Update: Microstamping fails in NY senate ...

[spin]

Gun Control Bill Fails in NY Senate, Despite Backing From Mayors and Police
Ryan Morden (2010-06-16)

OSWEGO, NY (wrvo) - Gun control supporters in the state Senate failed to pass a new "microstamping" proposal that would apply to semiautomatic guns manufactured or sold in New York State.

This comes despite a lobbying effort from several Central New York mayors and police chiefs who rallied in Albany Tuesday in support of the measure.

According to the bill, all semiautomatic handguns would have to be able to stamp the gun's serial number on the casing of each bullet that's fired.

Law enforcement officials say bullet casings are often the only evidence left at the scene of a shooting. If the casing can be traced back to the gun's registered owner, they believe more crimes could be solved.

Democrats in the state Senate pulled the measure late Tuesday afternoon when it became clear there weren't enough votes to approve the bill.

"All of our cities are being plagued by violence. We think this is one tool that will help police officers solve crime," said Stephanie Miner, mayor of Syracuse.

The National Rifle Association opposes the measure, calling the bill an indirect ban on semi automatic guns in New York State.

"Manufacturers simply may not choose to build or sell firearms in the state," said Vickie Cieplak, media liaison with the NRA.

Cieplak calls the technology ineffective, and says it's just another step to make firearm ownership more difficult.

For Mayor Miner, the bottom line is making the streets safer.

"This is one tool that will help public safety. If I have to go up against the gun lobby every day, then I'll go up against the gun lobby every day," said Miner.

She wouldn't be alone; more 100 mayors from across New York state, including Utica mayor David R. Roefaro and New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg support what lawmakers call the "Crime Gun Identification Act of 2010."

The bill passed the state Assembly.
http://www.publicbroadcasting.net/wrvo/news.newsmain/article/1/0/1663606/More.News.From.WRVO/Gun.Control.Bill.Fails.in.NY.Senate..Despite.Backing.From.Mayors.and.Police

New York State Rifle & Pistol Association Applauds Tabling of Microstamping Bill

TROY, NY (06/16/2010)(readMedia)-- The State Senate's refusal to act upon a useless and purely politically correct bill on Tuesday was a victory for all New Yorkers. Bill S-6005A would have prevented honest citizens from exercising their right to own handguns for self-defense. The Senators who spoke in favor of passage demonstrated their complete lack of common sense and utter contempt for our civil rights. Even more disgraceful was Mayor Michael Bloomberg's shameless attempts to buy passage of this legislation with the implied promise of providing financial support to the re-election campaigns of Senators who support the bill.

The New York State Rifle & Pistol Association thanks Senator Dean Skelos and his conference for doing the right thing and not supporting this bill, along with Senators William Stachowski, Darrel Aubertine and David Valesky for putting principle above party politics and voting against S-6005A.
http://readme.readmedia.com/New-York-State-Rifle-Pistol-Association-Applauds-Tabling-of-Microstamping-Bill/1432657

[Deep13]

1. Is that even possible?

Presumably, the 6-10 digit serial number would have to be stamped by the firing pin onto the primer.

[brendan120678]

2. That's how it would be done, yes...

While the technology is available, it hasn't been implemented by any of the major manufacturers.
Additionally, the technology is patented by one company, so in order to implement it manufacturers would have to pay royalties to this one company.

Additionally, imagine the pass-down costs to the consumer if the manufacturers had to go through the redesign and development of all their products. Of course, that was the goal of this legislation - to make it more difficult for the average consumer to (legally) purchase a firearm.

California has a micro-stamping law that was to go into effect January of this year, but it is currently on hold because they still don't know how they will get by all the issues that remain.

[X_Digger]

4. Not to mention ineffective.

Fingernail file and then a polish with a fine cloth. Gone.

Never mind just getting a new firing pin.

No, what this measure was supposed to do was cost gun companies money- patent royalties to the private business and buy new equipment to do the stamping- cost that the mfg would pass along to the consumer, making guns more expensive.

[Callisto32]

16. OR, manufacturers could just refuse to sell in NY.

ESPECIALLY to state agencies.

I'm sure the people that want to take other people's arms away would get edgy if they couldn't get their own.

