Holding gun sideways (hollywood style) causes gun to jam

[Liberal_in_LA]

Why Do Rappers Hold Their Guns Sideways?
Because it looks so Hollywood.
By Brian Palmer
Posted Monday, Dec. 14, 2009, at 6:18 PM ET

Why wouldn't you just fire a pistol the normal way?As police chased Raymond "Ready" Martinez through Times Square on Thursday, the street hustler and aspiring rapper fired two shots, holding the gun sideways "like a character out of a rap video." According to the New York Post, Martinez's side grip caused the gun to jam, enabling police to shoot and kill the suspect. What's the point of holding a gun sideways?

To look Hollywood, of course. Journalists and gun experts point to the 1993 Hughes brothers film Menace II Society, which depicts the side grip in its opening scene, as the movie that popularized the style. Although the directors claim to have witnessed a side grip robbery in Detroit in 1987, there are few reports of street gangs using the technique until after the movie came out. The Hughes brothers didn't invent the grip, though. In 1961's One-Eyed Jacks, Marlon Brando used it, as did Eli Wallach in 1966's The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly. Directors may prefer the style because it makes it easier to see both the weapon and the actor's face in a tight camera shot.

the New York Post reported that Martinez's side grip caused the gun to "stovepipe"—that's when the spent casing gets caught in the ejection port, jamming the weapon—it's unlikely that the horizontal orientation caused the failure. In theory, tilting a gun sideways—90-degrees counter-clockwise for a right-handed shooter—means that gravity works against the ejection of the spent casing. As a practical matter, however, gravity is so weak compared to the force of the ejection that jamming is no more frequent in the sideways position than in the customary one. The more likely cause of the jam was Martinez's choice of weapon and ammunition. The MAC-10 is prone to stovepiping—a problem that's exacerbated by the use of hollow-point bullets, which may become deformed and scrape the inside of the barrel, or underpowered ammunition, which can slow the slide and throw off the mechanism's timing.

http://www.slate.com/id/2238560/

[tridim]

1. Holding no gun at all also guarantees a jam-free experience.

[slackmaster]

5. Yes, and not being a street criminal greatly reduces the chance of getting shot

By cops or by anyone else.

[jobycom]

19. That varies depending on race and location.

The less white you are, the more likely you are to get shot for carrying a wallet, asking a question, sitting in your car, or anything else suspicious.

[slackmaster]

24. Shot or arrested

It's all true.

[madokie]

22. No guns here either

[ManiacJoe]

36. But where is the fun in that?!?!???

[cabluedem]

58. Exactly. Now all we have to do is remove the handguns from the gun goons. nt

[Blue_Tires]

2. "Why Do Rappers Hold Their Guns Sideways??"

is this goddamned 1994 again or something?? even the most stereotypical rap stars stopped doing that by the end of the 90s...

and thanks to slate for making sure he was described as a 'street hustler' and 'aspiring rapper' as opposed to ordinary, everyday 'criminal' :sarcasm:

[slackmaster]

3. Obligatory gratuitous reposting of HoMeBoY NyTe SyTeS ad parody

[krispos42]

4. !

:rofl:

[gratuitous]

10. Disclaimer

Please note that the above posting is a "slackmaster" style posting, not a genuine, accept-no-substitutes "gratuitous" brand posting (insist on the best!), which would have been a lot funnier and snarkier. Be assured that gratuitous Industries Inc. has contacted its team of legal eagles, who will no doubt issue the appropriate cease-and-desist letter to avoid confusion with the uniform high quality of genuine gratuitous posts. If your website offers you a counterfeit gratuitous post, find the webmaster and feel free to kick him in the nads or punch her in the hooters, as the case may be. Insist on only bona fide gratuitous brand posts!

[slackmaster]

23. LOL!

:rofl:

[tburnsten]

52. I want to make mine ambi

Give me two pair of 'em, and I'll leave the Trijis up top so I can aim no matter which hand or style I want to go with

[EOTE]

6. That's not exactly what the article states.

In fact, it seems like it says the opposite, and that the gun jammed because of his choice of gun and ammo.

