Police instructor shoots self during gun demo

[noamnety]

"A police academy instructor accidentally shot himself Friday night, April 9, during a gun demonstration in front of police recruits.

Robert J. Stewart, 55, was demonstrating the use of a 9mm Smith & Wesson semiautomatic pistol at about 7:51 p.m. at the firing range when he shot himself in the upper right thigh in front of 24 recruits and several instructors at Butler Tech’s Public Safety Education Center, said Butler County Sheriff’s Sgt. Chuck Laymon. ..."

http://www.middletownjournal.com/news/crime/police-instructor-shoots-self-during-gun-demo-645223.html

[Pavulon]

1. Retention holsters are a grand way to shoot yourself

even good ones have your index finger putting pressure on a lever (serpa) to release a firearm. That or he just spaced and shot himself. At least he lived, and will probably never do that again.

Violating coopers 4 rules predicates fuckups like this one.

[saigon68]

2. LOL

Some expert

[benEzra]

3. Well, the really good retention holsters generally don't.

That aspect seems to be the single biggest criticism of the Serpa holster, relative to other styles of retention holsters.

[tburnsten]

4. Doesn't DeSantis make one with a lever just below the trigger guard?

I think you would use your middle finger to depress it, which is a different trade-off, you have to mildly shift your grip whil drawing, but it doesn't seem that bad.


Another issue I have with the Serpa holsters is that they are tremendous. Wouldn't be an issue for uniformed carry, but I could never imagine trying to carry a pistol with one of those on my own time.

[Pavulon]

5. I only use them on a boat or bike

when I need a positive retention. They are not easy to conceal. They are comfortable for open carry.

[PavePusher]

8. Uh? What does that have to do with an N/D?

I have a Serpa for my 1911. As you draw, your finger naturally comes in contact along the frame above the trigger area. It takes a concious effort to put your finger on the trigger.

[Euromutt]

14. My thoughts exactly

I have Serpa CQCs for my S&W M&P40 and my 1911. To push down on the release lever, your index finger has to be in the "indexed" position, pointing along the frame above the trigger guard, and as you draw the weapon clear, it should stay there.

So I'm certainly curious how you'd achieve an ND with a Serpa any more than with any other holster.

ETA: I see RamboLiberal addressed that question in post #10. Since I bought my Serpa directly from Blackhawk well after they issued that recall, I'm not particularly concerned.

[Abq_Sarah]

30. I have a Serpa

For my Glock 17. It's one of the safest holsters I've ever used when it comes to finger position after drawing.

[aikoaiko]

17. Can you fill me in on the problem with the Serpa?

I hadn't heard there was a problem. Are people pushing on the lever, lifting the handgun out, and the index finger slips into the trigger guard pulling the trigger?

[Pavulon]

19. Its a training issue. Not a product issue. Generally.

I do not not think the product is defective. I do NOT have direct knowledge of this incident.

[Euromutt]

22. See RamboLiberal's post #10 below

Apparently, three years ago there was a problem with the Serpa for the Glock 20/21 and S&W M&P in that, if you held the weapon at an angle to the holster while reholstering, a corner of the holster could catch the trigger, thereby causing the weapon to discharge.

I have a S&W M&P and use a Serpa made since the recall, and I can tell you that I been unable to replicate this problem.

[HALO141]

28. If used correctly...

The lever on the Serpa holster positions your finger in the index position, along the frame of the firearm. - Right where it should be. If I had to guess (the article doesn't say exactly what he was doing at that moment), I'd say it's more likely that he had his finger inside the trigger guard as he reholstered the weapon.

[mistertrickster]

6. Hey, guns don't shoot people. People shoot themselves. or something. nt

[mistertrickster]

7. Hey, kids. You know all those cop shows where a law man sticks an automatic into his belt?

That's a great way to practice permanent birth control.

[Euromutt]

23. There's a reason responsible gun owners don't get their gun handling tips from TV

And that is one of them.

That said, it depends greatly on the firearm. It's a risk with any design that only requires the trigger to be pulled to discharge, because it only requires something to get inside the trigger guard and snag the trigger to cause an ND. It should not be an issue with any handgun that has one or more manual safeties.

[spin]

9. K&R (n/t)

[RamboLiberal]

10. I hope he didn't have a Serpa holster that was on recall list

from a couple of years ago.

It has been determined that employing certain movements when attempting to place the Smith and Wesson M&P Pistol (in any caliber or configuration) into these "High Wall" holsters can cause the handgun to engage that "High Wall" and unexpectedly discharge if there is a round in the chamber and the trigger is in what Smith & Wesson calls "the striker fire action mode". A discharge or "firing" of the weapon in this manner could cause property damage or personal injury or death to the user and/or others.

http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77814

Things can happen with holsters that can cause an AD as well though of course the usual cause is finger inadvertently in trigger.