[spin]

3. Yes, it can be done ...

The Technology

The technology was developed in the 1990s by Todd Lizotte and Orest Ohar for the computer technology industry and has the intent to "Provide Make, Model, and Tracking Number At The Crime Scene". It is currently patented by Mr. Lizotte and owned by ID Dynamics.<1> Due to the high pressures present in the chamber of a firearm during firing (see internal ballistics), the cartridge case is effectively forged into the chamber, and picks up any markings, large or small, present in the chamber. This fact has long been used in the field of forensic ballistics, where marks from tooling that remain in the chamber or on the bolt face are often used to associate a cartridge case with the firearm that fired it. This method is generally called ballistic fingerprinting. Firearm microstamping technology additionally engraves the make, model, and serial number on the cartridge, and serves to identify a firearm uniquely. The identifying marks are engraved on the face of the firing pin which stamps the primer as the firing pin impacts the primer to ignite it, and as the chamber pressure pushes the cartridge against the breech face, onto the head of the cartridge as well. By marking both the replaceable primer and the reusable case, each time a case is reloaded, a new primer supplies a fresh writing surface upon which to accept the identifying engraving, although for factory-fresh cartridges, the same information will be available in legible form on both the primer and on the head of the cartridge case. Imprinting both the primer and the head of the cartridge increases the tamper-proofing, relative to just imprinting the primer, as the firing pin can easily be reworked or replaced if only it does the marking of the spent cartridge.

***snip***

Controversy

n general, groups that support gun control legislation generally favor requiring ballistic imprinting on all new firearms, while groups supportive of gun rights and the Second Amendment generally oppose any legal requirement for ballistic imprinting technology. Since the technology is unproven with large scale implementation, there are no reliable statistics to substantiate how useful the process might really be to law enforcement or that it would in any way hurt these same efforts.

Claims made by proponents of the technology include:

* Microstamping enables law enforcement to match fired cartridge cases from a crime scene to at least the last registered owner of the firearm.
* Microstamping would allow law enforcement to track illegal trade in guns.
* Low cost of implementation; the technology owner claims as low as US$0.50 per firearm or as high as US $8.50, depending on the volume of the manufacturer.
* High reliability; the "nearly as hard as a diamond" firing pin provides long service life.

Claims made by the opponents of the technology include:

* Stamped casing can only be traced to the last registered owner, not to the person who used the gun when the casings were stamped. In the case of a stolen gun, as is the case for most firearms used in crime, the stamped case would not lead to the criminal.
* Unscrupulous individuals could collect discarded brass from a firing range and salt crime scenes with microstamped cases, thereby providing false evidence against innocent people and increasing the workload for investigators.<3>
* High costs for testing the efficacy of the technique must be passed on to customers, increasing the cost of firearms for those who obtain them legally.<3>
* Microstamping is easily defeated. Diamond coated files are inexpensive and will remove microstamping. Firing pins are normally replaceable and can be changed with simple tools or without tools. Firing a large number of rounds will wear down the microstamp.<3> Marked components such as slides, barrels, firing pins and ejectors are all easily and commonly replaced items.<4>
* Microstamping is an immature, sole source technology, and has not been subjected to sufficient independent testing. Transfer of microstamped marks to the cases is less reliable than proponents claim.<3>
* Microstamping would be irrelevant/non-applicable for implementation of revolvers as these types of weapons do not eject shell cases necessarily.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_microstamping

[Remmah2]

9. Reading the bill.

The micro stamp is to be placed on "two" places on the spent shell and in the last paragraph is's only supposed to cost $12 per firearm. (No such technology is out there yet that can do that.) If enacted I suspect it would cause the supply of LEGAL semi-autos to go nill which I suspect is the actual intent of the bill.

I love the part about the cost being only $12 per firearm. I've never seen a government program that ever-ever cost what it was supposed to.

[Taitertots]

23. I'm interested in how they determined that non-existent technology would only cost $12

Considering there are no companies that have the current ability to manufacture this, it is for all intensive purposes non-existent.

[DissedByBush]

19. I believe there is a patent for that

The owner has been trying to get someone to mandate his technology.

He's been pushing legislatures in many states.

It won't be the first time someone got rich that way.

[davidinalameda]

5. so the shooter picks up the casings

if he can

no evidence

and uses a stolen gun if he can

I watch way too much CSI

[X_Digger]

6. Or really mess with them..

.. and pick up brass from the local firing range that cops use. ;)

[davidinalameda]

10. you should write for CSI

LOL

great idea

[Euromutt]

12. That would work if the police weren't exempt from the legal requirement

Which they almost certainly would be. They always are, for some reason the proponents of the legislation never seem to be able to adequately explain.

[jazzhound]

18. .........and then when you leave that brass behind at the

crime scene you could add insult to injury by painting these -- :) -- on the casings!