[Ikonoklast]

7. I read somewhere that drive by shooters used this technique.

The window would only be open wide enough for the barrel to protrude, and the spent shell casings from a semi-auto would stay inside the vehicle, leaving less forensic evidence at the scene.


Never saw how that tactic would let one actually hit anything accurately, just spray bullets around, but I guess that works if there are enough shooters.

[Posteritatis]

8. Drive-bys usually don't hit anything

They're... well, not regular, but common enough that I roll my eyes at the news of another one in my town in the last five or ten years. I don't think I can remember anyone getting hit in any of them.

Obviously people do get hit in them, but it's one of those approaches that has more style than effectiveness, which is probably better for all involved given the intent of the things.

[Pavulon]

9. No they just end up killing innocent bystanders..

god help us if these assholes ever learn to aim a weapon. Some weapons will jam based on the slide mass and recoil. A glock 17 would be more likely to have an issue than say a SIG226. Been my experience from fucking around with this at the range.

Of course you cant hit shit with this method.

[RamboLiberal]

12. In a moving vehicle be damned hard to aim accurately no matter

how you held the gun. Trying to shoot from a moving vehicle for most but the most expert shooters would be more spray n' pray.

I remember reading a non-fiction book following homicide detectives in LA back in the nineties. They'd often find an unshot round at the crime scene. Seems the dumb criminals would dramatically rack the slide on a semi-auto cause they'd see TV/movie characters do that and end up ejecting the live round that was already in the chamber.

[SteveM]

47. Yeah, like some cowboy levering his Winchester just before he shoots (nt)

[ManiacJoe]

31. In a drive-by might be the circumstance, but not for that reason.

As long as the ejection port remains inside the vehicle, all the empty shells will remain in the vehicle regardless of rotation since the direction of ejection includes movement back toward the shooter.

What does make a bit more sense from the point of view of the drive using a small window slit is that by rotating the gun sideways the recoil will travel in the same plane as the window slit (horizontally) instead of vertically into the roof of the car.

[TexasObserver]

11. This is something known by all who shoot automatics.

You should never, ever turn one sideways to shoot, particularly with the right hand, because the gun ejects spent cartridges (the brass) out the right. By turning the gun on the side, the chance of brass dropping back down into the opened chamber and locking the gun from firing further is increased. Even if a gun is fired in the proper position, brass can hang up. It's the primary reason many of the older guys insisted on using a revolver.

[RamboLiberal]

13. You're right

I've played with the sideways shooting briefly just to see what would happen. Glocks and a Sig. Didn't happen but I realize it could.

Only stovepipe I ever got on a Sig was when shooting IDPA a spent case bounced off a barrier and did a perfect stovepipe right in to the chamber.

[TexasObserver]

18. Yeah, the spent casings will bounce off the wall of the right barrier in a shooting lane.

I've had hot brass bounce off the barrier and down the neck of my shirt. Also had one come back and hang up in the chamber. Also had one bounce off the wall and hit my shooting glasses.

I haven't shot in years. The concussion is bad for my ears and the gas from the firing is bad for my nose and throat.

[RamboLiberal]

32. I had hot brass bounce off a barrier down in to the shirt

I'm female so it ended up in the bra. Nasty little burn cause I had to leave it there till I completed the COF and unloaded, show clear, holster! OUCH!

[tburnsten]

54. Convoy live fire during Basic was awful

I was ok, but it seemed like everyone else got hot 5.56mm brass down their collars and stuck under their gear, the procedure is about twenty or more guys (Fort Knox, all male) stuffed onto outwards facing benches in the back of a truck, so the last guy on the drivers' side had it good, and the first guy on the passenger side. Everyone else was facing down an ejection port with about six to twelve inches between their face and the rifle of the guy on their left. Ouch.

[Ikonoklast]

27. I did it too, just for shits and giggles.

Ruger P-90 .45, and it spit a nice, hot spent shell casing right up over my head and down the back of my shirt.

