One of the rifles is an AR15 with a scope

[MichaelHarris]

"FRESNO, Calif.—Authorities have officially identified the man believed to have killed one law enforcement officer and wounded two others in a gun fight at his mobile home in the Fresno County village of Minkler Thursday....The 51-year-old Liles was described by authorities as a reclusive private security guard who once kept a collection of guns and recently clashed with his neighbors." http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_14479243?nclick_check=1

"Investigators found ten firearms inside the trailer; six handguns and four rifles. Two of the rifles were believed to be used in the shootout. One of the rifles is an AR15 with a scope, containing a 30-round magazine and there were six magazines in the trailer; three loaded and three empty. The other rifle investigators believe was used by Liles is a high-powered 243 caliber rifle with a scope."

http://www.cbs47.tv/news/local/story/Minkler-Shooting-Suspect-Identified-as-Rick-Liles/tfQ8O5x7eEm_ki677vdptg.cspx

[Pavulon]

1. Wow, in other news

my grocery store sells coke products.. Shame about the officers. You know that 243 is only chambered in a bolt action right??

[bossy22]

2. not true

they make a .243 AR upper based on an AR-10 lower....its very rare but i sold one once

[Pavulon]

3. Odd. Learn something new everyday..

I would bet in this case the criminal used a scoped bolt action rifle.

[MichaelHarris]

5. me too

especially with the AR15 and empty 30 round clips laying around. HAhahahahahahaha man that was stupid.

[Pavulon]

6. So he fired 90 rounds of 556. I just dont care about his load out.

and one of 243 from a bolt gun. The bolt gun is the weapon of choice for killing people at distance. Both military and police use bolt guns for that purpose.

Now I just dont care what weapon he did, like you would not care what brand of beer a guy drank if he crashed a car into your family.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

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[Pavulon]

10. Yes lets do. A criminals choice of rifle , bolt or semi

is irrelevant to me. It is irrelevant to my choices and ability to own or not own a type of rifle. Just like a drunk who kills while drinking Bud Light has zero impact on my ability to but cheap crappy light beer.

We are responsible for our actions.

[Name removed]

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[Callisto32]

21. Mags are cheap, ammo is expensive.

Empty mags are not uncommon.

[dashrif]

26. yep

http://www.impactguns.com/store/LR-243.html

[Name removed]

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[Pavulon]

7. To be clear, I dont care what he used.

he is a criminal, his choices have dick to do with me.

[MichaelHarris]

9. So weapons that kill police officers

have no interest for you?

[Pavulon]

11. Weapons dont kill police officers, people do. Just like buses in london

arent blown up by peroxide and another household chemical. The whole intent thing should be clear.

Now when a meteor falls from the sky and kills someone I will be a bit more interested in the details.

[Callisto32]

22. To be fair, household hydrogen peroxide is hardly what we are talking about in bombs.

Industrial grade peroxide is a whole 'nuther animal.

[Pavulon]

25. The required concentration is available in a household chemical.

I will not name that chemical but walmart sells it.

[armueller2001]

12. The configuration that

he was in possession of is illegal under California state law. Criminals break laws. Wow.

[X_Digger]

15. Let's see here..

There were fewer officers killed in 2008 than since before 1999.

Interesting data.. I need to save this one for all the yahoos who talk about an officer being killed by having his own weapon taken away from him.. grand total of 4 in 2008.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/2008/data/table_14.html

But more important to this discussion..

Six officers were killed by rifles in 2008, less than the previous two years, and it's trending down, like other crimes.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/2008/data/table_27.html

I'm sorry, were you trying to whip up a moral panic again?

[bossy22]

17. would you feel better if a police officer

if he was killed with a handgun?

[PavePusher]

18. Nope. The weapon is not the issue.

If a police officer was killed with a bolt action rifle, would you give up the ones you profess to own?

[proteus_lives]

20. People kill people.

Weapon are just tools.

