove's death had more to do with lax handgun rules and enforcement than any hunting dispute.

As a convicted felon barred from owning a firearm, Johnson would have had no business carrying the .45-caliber handgun that police say was used to kill Grove. In fact, police say the shooting may have started because Johnson knew that he faced possible jail time merely for being caught with an illegal gun.

...

Oy. Well, gee, golly, I mean the threat of life without parole or the death penalty wasn't enough to deter the murder of a law enforcement officer, so how exactly would tougher gun laws have changed this?

From pictures I've seen online, Officer Grove looks like a kid to me.

Rest in peace.

[rfranklin]

1. Yep, let's use the murder of this man as a reason to promote...

the removal of gun control.

[proteus_lives]

3. Sadly, the first impulse of many people.

Bans, bans, bans.

Anything but blame the person who actually committed the crime.

[Euromutt]

7. Who promoted any such thing in this thread?

Kennah simply notes that it's highly tendentious and nonsensical to blame this killing on "lax gun laws," as the Inquirer editorial does; he didn't say anything about relaxing any gun laws.

[benEzra]

11. Ummm, the OP was objecting to the use of the murder of this man as a reason to promote

gun control. No one is saying that possession of guns by violent felons should be legalized.

Or are you OK with dancing in the blood of the innocent as long as it moves things in the "correct" direction?

[one-eyed fat man]

2. Catch and Release in PA

http://www.gettysburgtimes.com/news/article_cd267ac4-f1f4-11df-8d1a-001cc4c002e0.html

The Gettysburg paper has more details. The scumbag who shot the game warden was not "unknown" to the law. He was just another career criminal let out early. He was never even prosecuted on Federal charges for stealing guns from an FFL. That alone should have kept him behind bars.

The shooting and killing of Grove is not Johnson’s first run-in with the law, perhaps the most serious, prior incidents found to date by the Times were the multi-store burglaries of 2002.

On Jan. 1, 2002, Johnson was accused, along with one or more co-conspirators, by State Trooper Nicholas Bloschichak of breaking into Sunglasses Outlet and Factory Brand Shoes, Adams County, by breaking the windows of the stores to gain entry.

On Jan. 9 Johnson was accused, along with one or more co-conspirators, of breaking into Lincoln Trading Post, York Road.

Documents obtained by the do not state what, if anything, was stolen during the course of those burglaries.

On Jan. 9, Johnson was also accused of burglarizing Redding’s Hardware, 279 S. Franklin St., Gettysburg, in which he reportedly stole between 20 and 25 handguns.

The guns were taken from a display case and valued at an estimated $12,000 to $15,000.

Police stated Johnson had gained access to the weapons by hacking away at a rear basement door on the west side of the store using a crowbar.

Johnson was apprehended on or before Jan. 11 after reportedly attempting to sell some of the stolen handguns to an undercover law enforcement officer and was arraigned before District Justice John Zepp and incarcerated in the Adams County Adult Correctional Complex in lieu of $100,000 bail.

The various burglaries were consolidated for purposes of imprisonment and restitution, with Johnson having plead guilty to felony burglary and felony felony criminal conspiracy.

As a result of the combined burglaries, Johnson was placed in the Intermediate Punishment Program for 48 months.

He was also ordered to pay $1,000 to Redding’s Hardware, $9,093 to Meridian Insurance and/or the State Auto Manual Insurance Company, $3,872 to Sunglasses Outlet, $2,718 to Sunglass insurance, $644 to Factory Brand Shoes, and $250 to Lincoln Trading Post.

Johnson was most recently charged prior to last week’s shooting on July 2, 2005, by Liberty Township Officer Daniel M. Lanious.

Johnson’s residence was listed in the charging document as 1760 Shrivers Corner Road, Lot #121.

According to the police complaint filed, Lanious charged Johnson with three counts of recklessly endangering another person, two counts of endagering the welfare of children, and one count each of fleeing and eluding police, exceeding the speed limit, reckless driving and disregarding marked lanes of travel, following a police pursuit which was initaited on Johnson’s vehicle in the 1500 block of Tract Road.

