Findlay man shot to death by 7 year old son

[HarveyBrooks]

Authorities Tuesday morning identified an Allen Township man who died after being shot accidentally by his 7-year-old son.

<snip>

Sergeant Blunk said the victim apparently was teaching his son how to shoot when the 22-caliber rifle discharged around 12:30 p.m. Monday. A single bullet struck the man in the head, he said.

http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100713/NEWS16/7130360

[tk2kewl]

1. all we need to do is provide the kids with training, or so they say...

:eyes:

poor kid

[SteveM]

71. No, kids need to be provided with good training, not in this manner...

Sorry, but ignorance of guns in a country with 330,000,000 firearms in civilians hands is asking for it. Otherwise, do you have a point?

[sharp_stick]

2. Way to teach a kid how to shoot

Darwin award winner for this asshole.

I hope the poor kid is OK in the future but you can bet his old mans idiocy fucked him up for life. IMO 7 is far too young to learn how to shoot.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

3. Gun training should begin with BLANKS, period. n/t

[Travis Coates]

46. Close but still a fail

firearms training should begin W/ an unloaded weapon

[HysteryDiagnosis]

63. I tried. My bad.... n/t

[TheWraith]

81. Or better yet, snap caps.

You can simulate loading a weapon without actually loading it.

Still, I would agree that 7 is far too young to learn how to shoot.

[zanana1]

4. Second Amendment "freedom" strikes again.

Loose gun laws= death. We're seeing it every day now and I'm sure it will just get worse.

[X_Digger]

21. 'worse', eh?

Violent crime overall is down, crime with guns is down, accidents with guns are down.

[Glassunion]

40. But it feeeeels worse. I need a warm and fuzzy. Ban gunz, ban gunz!!!!!

[Statistical]

64. What law short of a complete ban would have prevented this.

Things aren't getting worse. They have been getting better of last 2 decades despite more liberal gun laws.
The accidental gun death rate is about 1/3 of what it was 30 years ago despite more guns and so called "looser laws".

Then again I doubt silly things like facts will change your opinion.

[SteveM]

72. Wrong again: "Loose gun laws = death" No. Look at the data. nt

[Vinnie From Indy]

5. I find it astonishing that the boys father would hand a seven year old a

loaded weapon. What a tragedy for all involved. This scar on the whole extended family will last a lifetime.

[proteus_lives]

19. I handled loaded weapons when I was seven.

But the difference was my father knew how to teach firearms safety.

[GreenStormCloud]

39. I was taught to shoot at an early age.

However, my firt gun was a BB gun. Once that Dad saw I used it safely, I was given a real gun.

[SteveM]

73. I was given instruction -- with a .22 rifle -- when 7-yrs-of-age...

In how to point the barrel (not at anything you did not wish to shoot), load the magazine, work the bolt, use the safety, aim with a peep sight. A year later, we got some basic instruction in shooting a .32 revolver of some hoary, extinct manufacture. Shotguns came when we could hold a .12 gauge single-shot up.

There are, of course, some kids who should not be taught, given their behavior, attention span, etc. But that is the case for any age.

[napi21]

6. The first thing we always taught our boys was NEVER point a gun at anything

you don't intend to kill! That means people, animals or trees! I have no idea how this idiot was trying to teach, but it was obviously a piss poor way!

[HockeyMom]

9. That doesn't always work

When my daughter was growing up, there was a cop's 17 year old son who got his Dad's service pistol and played Russian Roulette with some of his friends. His girlfriend got the bullet and shot herself dead in the head. I am sure this cop taught his son all about gun safety. His son was not a little kid. What good did any of this do these kids?

Gun owners like to read all about 80 year olds defending themselves, but they don't, nor does the NRA publish stories, like the above. This was not something I read about. My daughter actually KNEW these kids.

When my kids were still living in the home with us, all my husband's guns and ammo were locked away and ONLY HE knew where the keys were; not just my kids, but even ME. I told him I didn't want to know, let alone let the kids, even as teenagers, know.

Edit to this: My husband's actual gun collection was in a metal cabinet with a combinsation lock which only HE knew. Our kids didn't know the combination. I didn't know the combination, bye my CHOICE. The ammo was in another locked box which had a key. Only my husband knew where the key to the ammo box was. He kept a handgun in the closet, but it was not kept loaded. The ammo box had to be unlocked to load the gun the in closet. That is probably why when it came down to it, I was able to throw out the window fan to the burglar before my husband was able to get his gun and load it.