[Euromutt]

23. This type of firearm being used to kill a cop is a rarity

At least, as far I can tell. The Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted (LEOKA) section of the 2008 UCR has a table that breaks down the various calibers used in killing of LEOs who were wearing body armor, 1999-2008 http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/2008/data/table_39.html

Again, note that this is over a ten-year period.

.223 Remington: 12
5.56x45mm: 1

So the maximum number of body armor-wearing LEOs killed by AR calibers in those ten years is 13. However, given that .223 Rem is a common chambering for varmint rifles, both bolt-action and semi-auto (e.g. the Ruger Mini-14), it's not a given that all (or indeed, any) of these killings were committed using ARs.

Now to put things in perspective. Some other calibers used in the same ten-year period:

Handgun, .38 Spl: 26
Shotgun, 12 gauge: 27
Handgun, .40 S&W: 43
Handgun, 9x19mm: 54

All rifles: 58 (including the 13 listed above)

Both .38 Spl revolvers and 12-gauge shotguns were used to kill twice as many armor-wearing cops as the maximum possible number of AR-related deaths. Even by now supplanted NIJ standards for body armor, a level II vest would stop all four of these calibers (assuming 00 buckshot in the shotguns), and level II is typically the minimum worn by patrol officers; the obvious conclusion being that the rounds bypassed the body armor (i.e. the officer was struck in the head, neck, armpit, lower abdomen/groin, etc.).

Bottom line: in the ten-year period in question, despite the fact that soft body armor is designed to stop handgun rounds, not rifle rounds, far more LEOs were killed using rounds that their vests would have stopped than were killed using rounds that their vests were not designed to stop. The total number of body armor-wearing LEOs killed using rifles was 58; 9x19mm handguns alone killed almost as many.

By any logic, we should more concerned about .38 Spl revolvers and 12-gauge shotguns than we should about ARs.

[SteveM]

28. And AR 15s kill how many police officers?

[beevul]

31. No more than wepons that kill wives have interest to you.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x297207


Keep pushing, you'll get your foot in there if you try hard enough.


:rofl:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

32. So you want to ban all weapons that have been used to kill police officers?

[SteveM]

27. Some Savage Model 99s (lever action) chamber .243.

[X_Digger]

13. OMG Ban teh gunz!

Yah, still more people killed with hands and feet..

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2008/data/table_20.html

Rifles - 375
Shotguns - 444
Hands, fists, feet, etc. - 861
Knives - 1,897

[PavePusher]

14. Seriously, why does the style/model/calibre/color...

...of the weapon matter? Is someone shot with a red-trimmed AR in 5.56mm any more or less wounded/dead than someone shot with a .223cal bolt-action with a walnut stock?

Shouldn't the focus be on intent of the person?

[Katya Mullethov]

16. It does seem like just the thing to grab

When ya wanna "really try to aim and hit something" . As opposed to closing your eyes, pointing in the general direction of the target , and making repeated exlamations about how great your god is .

[slackmaster]

24. Impossible. AR-15 rifles are banned in California.

:sarcasm:

[SteveM]

29. If I got an AR 15 platformed rifle, I'd have a scope (and larger caliber) as well...

Since I would be using it for hunting, a .223 is too weak a round. I'd want a .260 REM or .308 WIN, and I would mount a scope. The magazine? One holding far fewer rounds (they could snag on brush); if I needed more rounds, I would carry a second magazine.

This guy is a crim, so I don't much care if he had an AK or an Iver Johnson: he won't have 'em anymore.

Did you know that perhaps l6 - 17,000,000 American civilians own the class of weapon the AR 15 falls into? The AR 15 (and similar arms) WILL become the home-defense weapon of choice, and WILL become the big-game weapon of choice in the future. The train has left the station, MichaelHarris.

[GreenStormCloud]

30. He also had a security guard card.

Aren't they on the list of people whom gun-control advocates allow to have guns?

[cliffordu]

33. What a fucking wimp.

Real men only need .22 rimfire cartridges.