[Katya Mullethov]

11. He could have been using

One of those governmentally mandated cluster fuck holsters

[proteus_lives]

12. Some teachers suck.

Fact of life.

[paulsby]

13. well, those who can;'t... teach

wait a second, i *am* a firearms instructor.

never mind. :)

[shadowrider]

15. There was an incident several years ago in Georgia

In which a firearms instructor was having a class. He had been in law enforcement for 20+ years previously. As he was showing the class how to clear a weapon, he had a brain fart and racked the slide FIRST to clear the chamber THEN removed the magazine. As he pulled the trigger to show the weapon was empty, the gun discharged and killed at 21 year old girl. He then had a heart attack. He lived, but never taught again.

Just goes to show, no matter how long you teach, own or handle weapons, one, just one forgetful moment can have tragic consequences.

[RamboLiberal]

18. I remember the story but according to news happened a bit different

The sheriff's administrative report on the shooting was released nearly six months after the shooting. It said that Jackson fired a single round during a drill in which recruits faced each other, drew their weapons, pulled the trigger, ejected the magazine, reloaded and pulled the trigger a second time, according to the sheriff's report.

Jackson took the place of the recruit facing Drummond to demonstrate the procedure, the report states. Jackson's semiautomatic pistol fired a live round when reloaded with the second magazine, striking Drummond in the chest, investigators reported.

http://www.policeone.com/training/articles/126568-Response-by-Ga-sheriff-angers-family-of-killed-recruit/

Interesting reading the investigation. http://www.degrata.com/pdf/Cobb_Co_shooting_investigation.pdf

This was a stupid, stupid, stupid drill done by this instructor and IMHO he should've been fired as the family of recruit officer Tara Drummond wanted him to be. Stupid waste of a wonderful young woman's life.

Don't know why they hell at least he was using a real firearm and not a red gun.

[Pavulon]

21. That makes me sick. There is no reason for that drill

to be done with a functional weapon. Failure to follow coopers rules and fucking common sense. ugggh.

[Euromutt]

24. You can't change mags on a red gun (or a blue gun)

Which is exactly why Blade-Tech developed the yellow plastic training barrel: http://blade-tech.com/Training-Barrel-pr-1018.html

But even given that you need to use an actual firearm to practice magazine changes and clearing drills, it is the height of stupidity to have students point real, functional firearms at each other. A drill like that screams for the use of a secure backstop. What earthly reason was there to have the students doing that facing and pulling triggers on each other?

[RamboLiberal]

29. On the red gun - bad editing by me

Added the findings after my original post.

[aikoaiko]

16. Not professional enough......

What ever happened to that DEA agent's suit?

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0411061foot1.html

[Pavulon]

20. To correct my post on retention and serpa

I have ZERO knowledge of this and the remark was offhand. I use serpa stuff when I need to retain a firearm (boat) and have never had any problem.

[Euromutt]

25. Well, as it turns out, you had a point

The firearm involved in the OP incident was S&W M&P, and as it turned out, there was an issue with Serpas made for the M&P two years ago, in which reholstering could result in an ND.

So, you know, don't feel bad or anything. Even if it was inadvertently, you touched on a genuine safety concern.

[jeepnstein]

26. His first words afterwards were...

"Don't ever do it like that, it hurts."

I had an instructor in the academy knock himself out cold during an unarmed self defense class. When he came to that's what he said. Then he mumbled something about "Picking the wrong week to stop smoking.." and then proceeded to take it out on all of us.

[Flyboy_451]

27. Training accidents in the classroom

Are EASILY avoided. Rule #1. No live ammunition is allowed in the classroom environment! PERIOD! NO EXCEPTIONS! NO EXCUSES! The only place for live ammo is on the range or when the weapon is in real life use. Blue guns, dummy rounds, and practice magazines are available for a reason. When using real firearms for drills such as clearing malfunctions, utilize tools available to make the firearms inert.

In almost twenty years of firearms instruction, including CQB in the military, five years of S.W.A.T. and fourteen years total as a police officer, I have held to this rule rigidly, and never even had a scary incident, let alone a negligent discharge, resulting in injury. Live ammo is for live fire drills ONLY!

While law enforcement training is constantly progressing, the single biggest failure of departments, that i see,is the failure to seek out true experts for instructor roles. Often some of the best firearms instructors are not law enforcement, but come from the ranks of competitive shooters. It would be wise for departments to look outside of their narrow ranks and utilize the expertise available in the shooting community.

JW