Johnson’s vehicle was finally stopped in Fairfield Borough on Steelman Street.

Lanious ordered Johnson to the ground at which point the accused was cuffed.

Lanious noted there were three over occupants in the vehicle, including Johnson’s girfriend, Danielle L. Johnson, a 15-tyear old male, and a 14-month-old female.

[Remmah2]

19. +1

Good description of the criminal justice system.

[ileus]

26. Stealing guns should be punished like robbing a bank.

[pipoman]

4. Yep, complete nonsense

that line of reasoning. Where did he get his gun? How about we start there. If it was purchased by a girlfriend she gets 20 to life and a very public trial.

[RSillsbee]

6. The article says he stole handguns

were do you think he got it?

[pipoman]

8. I do believe there should be a requirement for the reporting of stolen guns

all too often straw buyers and family members of felons with guns simply proclaim theft to avoid prosecution. In a perfect world these people could be prosecuted for leaving the guns in a place they could be stolen by a felon without having to make reporting mandatory. OTOH it is certainly possible he bought a stolen gun or burglarized to get it. I am just ready for prosecutions of the buyers of guns for felons. They need to be felons themselves so they can't do it again.

[Remmah2]

18. I can't imagine why a person who had been burglarized wouldn't report it?

I'd sure as hell want to make every attempt to recover my property. However I do no believe I should be penalized for an illeagle act by another person. It's like punishing me for their crime.

[pipoman]

44. The problem is that a straw purchaser will

claim theft but will never report it, while you are right, most if not all law abiding owners would report their theft. This would leave those prosecuted by far and away the straw purchasers.

[RSillsbee]

20. Can you cite an example

Of a straw buyer claiming theft? I'm sure it's happened but I doubt it happens as often as you think it does.

[pipoman]

43. It happens all the time

that a girl friend or relative claim theft when their felon relative/boy friend are caught with their gun. In fact I can't find anyone prosecuted for straw purchase because it is difficult/impossible to prove the weapon wasn't stolen. If there were a requirement to report stolen firearms at least the straw buyer could be prosecuted for failure to report.

[Kennah]

69. Unfortunately, I can ...

... and I know of this case because the offender was a shirt tail in-law relative. He died a couple years ago, and several in-law relatives weren't too sad to see him go.

LE had found guns, that he bought legally, at several crime scenes in Virginia, New York, and I believe D.C. over about a 9 year period before one of his guns ended up in the hand of an 18 year old who shot and paralyzed a cop.

When the cops questioned him AFTER a cop was shot, he suddenly remembered he'd been the victim of several burglaries over the years in which his guns were stolen. Yeah. Sure. Space aliens would have been a more convincing story.

BATFE had known about this for 9 years, any half wit could figure out he was illegally trafficking, they didn't act, and they waited until after a local cop got shot.

Because the BATFE looked like dipshits, he got prosecuted under state laws and ultimately pled to misdemeanor crimes. IIRC, what he pled to wasn't enough for him to lose his guns and he was sentenced to time served--all of one actual night in jail before he was out on OR.

I get so fucking sick of hearing how the BATFE doesn't have the resources to check into ensuring every gun shop and gun owner are complying with the law. Complete bullshit! They get clear and convincing evidence that some asshole is illegally straw selling guns to criminals involved in the drug trade, so the BATFE sits on their collective hands.

http://www.herald-mail.com/?cmd=displaystory-comments&story_id=62837

[pipoman]

72. In addition

the NICS reveals ineligible people who are trying, actively, to buy guns yet almost none are even investigated, let alone prosecuted. This is why I openly oppose ANY new gun laws whatsoever...the existing laws are so blatantly disregarded and ignored by law enforcement we certainly need no more no matter how "common sense".