More than anything, he was afraid that somebody would break into the house when we weren't home and STEAL HIS GUNS.

[slackmaster]

12. Teen suicides are often spun as "playing Russian roulette" in the media to ease a family's pain

Nobody in their right mind plays Russian roulette.

Either way, that is a very sad story.

[HockeyMom]

14. There were 5 kids in involved in this

As I said, we didn't READ this. We KNEW the kids. They lived a few streets away.

[Golden Raisin]

7. WHY on earth does a

second-grader have to know how to shoot a gun?

[napi21]

10. I can only tell you that the house my husband grew up in had dozens of

guns and the whoe family were hunters, and yes they ate what they shot. The kids were always taught at a very early age to respect guns abd the damage they could do. You also have to remember that kids tend to like the hobby that their parents like, especially if the parents are very involved in that hobby. It's much better to teach safety and teach it right than to have a child's curiosity caause him/her to investigate a dangerous object they no nothing about.

[HockeyMom]

18. Might work if BOTH parents agree

My husband and I don't agree. My daughters took MY point of view. Seeing "Bambi" bleeding in the fridge really turned them, and of course ME, against it.

I have a hard enough time eating meat I DON'T SEE being killed, let alone seeing it dead and bleeding, like seeing that dead, bleeding venison in my fridge. BTW, we donated it to a butcher. Nobody, except my husband, could stand the smell, sight, or eat it after.

[one-eyed fat man]

25. I love it

You see yourself as morally superior because you hire your killing done!!!!!




You want fries with that?

[HockeyMom]

27. I don't like MEAT at all

Even as a kid, I could easily have become a vegetarian simply because I don't like the TASTE of meat, never mind seeing it killed. My nickname as a kid was Bugs Bunny because I was always eating veggies. I had severe anemia. I would really have to work at it to become a vegetarian. Even today, I have to really disguse the TASTE of meat to eat it.

[HarveyBrooks]

29. I love it

You see yourself as morally superior because you *enjoy* doing the killing yourself!!!!!

[Callisto32]

37. He never said he enjoyed it.

As a matter of fact, he probably didn't.

I come from a culture where we kill, and eat, our own animals.

I HATE killing the animals. I could describe every death of an animal by my hand in detail, precisely because it was so unpleasant.

I have a greater respect for these animals, and their value, because of my close interaction with them. Far more so than people that think that meat comes from the store, I would suspect.

[one-eyed fat man]

54. No one said enjoy

It is a comment on those who are so insulated by their urban environment and upbringing they have no clue where their food comes from or how.

Especially those who, with great copious plates full of animal proteins, castigate those who have put their own food on the table. The ones who think removing the plastic wrap from the styrofoam is all there is to it while dismissing the farmers and rural people as rubes and hicks because they supplement what they grow with what they hunt!

Those who didn't learn from grandma the price of being unproductive. The hen that stopped laying was fricassee Sunday supper.

[Callisto32]

36. How the hell did you get a deer into your fridge?

By "Bambi bleeding" you mean, "bloody cuts of meat?"

Also, let me tell you something about Bambi. Bambi, is NOT the docile, cute animal he seems. A deer is a dangerous animal. They breed heavily, and will LITERALLY eat themselves out of house and home if the population is not controlled.

Can't stand the smell, sight, or taste of venison? That stuff is delicious, way more so than a cow.

I'm having a hard time believing this post.

[SteveM]

75. Or there is the case of Mary Zeiss Stange, Professor of Womens' Studies...

at Skidmore who, when she first married, turned down her husband's repeated request to go to the range with him. She finally told him: "I'm afraid I might like it."

She did. She has since written a number of books about hunting and shooting from a feminist prospective.

Everyone I gift with venison has like it, including the employees of a local vegetarian restaurant. I saw Bambi, based loosely on a book by Felix Salten, an Austrian literary critic. Not a bad novel, and fairly good on the biology of deer in Europe (he had his own hunting preserve outside of Vienna).