[spin]

7. Or simply use a revolver which doesn't eject brass ...

A .357 magnum revolver will kill you just as fast as a 9mm or .40 cal pistol.

The top 10 guns used in crimes in the U.S. in 2000, according to an unpublished study by U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms and obtained exclusively by TIME:

1. Smith and Wesson .38 revolver
2. Ruger 9 mm semiautomatic
3. Lorcin Engineering .380 semiautomatic
4. Raven Arms .25 semiautomatic
5. Mossberg 12 gauge shotgun
6. Smith and Wesson 9mm semiautomatic
7. Smith and Wesson .357 revolver
8. Bryco Arms 9mm semiautomatic
9. Bryco Arms .380 semiautomatic
10. Davis Industries .380 semiautomatic

emphasis added

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,320383,00.html#ixzz0r2U4Bt7j

Of course a criminal could always use a handgun without the microstamping feature. They are not all that rare.

In 2004, 36.5% of Americans reported having a gun in their home and in 1997, 40% of Americans reported having a gun in their homes. At this time there were approximately 44 million gun owners in the United States. This means that 25 percent of all adults, and 40 percent of American households, owned at least one firearm. These owners possessed 192 million firearms, of which 65 million were handguns. emphasis added
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence_in_the_United_States

Or he might simply buy a file and remove the microstanping technology. No big deal.

[GreenStormCloud]

8. Finding expended casings at a crime scene proves nothing. N/T

[spin]

11. But it might waste a lot of time ...

while the authorities track the cases to someone's firearm and find that he was a regular shooter at some range and another individual picked up the brass he left behind and spread it at the crime scene.

I used to reload my own ammo and I would make an effort to recover all my brass. Shell cases from a semi-auto pistol fly everywhere. Some ends up beyond the firing line where most ranges will not allow you recover it. Most ends up behind the firing line but with a number of shooters on the line is difficult to find among all the brass. I was lucky to recover 45 out of 50 cases. Many shooters who don't reload don't bother to pick up their brass.

The microstamping idea is just another "feel good" law which will increase the cost of firearms and accomplish absolutely nothing. The idea appeals to those who have little or no understanding of firearms but want to see firearm violence decrease.

[Euromutt]

13. Under separation of powers, support from the executive should be viewed with healthy skepticism

(Advance warning: political science major rant ahead) In a representative democracy, under rule of law, with a doctrine of separation of powers, part of the doctrine is that the executive branch of government, whose job it is to implement that laws, doesn't get to decide what the laws, or the limits of their powers, are.

I can present an argument letting law enforcement dictate what the laws and rules of operations should be in three words: Sheriff Joe Arpaio.

Any questions?

[GreenStormCloud]

22. Minor correction. I think you meant:

I can present an argument against letting law enforcement dictate what the laws and rules of operations should be in three words: Sheriff Joe Arpaio.

Normally I am not a grammar Nazi, and usually your grammar is excellent, but in this case I think the difference is important.

[aikoaiko]

14. HAHA

[Euromutt]

15. And another Senate does its job

Isn't there some apocryphal story of Washington and Jefferson discussing the need for a Senate? IIRC, Jefferson says he doesn't seen the need for a second chamber of the legislature, and Washington draws and analogy with Jefferson's habit of pouring tea into his saucer to cool it enough that he can drink it, namely that the role of the Senate is to cool down legislation passed by the House.

Even though the story is almost certainly a fabrication (since it didn't appear until 1871, and Jefferson was known to favor a bicameral legislature), it does illustrate a point. In this case, the New York state Senate voted down ill though-out legislation that the Assembly passed.

[spin]

17. Those were interesting times ....

I just started reading a novel based on the Constitutional Convention, Tempest at Dawn by James D. Best.

[proteus_lives]

20. Great news!

:thumbsup:

[spin]

21. ANOTHER UPDATE ...Bill to be reintroduced ...

Eric Schneiderman To Reboot Push For Microstamping
une 17, 2010 4:31 PM No Comments


Manhattan State Sen. (and state AG hopeful) Eric Schneiderman, who saw his hopes for the passage of a bill that would require the gun industry to institute microstamping crumble this week, says he's launching a grassroots campaign to get the issue back on the table:

"Microstamping ensures that when a gun is fired, information identifying the make, model and serial number of the gun is stamped onto the shell casing. This technology allows law enforcement officials to trace firearms through shell casings found at crime scenes, even if the crime gun is never found," said Schneiderman, one of the sponsors of the bill -- which is strongly backed by Mayor Bloomberg.