[Euromutt]

9. If he was halfway smart, he wouldn't have used a gun he'd stolen himself

Though habitual offenders are admittedly not generally known for being the smartest of people. Still, generally, people who steal guns don't hang onto them: they fence them, often to their friendly neighborhood drug dealer. The fact that this guy was known to steal guns doesn't mean the gun he used to shoot the WCO was one he'd stolen. It's equally plausible he bought or traded it from a connection who in turn got it from some interstate trafficker, who in turn acquired it using a straw purchaser.

[DissedByBush]

5. "Blamed On Lax Gun Laws" ???!!!

It was already illegal for him to own the handgun!

The article even admits it!

Total biased bullshit.

[safeinOhio]

10. Unless it was

found to have been bought out of a trunk at a gun show as an unregulated private sale. Also, were any of those handguns he stole ever sold in an unregulated private sale? We will never know.
Need more info before we jump.

[oneshooter]

12. Why don't you ask if the handgun was registered?

That would have solved all of the problems. :sarcasm:

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[benEzra]

14. I've been to a whole lot of gun shows, and have never seen any cars in there...

Methinks you have your memes crossed a bit here. "Selling out of a trunk" is the meme for black-market street sales, not gun show sales...

BTW, it is *easy* to find if it changed hands in a private sale; trace it. Of course, that would require an investigator to actually pick up the phone and make some calls.

If the gun was stolen from a lawful owner, though, then whether the lawful owner purchased it in a private sale or not is completely and totally irrelevant to the crime.

[safeinOhio]

16. You've never taken a gun

to a gun show and not had many people ask you in the parking lot "what do you want for it"? I've even bought a handgun at a garage sale, legally with no questions asked. I had to have the police run a check on it later to make sure it wasn't hot. I'll bet there are lots of stolen handguns sold in private sales. Can't prove that any more than you can prove they aren't. Allowing private sales without background checks creates a market for stolen handguns.

[benEzra]

17. Ah, so now we're discussing a private sale of a handgun, not a trunkful of guns...

You've never taken a gun to a gun show and not had many people ask you in the parking lot "what do you want for it"? I've even bought a handgun at a garage sale, legally with no questions asked.

Ah, so now we're discussing a private sale of a firearm between individuals, not someone selling a bunch of guns out of their trunk...so at least now we're on the correct meme. Yes, I have purchased one (1) gun from a gun show without a background check, an antique (and rather collectible) Polish (Radom) Mosin-Nagant M44, from a C&R licensee. He asked to see my DL to verify my residency; I may have also shown him my CHL, I don't recall.

I'll bet there are lots of stolen handguns sold in private sales. Can't prove that any more than you can prove they aren't. Allowing private sales without background checks creates a market for stolen handguns.

Again, wrong meme. The purpose of background checks is to weed out illegal *purchasers*, not screen guns for theft. My state requires a background check for private sales of handguns, but that has nothing/zilch/nada to do with commerce in stolen guns. Having a database of stolen guns somewhere, where a private citizen could check to see if any of her/his guns have ever been reported stolen, might be helpful in that regard, though.

[safeinOhio]

23. In the state I use to live in

a permit to purchase also required a serial #. A check was run on the gun. A good idea to catch stolen guns..

[one-eyed fat man]

25. How long does something have to be stolen?

Before the original owner loses his title?

One of the things that Brady, et al are pushing for cops to DESTROY all guns that come into their possession for whatever reason, after they are no longer needed for legal proceedings.

Yes, that is precisely what they don't want you to catch. Your stolen gun is recovered, and once the police no longer need it for evidence, it is to be destroyed.

It is not to be returned to you, despite you being an innocent victim of a theft.

This precise logic was used to put a rare machine gun into the museum at West Point. A 1914 Maxim stolen from an American Legion Post was recovered and held for decades by the Raritan, New Jersey PD before being turned over to the Army.

When the owner of the gun sued for the return of his stolen property, the ATF testified that the NFA Registry was NEVER INTENDED to be used to reunite stolen property with its rightful owners. The Federal judge ruled despite having a valid registration for the machine gun, the owner had no standing to sue.