I always preferred Marjorie Kinnan Rawlings' The Yearling (Pulitzer, 1938) for a REAL understanding about the consequences of misplaced compassion and anthropomorphizing. If you see the uncut movie version (1946), you will see the teenager finishing off his pet deer near the end of the picture. It will make anyone wince, even now. You can't do that kind of thing in cinema, anymore. BTW, there was no scene of the deer beeing shot: it was the boy's reaction.

[proteus_lives]

20. I did when I was in the second grade.

Why not?

[HarveyBrooks]

30. So....

Would you advise teaching a 7 yr old how to drive a car?

[proteus_lives]

33. The skills aren't that comparable.

I did know by that age to buckle my seat-belt, lock the door, don't touch the gear-shift or brake, etc.

[X_Digger]

24. I was shooting by 7.

By 5 I knew not to touch a gun without adult supervision.

I was hunting with my great grandfather by 10.


(Forgive the image quality, this is a scan of a polaroid.)

[SteveM]

74. Guns can be an important part of your life, one way or another...

"We cannot but pity the boy who has never fired a gun. He is no more humane, while his education has been sadly neglected."
-- Thoreau

Not bad for an anti-war activist.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FLyellowdog]

11. The Second Amendment can't legislate stupidity.

It would be interesting if some psychologist would do a follow-up study on persons who accidently shoot and kill another person. Do the shooters continue to use guns or does the experience change their paradigm? This 7 year old will forever remember killing his dad...will he still have guns when he grows up? Just wondering.:shrug:

[slackmaster]

13. I have no doubt that boy's life will be affected permanently by this event

I found my own father dead when I was seven. It was an accident, and did not involve firearms. It took me a long time and some counseling to convince myself that his death was not my fault for not having checked up on him sooner, when I first had an inkling that there was something wrong.

Even now I'm not completely convinced that I could not have prevented his death. I've dealt with it by being very quick to respond to situations that I think may be dangerous. A couple of years ago I saw a gardener sleeping on a running lawn mower. He was engulfed in a cloud of blue smoke. I was concerned that he might get carbon monoxide poisoning, so I woke him up. He was annoyed and started cussing me out in Spanish, but I just smiled and walked away.

[FLyellowdog]

15. I'm sorry about the loss of your father when you were so young.

Please don't stop looking out for other people, though. It's better to be safe than sorry. I hope you continue to heal.:hug:

[slackmaster]

16. You are very kind. Thank you.

I decided a long time ago that I'd rather deal with people pissed off at me than with people who get injured or killed because I was afraid of pissing them off.

[SteveM]

76. A study may be of interest, but the data is getting sketchy...

Since the mid 1990s, childhood deaths by firearm (not adults, as in this case) have been going down precipitously, even as the number of firearms in civilian hands has gone up by over 100,000,000. Kids may very well never use a firearm again, but they would be fewer and fewer in number as the data indicates.

BTW, a child is much more likely to be killed in a fall, by drowning, by electrocution, than by firearm.

I suspect that adults killed by a kid using a firearm is a very small number, perhaps too small for a study.

[MisterBill45]

17. OMG someone died in an accident. there oughta be a LAW!

Ya know, I'm old enough to remember when it was always the right that were like this. They were constantly harping on about new laws, new restrictions on personal freedom and terribly concerned about everyone else doing what they thought was "acceptable."

Now it's almost the opposite.

It's a sad story. I feel for the kid. Guess what? There are 320 million some-odd people in this country. Forgive me if I don't get my panties in a twist every time there's a tragic accident. there is not law which wouldn't be a draconian infringement of individual rights and the rights of parents that would have prevented this.

And once again, look at the numbers. Firearms accidental deaths are so low on the list of likely cause of death it's not even worth discussing. They've been on a steady decline since the 1930s.

[proteus_lives]

22. Accidents don't justify the stripping of people's rights.

Accidents suck but they are part of life.

[one-eyed fat man]

23. I wonder

Did we have smarter kids back then or are we raising dumber parents now?

[rrneck]

31. My uncle used to tell me

about how he and my dad used to have to chase rabbits down with a stick and kill them to get together enough rabbit pelts to buy shotgun shells to go hunting.

[SteveM]

77. This practice of running down game is still practiced...

in the Lake Okeechobee region of Florida. Some recent recruits to the University of Florida's football team report they hunted this way. The practice is employed by Aborigines in Australia -- who run down birds! to the point of exhaustion. Feral cats are also chased down and stoned for bush meat.