"Republicans can run, but they can't hide. Starting today, advocates are taking this fight to their districts - leafleting and holding press events in the coming days to urge them to stop blocking this commonsense legislation. It's time to put politics aside and put public safety first. It's time to pass microstamping in New York State."

The gun lobby opposes microstamping, saying it's tantamount to a ban on semiautomatic pistols because the manufacturing costs are prohibitive.

Bloomberg had plenty to say on this to reporters today when asked if he still considers Brooklyn GOP state Sen. (and former cop) Marty Golden, who opposed the legislation, an ally:

“Yeah, I, number one you look at people’s voting record on lots of different things. You’re never going to agree with anybody on everything. I was very disappointed that bill didn’t pass. My hope is that it comes up again next week and that the outcome is different, and I would urge, not just Marty Golden, but everybody, the only reason to vote against microstamping is to protect people who want to buy a gun to kill somebody. If you go an shoot a deer and somebody finds the casing and it doesn’t have a marking on it, so what? But the only reason you would want to keep the marking on the casing away, or not have it, is if you want to do something illegal. And with guns the only thing illegal you do is kill. This is an outrage. Our police officers are putting their lives on the line, at jeopardy, our children are getting killed, and yet some people are voting against microstamping! Spare me, this is just an outrage.”

http://www.nydailynews.com/blogs/dailypolitics/2010/06/eric-schneiderman-to-reboot-pu.html#ixzz0rE0KD2bG

No the reasons that honest gun owners oppose microstamping are:

(1) It will increase the price of firearms.

(2) Manufacturers may decide to not sell semi-auto firearms in New York and not have to deal with the hassle of microstamping.

(3) Numerous semi-auto firearms without microstanping exist in New York. Why would a criminal use a firearm with this technology?

(4) The criminal could pick up his brass at the crime scene or just use a revolver which doesn't eject brass for the police to find.

(5) The criminal could pick up another individual's brass at a shooting range and scatter it at the crime scene to lead the authorities on a wild goose chase.

(6) Microstamping is easy to defeat with a file or by replacing a firing pin.


The bottom line is that Bloomberg and his supporters hope to pass microstamping because it would be a backdoor gun ban on semi-auto handguns.

The Brady Campaign would be overjoyed but the law would accomplish little or nothing.

[Remmah2]

30. I wonder if Bloomberg donates to the supporters of the bill?

Bloomberg has been pretty vocal on this bill. It smells like Chicago politics.

[Endangered Specie]

24. Firing pin stamping... any criminal with a brain can figure out how to bypass that

I would like to see the major gun companies do what Barrett did when California banned .50 cals... namely stop selling to every governmental organization in the state

[PavePusher]

25. Winner! I like this... n/t

[DissedByBush]

26. Going to have to outlaw these

That and a couple of minutes is all you need to remove microstamping.

[virginia mountainman]

27. Don't forget the "bastard" loophole..

SOME OF THESE CAN BE HAD FOR .99 Cents!!!! And they DON"T have serial numbers! And ANYONE Can buy these at ANY hardware store and most other department stores as well.....

It will be enough to make Caroline "things that go up" McCarthy have a stroke.

[GreenStormCloud]

28. Diamond Dust Fingernail File

[X_Digger]

29. And as a bonus..

.. reshaping your firing pin to have a slightly more agressive profile may help shooting a wider variety of ammo. Gotta be careful you don't get it so sharp you puncture primers, but I had one old garand that only loved winchester white box until I reprofiled the pin.

[gravity556]

31. And another vote for the discontinuance of sales

to states that enact these idiotic microstamping bills. It would make the firing pin a controlled item (like a reciever is now), and would still be incredibly easy to bypass. Need a new pin for your gun so you don't get pinched gunning down rival gangbangers? Have a buddy buy one in a neighboring state that doesn't require microstamping. Same thing with fired cases and ballistic exemplar slugs-a new barrel runs about a hundred bucks, and a new slide can be had for quite a number of guns for a couple hundred more. New barrel, extractor and FP and all of the "anti crime" measures have been bypassed.

So they enact harsher penalties-so what? Bad guys do this thing-it's kind of their trademark-where they ignore the law. And prisons are crammed full of folks doing time for having a bag of weed or other recreational substance, meaning less room for folks who ignore the laws that are malum in se. So who gets restricted by bullshit laws like microstamping and the banning of bayonette lugs (though the rash of driveby bayonettings is absolutely mortifying)? Law abiding (the exact opposite of criminal) gun owners.