Wheaton V. Caldera

Nice "catch-22" you are promoting with your insistence on registration. Your allies at Brady and the VPC are all for it, but their aim is to use it for confiscation. What's your angle if states are being urged to pass laws so recovered guns are to be destroyed and not returned?

[safeinOhio]

28. That is a simple fix

include in the law that all stolen guns be returned. Cars are returned if insurance has not been claimed. What is so hard about all of this? Your friends in the white power, anti-government militias just want to scare everyone.


To be polite, I'm sure you have no friends in the white power movement, just as I have none in Brady bunch.

[one-eyed fat man]

30. Pennsylvania and New Jersey

The policy in both those states now is not to determine the lawful owner of guns seized as evidence or other wise come into police custody. They are routinely destroyed.

An owner can report his gun missing and the police will not even acknowledge they have it.

New Orleans, despite losing its suit over guns it claimed not to have confiscated is still playing fast and loose.

"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" - Juvenal

I was born in Germany in 1942. My parents and I came to the US in 1954 sponsored by my father's great aunt in Barberton, Ohio. What would you like to tell me about Nazis and Communists?

[safeinOhio]

37. My great great great....

5 generations back grandfather was a merchant Irish boat owner during the revolution, supplying the rebels here with goods. Our family was not paid until 150 years later and were paid. What are you going to tell me about THIS country?

Laws can and are changed by elected people. If your cause is great enough, they listen if they want to be elected. That is how America works. Because 2 states have bad laws, so what? Move or get them changed. That is how it works. I said nothing about Germany or Russia.

I have a friend that came home from work at the factory and was taking a shower. The phone rang and it was the police saying they had his car that was stolen. It was stolen while he was in the shower. Seized by the police and returned before he knew it was gone. Of course it was licensed and registered.

[RSillsbee]

35. How many stolen guns did it catch? NT

[safeinOhio]

40. My guess is that

most, if not all, were taken to Ohio and sold with no questions asked.

[RSillsbee]

47. IOW it was a dismal failure

Noted

[RSillsbee]

21. Isn't it already illegal to sell a stolen gun?

So, how will making it more illegal help?

[safeinOhio]

24. With the serial #

on record, you'd know if it was reported stolen. Just as when you now purchase a firearm from a dealer the report includes the serial # of the purchase. Try selling a stolen handgun to a FFL dealer.

[PavePusher]

32. There needs be no "registration"...

to know if it was reported stolen. If it was reported, there is a record. Obvious non-sequiteur there.

[safeinOhio]

38. If you bought it from a

private sale, there is no way to know if it was stolen unless you take it to the police and ask. Makes it real easy for crooks to sell it.

[pipoman]

61. A simple phone call

how much simpler can it be? Registration wouldn't be accessible on line or openly. There is simply no justification for the expense of registration nor is there utility in a registration database.

Receiving stolen property is a crime in most states and ignorance or failure to call police isn't a defense on a serialized item.

[RSillsbee]

34. IOW registration

no

[safeinOhio]

39. I would have no problem

as I am legal. Why would you have one.

[PavePusher]

41. Because if I'm not a criminal...

and not threatening other people, it's none of the governments business what I own as personal property. Period.

[safeinOhio]

42. Great

don't give that damn government your social security number. Don't register or drive your car. Don't give em your W2 statements either. You should not give out your address to register to vote either. Don't let em know you own a house or what it is worth so you won't have to pay tax on it. Or, move to Somalia.

[RSillsbee]

48. You know how I'm going answer right?

Registration is a precursor to confiscation when you can promise me that no politician will ever use the registration rolls to confiscate ever we'll talk

[safeinOhio]

50. If you are scared, then

there is nothing I can do or say to make you brave. We live a different life. That is one of differences in the two parties. One gains it's power and following with fear and the other in trust and progress. I guess we can't talk.

[RSillsbee]

51. Interesting implications in your post

I guess that's the difference between authoritarians and liberals one trusts law abiding citizens to do the right thing given a choice and the other tends to trust draconian statist laws.