[HockeyMom]

26. My Dad and Father-in-Law were both WW2 Combat Vets

and neither of them ever wanted anything whatsoever to with guns afterwords. My Dad would tell me stories of his combat. He didn't paint a very pretty picture of it. My father-in-law didn't talk to his wife, or his son, about his combat duty. He DID tell ME about it. I don't know why, other than he knew I was very much anti gun. My Dad made it out of the war uninjured. My father-in-law had a bullet in his brain that couldn't be removed. He lived with it until he died. Whever I was alone with him, he would tell me the horrors he experienced in war. I did not want to hear it, but he would continue anyway. I suppose it was his form of therapy. I know my mother-in-law said from the time he came back from the war, he had nightmares the rest of his life.

My husband, on the other hand, never saw combat in Nam. He was a jet engine mechanic. Maybe that is why he is so obsessed with guns. Perhaps, his DAD should have told HIS SON about war and guns, and not his daughter-in-law. I wonder if he had, would his son be so much pro gun.

[spin]

28. I've known combat vets that hate firearms and some that still enjoy the hobby ...

A WWII vet who was a combat engineer during the Normandy invasion and fought his way to the victory, in Germany became a champion trap shooter and loved shooting handguns, especially Colt .45 autos.

Combat effects people differently, but there is no doubt that the experience is life altering.

I fail to see how a combat vet explaining to me how horrible war is, would have any effect on my enjoyment of the shooting sports. I already have some concept of the reality of war, although I am fortunate enough to have never been in combat. I did serve in the Air Force during the Vietnam War but I was an airborne radio technician and I was stationed stateside during my entire enlistment.

I don't see combat as patriotic, exciting or in anyway an enterprise that I would ever want to be engaged in, unless absolutely essential for the survival of this country. Nor would I want my grandsons to be involved in combat unless truly necessary.

But shooting is a sport at I have enjoyed for years. I also have firearms in the home for self defense and a concealed carry permit. I hope to never have to use my firearms to legitimately injure or kill another person who attacks me in a manner that seriously threatens my health or my life. I realize that, like combat, shooting a person is a life altering experience that often is very negative.

[HockeyMom]

32. That is my point

You, and my husband, never had to see anyone die from a gun. My Vet Dad, Vet Father-in-law, and even myself as young child, have. When you see someone alive one minute, and lifeless the next, it really affects you. That is why in today's world there is counseling for Vets, victims of crimes, and children who have had violence touch their lives.

You carry around your gun and it gives off a confidence. However, it is not the gun, but the attitude. You project an aura that you are not going to be a victim. You don't need a gun to project that confidence. You don't intend to be a scared victim and the odds are you won't be; gun or no gun.

[proteus_lives]

35. You don't really have a point.

"You, and my husband, never had to see anyone die from a gun."

My father has. He seen people die from weapons fire and killed people in combat.

And he still loves guns. We go to the range 2-3 times a month.

You should stop using canards as the basis for your arguments.

[Callisto32]

38. I don't see it as a canard, as much as purely emotion driven.

Some people have difficulty seeing rationally when things are emotionally charged.

[proteus_lives]

58. Yep, she's not rational at all.

I guess that could explain the canards.

[Callisto32]

69. What I mean is..

when someone uses the word "canard" I think of something disingenuous. I think she really might just mean what she posts, because of a lack of rational thought on the matter.

[HockeyMom]

42. Don't say NEVER

I have FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE of my Dad, my Father-in-law, and MYSELF. MY first hand experience as a 6 year old child. Since you yourself, never experienced it, you have no right to criticize it.

[proteus_lives]

59. I'm not criticizing it. I'm criticizing the way you're using it.

I don't think you should you should use your experiences as reasons for stripping the rights of others.

[Euromutt]

82. It's still anecdotal evidence

And I hasten to point out that "anecdotal" does not necessarily mean "false"; it merely means "not shown to be representative." I've been a soldier, though I've never seen combat, but I worked for the UN war crimes tribunal for the former Yugoslavia for over three years, and I've dealt with material from the aftermath of violence: victim/witness statements, pathology reports, photos, et al. The experience didn't incline me to renounce violence, not least because that didn't stop harm being inflicted on any of the people in the materials I handled. Instead, it convinced me of the need to be able, when confronted with violence, to meet it it with violence, because unenlightened as it may sound, there really are people you can't convince of the error of their ways except by hitting harder than they do. A lot harder.