You're right (very right) we can't talk

[Euromutt]

74. There's a thin line between courage and foolhardiness

Frankly, I'm more than a little tired of the amount of insinuations along the lines of "you're scared/living in fear" in an obvious attempt to shame the opponent into silence. As if acknowledging one's fears, and preparing for the worst, were something to be ashamed of?

Am I coward for putting a seatbelt on my child and myself? Clearly, I'm afraid of his or my being injured or killed in a motor vehicle collision, after all. I also keep a fire extinguisher handy when I'm smoking or grilling, because I'm afraid I may accidentally set fire to something I don't want to set fire to.

Okay, I hear you cry, but those are realistic fears, fears of things that have a non-negligible chance of occurring, and for which is only reasonable to be prepared. That is as may be, but it's shifting the goalposts. A statement along the lines of "unlike you, I refuse to live my life in fear" or, for that matter, "if you are scared, then there is nothing I can do or say to make you brave," is simply a roundabout way of saying "I'm brave and you're not, therefore I'm morally superior to you, therefore I'm right." By way of analogy, compare these two arguments:
"I don't wear a seatbelt because I think the risk of a motor vehicle collision is so low that any benefit derived from it does not outweigh the discomfort and the risks if my car goes into a body of water"; and
"I don't wear a seatbelt because, unlike you, I refuse to live my life in fear."
The differences between the two arguments are the same as between those concerning gun ownership and policy.

And, of course, the claim that "I refuse to live my life in fear" is, coming from a gun control advocate, a falsehood. The very proffered rationale for gun control is that it is necessary to prevent certain people from committing criminal acts; in other words, fear of violent crime. It's not that gun control advocates aren't afraid, it's just that they're afraid of different things.

[PavePusher]

53. Oh dear, where to start...

SSN's come from the government and, by law are not supposed to be used for ID purposes.

W2's come from the government.

Car registration has little to nothing to do with public order and safety, and everything to do with taxes and money.

Address for voting is to prove eligibility to vote in particular elections. Only Citizens may vote, residents may vote only in their own district.

I don't believe property taxes are fair. Taxes should be based solely on income.

And then the Somalia Strawman(tm). Whateveh...

[PavePusher]

54. Self-delete, double-post.

[Glassunion]

66. Are you basically saying that if we have done nothing wrong

than we should have nothing to hide?

Sounds familiar, yet I cannot seem to put my finger on it. Hmmmm...

[pipoman]

60. Anyone can cal the local law enforcement

just like an ffl and the local law enforcement will run the serial through NCIC just like they do for an FFL. The reason FFLs catch stolen guns is because they make that call. I have done this prior to buying every gun I have ever bought from a private seller.

[Euromutt]

27. "Can't prove that any more than you can prove they aren't."

Your claim, your burden of proof; that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

Personally, I strongly doubt the existence of legal private party sales without NICS checks creates a market for stolen handguns; given that a criminal demand for firearms--especially handguns--exists, there will be a market for stolen handguns whether or not private party sales are restricted.

[safeinOhio]

29. No evidence on

your assertions too. Please try not to blame me for something and then do the same.

If a crook steals something to buy drugs with, he will, or she, sell it where ever the quick $ is. With no way to trace, we most likely will never know.

[PavePusher]

33. Well, except for the fact that, as long as the serial number is intact....

it CAN be traced.

You seem to be ignoring that fact.

[safeinOhio]

36. fact is

then the gun would not be sold in the open market, thus making it worth little and a sure ticket to jail. That is the whole point.

[friendly_iconoclast]

45. Would that be the same "sure ticket to jail" as Johnson got for stealing 20+ guns?

Your proposed law would no more stop criminals getting guns than banning Four Loko will stop alcohol poisoning, or banning the
sale of bongs stopped illegal cannabis use.

[RSillsbee]

49. You mean like marijuana can't be sold on the open market

and is worth little?


Do you really not get that all you're doing is making thing more difficult for legal owners and not effecting criminals at all?

[safeinOhio]

52. It is sold on the open market in many states

only requires a $150 doctor visit. Makes it legal and no cheaper. I do not believe it does not effect criminals. Full autos are very regulated, licensed, registered and rare in crimes. You'll find marijuana cheaper on the black market because it is a crap shoot as to the quality. I don't think you can compare the two. I see no difficulty for legal buyers of guns. I lived in a state that required background checks on private sales of handguns and had no problems buying from a private party, just as I have no problem buying from a gun store. To me that is a red herring as I have done both with no difficulty.

[RSillsbee]

56. I'm Sorry

But I just can't envision your "Iron pipeline' of illegal guns flowing North form the redneck swamps of the South to the illegal gun bazaars of NYC.

A decent quality handgun costs upwards of 700$ dollars new you can only jack the resale price so high where is your profit margin?

If I understand the DOJ correctly most crime guns enter the "market place" through theft not straw sales and not private sales (Unless you really want to strectch your definition of "private sale" to include selling a stolen gun)

Registration and universal background checks wouldn't effect that at all

[oneshooter]

62. Full autos are very expensive because

The registry has been CLOSED. A full auto Thompson was $2-4 thousand each before the registry was closed. Now they are $10-30 thousand. Can you guaranty that YOUR registration will not be closed by the government? Thus causing firearms to be too expensive for "the people" to own.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas

[RSillsbee]

64. You're obviously just living in fear

do I really need this :sarcasm: ?

[PavePusher]

55. And if it has no serial number...

it's not likely to be traceable.

So that kind of kills the registration argument.

[Euromutt]

58. Every gun legally manufactured in or imported into the United States has a serial number

Every such firearm is traceable from manufacturer/importer, through distributor and dealer, to initial private buyer; this applies to every gun legally manufactured or imported since 1968. In spite of which, guns with serial numbers are stolen, fenced or traded for drugs, and resold on the black market; guns with serial numbers are also straw purchased from FFLs and trafficked. Your claim simply doesn't stand up to reality.

[Euromutt]

57. Oh, come off it

I hardly think it's an outlandish claim that requires documentation that there is a criminal demand for firearms, particularly handguns. Such a demand exists even in the United Kingdom, where private ownership of handguns is completely outlawed. Thus, it follows that there will be a market for stolen (hand)guns even in the event legal transfers between private parties are strictly controlled; that's just simple logic. Because neither the kind of person who burgles houses to steal guns, nor the kind of person who buys guns with which to defend gang turf or commit armed robbery, is the kind of person who's going to abide by the law that says sales between private parties have to go through an FFL.

There's a difference between making an argument that logically follows from known facts (what I'm doing), and making a claim that runs counter to logic, and would thus require evidence to be credible (which is what you were doing, minus the "providing evidence" part).

[jeepnstein]

13. A few things.

Firstly. Being any kind of wildlife officer is very dangerous work. It's a shame this young man was killed in the line of duty.

The alleged shooter? He is a career criminal who wasn't supposed to have a firearm under the current laws. He chose to ignore those laws, as well as the laws against poaching, murder, and who knows what else. In other words he's a criminal. Criminals by definition don't obey laws whether it be regard to murder, theft, or weapons possession. I don't see how passing another law would have prevented him from murdering a Law Enforcement Officer in the line of duty.

[one-eyed fat man]

15. Traditionally, game wardens are reasonably safe.

Wildlife conservation officers or game wardens, if you're still old school, are among the lowest risk LEO for getting shot in the line of duty. This is despite being largely alone when in the field and almost constant contact persons who are armed. As noted in the article, this was the first wildlife officer killed since 1914. The last game warden killed in Kentucky was nearly 20 years ago, and that was by a guy fishing without a license.

The story here is not that a game warden was killed by a suspected poacher. The story is that a career criminal was not prosecuted for all the crimes he already had committed. Had been released early and was back on the street breaking any law that suited his whim at the time. Is there really such a shortage of criminals in Pennsylvania that they need to release criminals so the cops have somebody to catch?