[MisterBill45]

41. This is head-scratching goofy.

If someone is looking for a victim they don't always make the choices you think they do. It's pretty much random most of the time. Having spent quite a long time covering a crime beat, I can vouch for that fact. Street criminals are bottom of the barrel stupid for the most part. And if THEY have a gun, then all the confidence in the world isn't going to make a difference. They have a gun and you don't. End Game.

As for the whole emotional argument thing, please spare me. I know a lot of combat vets and none of have any distaste for firearms. Your posts both ooze pacifism. Are you one?

[HockeyMom]

43. Take it up with my Dad and Father-in-law

Unfortunately, they are both now dead. They didn't give counseling to vets back then, which they now DO. Why in the world would they need to counsel vets at all then?

War is hell. At least our government now recognizes the fact.

You know, I really think you pro gun people hate the me's of the world. Child and wife of Vets who are pro gun control.

[spin]

51. I can't speak for all here ...

but I don't hate those who disagree with my views. In fact, I try to avoid all hatred as it is a poison that tends to ruin lives including the life of the person who hates.

[Statistical]

67. "You know, I really think you pro gun people hate the me's of the world."

Nope. Maybe that is some projection though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projection_%28psychology%29

I don't hate you or even dislike you; I simply think your are misguided. We need criminal control (and more importantly resolve the underlying societal issues) not gun control. Still I don't hate you for your views; I don't hate anyone for their views. I believe in a society where differing opinions can be debated. Just because I don't let you peddle the failed gun control meme without question has nothing to do with hate.

[SteveM]

79. No hate, here. I have seen a lot of it coming the other way, from some. nt

[Euromutt]

83. It's been remarked that the opposite of love isn't hate...

It's apathy.

You know, I really think you pro gun people hate the me's of the world.

No. To hate someone, you have to have some interest in, to care about that person. Why should I care about you enough to hate you just because you have some anecdotal evidence about a couple of people who don't like private ownership of firearms?

[HockeyMom]

45. Yes, they ARE stupid

and that is where YOUR smarts take over.

[Travis Coates]

47. I've worked several years in the ER

And I've seen far more people killed due to drunk driving than firearms. I still drive my car to the range

[MisterBill45]

48. I completely missed this part of the post the first time through.

"You, and my husband, never had to see anyone die from a gun. My Vet Dad, Vet Father-in-law, and even myself as young child, have"

Somehow I skipped past the first part of that. I have indeed seen not one or two, but several people screaming their death throes from GSWs. And yes, I mean screaming. I have no idea how many bodies I've seen, but lots. No one walks away from those experiences unchanged. But it never occurred to me to blame an inanimate object for man's inhumanity to man.

You see a dead guy and immediately see the gun, an object powerless to do anything to anyone unless a human decides to misuse it, as the problem. I see the same thing and I see the person who committed murder as the problem. I don't think I'm the one whose logic is off-base here.

You have an irrational fear of firearms. It's called hoplophobia.

[HockeyMom]

49. Perhaps these people would have used other means

but who can say those other means would have been as deadly.

[MisterBill45]

62. You do realize that a stabbing victim is vastly more likely to die than a shooting victim right?

[Statistical]

65. Overwhelming majority of gunshot victims survive.

That applies to both accidental deaths and criminal homicides.

For the record I saw more than enough death and destruction in Iraq to last 5 lifetimes; it still doesn't make me afraid of guns. If anything it has given me a first hand apreciation of how barbaric and violent mankind really is. Our orderly society is really just one major breakdown away from something resembling Mad Max.

War is the manifestation of the evil side of mankind. They had war long before firearms and it was much more brutal. In Roman era the wounded were simply executed where they lay on the battlefield. The fatality rate of the losing side was 100% (minus those who were able to flee). By the middle ages they had perfect that to include light cavalry to ensure less of the losing side was able to flee. Men who had thrown their weapons down and running in sheer panic were simply run under the sword by light cavalry. Routinely everyone was killed except for nobles and they were only saved because they had value (ransom, and the winning nobles wanted the same if/when they lost).