Why are we not reserving our critically short prison space for the violent predators. Let them shank shank each other in the yard. They could release the non-violent dopers to go toast their brains as long as they are not harming anyone but themselves, who cares?

[jancantor]

46. game wardens maybe

Depends what you mean. For example, in the last 2 yrs, 2 different USDA Forest Service officers were shot and killed. One of their primary duties is patrolling national forests for game violations.


http://www.odmp.org/agency/3949-united-states-department-of-agriculture---forest-service-law-enforcement-and-investigations-u.s.-government

My state doesn't have "game wardens". We have the state Dept. of Fish and Wildlife. They have uniformed, armed patrol officers whose primary enforcement duty is in regards to fishing, hunting, and fowling...

On the other hand, the fact that so few game enforcement officers ARE shot and killed, and that they deal nearly exclusively with armed individuals is yet another piece of evidence that it's not guns that is the issue - it's violent criminals with guns.

[Kennah]

65. Game wardens, park rangers, DNR, F&W, and the like ...

... used to be a pretty safe gig. However, in recent years the drug war has been encroaching as the illegal drug trade, at times, moved into the woods.

Almost 20 years ago when I took Hunter Safety, the Maryland DNR officer who did the law portion told of a fellow DNR officer who walked up on a couple of "hunters", or so he thought, and they opened fire on him. He fortunately had a good reaction and dove to cover behind a downed tree and survived without a scratch.

For years, there have LE gigs which were deemed "safe" and/or "not real cops", and they sometimes exhibited what is sometimes known as a "part time attitude". It can be fatal.

I talked to a county cop from my former home state of Maryland, and he knew personally a fellow county cop who was murdered some 15 year ago. He ascribed to the murdered officer, whom he described as a friend, the trait of having a part time attitude.

I'm not saying that is what happened to Officer Grove, and in fact by all accounts he very much had a full time attitude towards LE.

Cops working "safe gigs" these days are taught to have full time attitude. Rabid RW gunworld, like THR, often bemoans the "militarization" of LE in areas like game wardens.

[jancantor]

68. I agree with all this

the forestry officer who was killed last year here in WA found a suspicious vehicle near Forks and was shot and killed. Later the guy was killed by another officer near Sequim iirc. He was not a hunter, but he was in the woods. I carry when I go hiking, fwiw. By the way, we recently had a hiker killed in WA state by a friggin' MOUNTAIN GOAT of all things...

[Callisto32]

22. Something that happens once a century, is now grounds to limit rights....

talk about reactionary.

[spin]

31. Cop Killer Bullets ...

In the mid 1960's, Dr. Paul Kopsch (an Ohio coroner), Daniel Turcos (a police sergeant) and Donald Ward (Dr. Kopsch's special investigator) began experimenting with special purpose handgun ammunition. Their objective was to develop a law enforcement round capable of improved penetration against hard targets like windshield glass and automobile doors. Conventional bullets, made primarily from lead, are often ineffective against hard targets especially when fired at handgun velocities. In the 1970's, Kopsch, Turcos and Ward produced their "KTW" handgun ammunition using steel cored bullets capable of great penetration. Following further experimentation, in 1981 they began producing bullets constructed primarily of brass. The hard brass bullets caused exceptional wear on handgun barrels, a problem combated by coating the bullets with Teflon. The Teflon coating did nothing to improve penetration, it simply reduced damage to the gun barrel.

Despite the facts that "KTW" ammunition had never been available to the general public and that no police officer has ever been killed by a handgun bullet penetrating their body armor, the media incorrectly reported that the Teflon coated bullets were designed to defeat the body armor that law enforcement officers were beginning to use. The myth of "Cop-killer" bullets was born.

In January of 1982, NBC Television broadcast a sensationalist prime time special titled "Cop Killer Bullets." Law enforcement officials had asked NBC not to air the program as the use of body armor by police officers was still not common knowledge and the "KTW" ammunition was virtually unheard of outside law enforcement circles. The safety of law enforcement officers took a back seat to ratings at NBC however and they not only broadcast the show, but re-broadcast it again six months later.

Following significant media hype and widespread misconceptions, Congress got into the act and proposed legislation that would have outlawed any bullet based on its ability to penetrate certain bullet resistant material. The FBI, Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms, and other forensic experts cautioned that the proposed ban was too vague to be enforceable. The NRA opposed the proposed law since it would have banned not only the controversial armor piercing handgun rounds, but nearly all conventional rifle ammunition as well. (Most rifle ammunition will easily penetrate the most commonly worn protective vests.)

The NRA proposed alternative legislation based upon the actual design and construction of the bullets. The final, approved version of the bill (H.R. 3132 passed in 1986) prohibited the sale of armor piercing ammunition other than to law enforcement and the military. Representative Mario Biaggi (D-N.Y.) the original bill's sponsor, stated that the final legislation "... was not some watered down version of what we set out to do. In the end there was no compromise on the part of police safety..."
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvcopk.html

[jazzhound]

59. Yeah..........sure spin!!

Next thing your going to try to tell us is that there was never such a thing as a plastic pistol that was capable of passing through metal detectors at airport security stations.

And that "assault weapons" are semi-automatic (as opposed to automatic) rifles.........

And that blood won't run in the streets the next time a state passes shall-issue legislation.

:sarcasm:

[Kennah]

63. Who needs plastic ...

... when metal works just fine.

http://books.google.com/books?id=pFOSdZmSjnUC&lpg=PA141&ots=wS1dFRAvRP&dq=h%26k%20p9%20airport%20glock&pg=PA141#v=onepage&q&f=false

[jazzhound]

67. Thanks for that link, Kennah...........

............looks like quite an interesting read!

[Katya Mullethov]

70. I've run one

Double barrel black powder 45 caliber derringer, made of 100% nylon 66 with big rubber bands for springs , fired nylon projos and even had handmade nylon percussion caps .

The only reason he bothered was because someone told him it couldnt be done , and then had the poor judgement to bet him money .

[Callisto32]

73. Never tell someone it can't be done.

Powered flight
The jet engine
Escaping Earth's gravity
Proving that the Earth orbits the sun....

[oneshooter]

76. WAIT! That last one," Proving that the Earth orbits the sun...." is TRUE??? n/t

[east texas lib]

71. Murder Of Wildlife Conservation Officer Blamed On Lax Gun Laws...

The "blame" for Officer Grove's death rests squarely on the shoulders of the murderous repeat felon that killed him, as well as the plea-bargaining prosecutors and head in the clouds judges that released him again and again after multiple weapons violations. This guy's a genuine continuing threat to society and a poster boy for the needle or life without parole at the very least.

[Katya Mullethov]

75. "Guns in Parks lead to Moab shooting "

[east texas lib]

77. And the band played on...

Same old song, next verse.

[Katya Mullethov]

78. Protection of endangered rabbit species sets off chain of events

That lead to the French Revolution . Bear in mind that particular verse starts with the wardens getting tagged and ends with the refusal of foreign loans based on a widely held perception of insipid corruption and wasteful spending .

[Katya Mullethov]

79. But there's more

Magna Carta

(47) All forests that have been created in our reign shall at once be disafforested. River-banks that have been enclosed in our reign shall be treated similarly.

* (48) All evil customs relating to forests and warrens, foresters, warreners, sheriffs and their servants, or river-banks and their wardens, are at once to be investigated in every county by twelve sworn knights of the county, and within forty days of their enquiry the evil customs are to be abolished completely and irrevocably. But we, or our chief justice if we are not in England, are first to be informed.

////


This seems to have been a source of friction for quite some time .

[east texas lib]

81. I'm quite handy with double bit axes, saws, bows and the like...

I could'a been a contender.

[east texas lib]

80. The wardens require more robust cudgels and greater numbers, methinks...

Mayhaps they could fairly guard yon treasury as well.