I don't doubt your father had a traumatic experience or that he disliked guns after that. I simply doubt that this applies to "most veterans".

[spin]

50. I try to project "an aura"

but it's merely one of being aware of my surroundings. It's called situational awareness. I make eye contract with people on the street and in parking lots. I show everyone respect but they know that I have observed them. Often this is enough to avoid an attack as the bad guy looks for easy prey like some fool with a cell phone glued to his ear.

The firearm I carry doesn't give me any confidence. The fact that I have it on me will in no way deter an attack, as it is concealed. It's merely a tool to use as a last resort in case I was foolish or unlucky enough to find myself in a situation where there is no other choice. If I have to use it, I realize that there will be legal and psychological effects. I will probably regret having to use my weapon for the rest of my life, even if its use is entirely justified.

I have also seen people die when I was young. While I never watched a person die from a gunshot, I have witnessed people die as a result of violent traffic accidents as well as people passing because of illness or age.

People differ. I prefer to carry a firearm or have one in my home for self defense as I have been shooting for over 40 years and I feel confident in my ability to make the right decision to use the weapon if necessary and have confidence in my skill to stop a serious attack.

You mentioned that you had a traumatic and possibly personally tragic incident involving firearms that occurred in your childhood. In my experience, many people who oppose firearms and their ownership have had such events effect their life. I can understand your emotional response, and if I had had a similar experience I might share your views.

But I've had a more positive experience with firearms. I enjoyed target shooting as a hobby and taught my young daughter how to shoot handguns at a target range. My wife at the time also enjoyed target shooting and we spent many hours on the range enjoying the sport.

One night my daughter was alerted by our burglar alarm and found an intruder forcing the sliding glass door in our kitchen open. When the intruder saw my daughter entering the kitchen, he told her that he intended to rape her. She had her favorite handgun, a S&W Model 25-2 45 acp target revolver in her hand at her side. She drew down on the intruder and when he found himself facing a young girl weighing less than 100 pounds confidently pointing a handgun as big as Dirty Harry's .44 magnum - he ran.

When the police arrived she had to tell them that she had a gun in her hand and couldn't let go of it. They told her to point the weapon at the floor with her finger off the trigger and open the door. One kind officer led her to the couch in the living room, sat her down and gently pried her fingers off the grip. A burst of adrenaline into your system often has strong aftereffects.

I doubt if you will follow my advice, but have you tried shooting with your husband? I know that this would be a very large step for someone with your views on firearms, but it could allow you to see that firearms are not always for killing but can also be used for sport. Today archery is a pleasant activity which most people don't associate with warfare. However the bow was one of the most important military weapons for centuries. Bows are still used for hunting and sometimes in combat.

[HockeyMom]

52. Been there, done that

Before marriage, and after. As I said, I was only doing it to please him and not me. It totally turned me off. Then, as I said on previous posts, I was born and raised in NYC and saw my fair share of crime. Defended myself, including once with my husband before he could get his gun and load it, with whatever weapon was near near at the time. Your BRAIN is probably the powerful weapon you can possess.

I do agree with the aspect of what we called street smarts; not going into certain areas, keeping alert and looking up, staying away from both the curb and buildings when dark and all alone, etc. That is just something to learn growing up in any big city.

No, having a gun toting, NRA husband of almost 40 years, hasn't changed my mind. I guess that goes against the grain also. You hear too much of 80 year old gun toting Seniors and husband and wives going to ranges, bla, bla, but you don't, or want, to hear the OTHER side of the story.

It exists. Why don't people want to hear about it?

[spin]

56. Obviously, I'm listening to your views ...

and while our opinions differ, I understand where you are coming from.

I agree with your statement, "Your BRAIN is probably the powerful weapon you can possess." The firearm I carry is the last resort after all else has failed. In almost all cases you can get out of a bad situation without resorting to violence by using your smarts, but there are those few times when the attacker has the intention of severely hurting you or killing you and often is armed.

At least you tried shooting and I give you full credit for that. Not everyone enjoys shooting. We all are different, which makes the world far more interesting than if we were all the same.

[one-eyed fat man]

70. The best advice

"............husband of almost 40 years"

I think Winston Churchill's reply to Lady Astor.

[one-eyed fat man]

53. My office in Viet Nam

I did two tours as a tank commander and as a tank platoon sergeant. I retired from the Army in 1988 and was recalled to active duty in 1991 for Desert Storm.

Pious lectures on ground combat from someone who has never been there amuse me.

Call it "applied foreign policy", I did my job and I was good at it.

[Travis Coates]

55. Hey at least you had the office W/ a view NT

[one-eyed fat man]

80. The best thing about the "view"

M377 canister. The 90mm tank gun on the M48 was the last MBT to use flechettes like these. A few thousand of these through the jungle were very effective. Using tanks in jungle, heavy woods or in built up areas where you negate their range advantage, canister is most useful as the engagement ranges are within 400 meters. Imagine launching 25 pounds of hardened finishing nails with fins into exposed infantry formations at point blank range.

While many in the Armor community long lobbied for an effective canister round for the M1 tank, a round for the M256 gun was a relatively recent development. We didn't have it in 1991 in the western desert and there were a few instances when it would have proven useful. It is very effective in the urban setting as vehicles, buildings and masonry walls that an infantryman uses as cover against small arms fire are easily defeated.



http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/m377.htm

[proteus_lives]

60. If your tank was your office....

My father in the infantry was a "traveling salesman".

[one-eyed fat man]

61. I often wondered

if the NVA infantrymen who fired an RPGs at me and missed had any clue how bad their day was going to get.....

[proteus_lives]

34. Your canard falls apart.

"My husband, on the other hand, never saw combat in Nam. He was a jet engine mechanic. Maybe that is why he is so obsessed with guns"

My father is a combat veteran of Vietnam and he taught me everything I know about shooting and maintains a wonderful firearms collection.

My friend Roger is a combat vet of Iraq and an avid hunter.

My friend Ben is a combat vet of Iraq and I go to the range with him often.

Your canard is flawed at it's core.

[HockeyMom]

44. No,it isn't

In the early years of my marriage I WENT WITH HIM. It was a LIE. I decided more than 30 years ago that this was all BS, to put it bluntly.

Actually, going to those stupid ranges, knowing kids who were killed, defending MYSELF without my husband's gun help, etc., etc., proved that to me.


The fewer guns in the world, the BETTER.

[proteus_lives]

57. "The fewer guns in the world, the BETTER."

You do realize that guns don't use themselves right?

I say the fewer people trying to control others around them, the better.

I say the fewer people exposed and unarmed to criminals, the better.

I say the few accidents because people pay more attention to safety, the better.


You keep chasing an illusion of safety.

And you should try understanding rather then judging. You emotion-fueled and logic-free way of thinking is leading you right into authoritarianism.

[Statistical]

66. Let me correct this for you: "The fewer guns in the hands of CRIMINAL, the better"

As UK shows disarming the general population does no good.
The problem is that most gun control does simply that.
It disarms the general population and leaves the violent felons with weapons.

[AtheistCrusader]

68. Opposite experience.

Dad didn't tell much about his experience in Vietnam, but being in the brown water navy, he was shot at plenty, and shot back. Still taught my brother and I to shoot straight and hit what we aimed at.

[SteveM]

78. Works both ways, combat experience...

Major firearms manufacturers report that after each war, civilian models of standard infantry rifles were made because of the huge depend for these classes of weapons for hunting and the shooting sports. Examples: bolt-action Krags and Springfield rifles (used in the Spanish American War, WWI, and WW II) caused more people (mostly vets) to take up refined civilian models -- with far better scope mounting provision than the military counterparts -- for hunting, instead of relying almost exclusively on the older lever-action models made famous in Western movies. WW II spurred the use of semi-auto rifles for hunting because the Army was equipped with Garand semi-auto rifles, and soldiers were familiar with them.

Now, many people wish to have the semi-auto versions of true assault rifles (full-auto carbines used by most of the world's militarys) because they are short, light, of adequate accuracy, ergonomically superior to the walnut & blue steel rifles of my generation, and are now chambered for calibers appropriate for deer hunting. Over 16,000,000 civilians now own AK "clones," AR 15s, and similar so-called "assault weapons" for sport shooting and hunting; in fact, there are several million MORE people who own this type of weapon than who hunt (12-13,000,000).