[SteveM]

48. I got good at levering .30-30 shells into my front pocket at the range (nt)

[east texas lib]

60. Now that's a neat trick!

I'm a lefty so I've dodged hot rifle brass all my life.:D

[tburnsten]

53. One in a million

[Obamanaut]

17. Or the more common semi automatic. nt

[TexasObserver]

20. Semantics.

Yes, most "automatics" are really semi-automatics, but commonly referred to as "automatics" when discussing pistols and their design.

[Obamanaut]

28. proper terminology nt

[ManiacJoe]

33. Unfortunately, semi-auto = auto in handgun terms.

While that terminology is correct according the definitions for handguns, it does confuse many people because in the terminology for rifles and shotguns semi-auto != auto and those are the terms most people are familiar with. (Submachine guns being a relatively new gun category and all.)

However, for those reasons, it is usually clearer to all involved if semi-auto handguns are referred to as semi-auto.

[Tejas]

34. In Washington DC, they're both considered "machine guns".

That .25 Lorcin?

"machine gun"

[TexasObserver]

43. certainly for newbies to guns

I'm an old timer. The gun has been called an automatic for decades. Maybe you've learned to use semi-automatic, but that's you.

[SteveM]

49. My old '03 Win. .22 (made in 1905) has "automatic" engraved on it (nt)

[Euromutt]

59. It's not about whether you're a newbie; it's about avoiding ambiguity around non-gun types

Certainly on a forum like this one, where a fair number of posters aren't into guns, and are often quite vehemently opposed to them, it helps to keep your terminology unambiguous, so that you don't have to explain ad nauseam that "automatic" means something different when you're talking about long guns than it does when you're talking about handguns.

[tburnsten]

55. Automatic is commonly used for any self-loading firearm

It doesn't always mean full automatic, which is more accurately called select fire.

[jeepnstein]

26. We were taught in the acadmeny...

to hold our weapon slightly to the side, roughly 45 degrees, when shooting one handed from our weak side to help minimize recoil. It works but is a bit of a drag on accuracy. When shooting from fifteen feet or less it doesn't really matter all that much.

[RamboLiberal]

29. In IDPA shooting I find that works well for Weak Hand Shooting

Also in some scenarios where barricades or awkward angles are involved.

[tburnsten]

56. I think old-school bulls-eye shooters often use a slightly canted hold

similiar to what you are describing, if you extend your arm with a loose fist kind of quickly you can see that your arm wants to leave your hand canted about 75 degrees or so, not quite vertical.

[JonQ]

14. Also makes you look like an idiot

and reduces your chance of hitting the intended target.

[spanone]

15. better question...why do rappers hold guns?

[Echo In Light]

16. Preferred affectation that's effective on females who dig alpha male stereotypes

[jobycom]

21. I had a bunch of cop friends who really liked it when this became trendy.

Wasn't because the gun jammed, it was because that overhead side grip was impossible to aim. Made their jobs less dangerous, they joked.

By the way, the reason filmmakers like the grip isn't to show more of the face, but because it displays the biceps more aggresively, especially the overhand side grip.

[BoneDaddy]

25. Cause gangsta rappers

are comical and horrible role models for young black males.

[GreenStormCloud]

30. Why they do it.

It actually serves a practical purpose in a drive-by shooting. In such a use, shots are fired as rapidly as possible. With a normal hold, a pistol bounces upward and time is needed for the hand to bring the pistol back on target. Really rapid fire will cause the pistol to climb as it is fired, hitting nothing. This is doubly true is the pistol happens to be a machine pistol, such as a converted MAC-10. (NOTE: No current manufactured semi-auto is easily converted to full-auto. But back in the 1970s the MAC-10 could be easily converted.) Holding the gun sideways made the recoil cause the gun to sweep across the target area during rapid fire.

It became the standard way for a gang-banger to hold his handgun. Then Hollywood picked it up.

Beyond poin-blank range the typical gang member is incompetent with a pistol. They don't practice.

[Euromutt]

35. That's a dangerous assumption to make

Beyond point-blank range the typical gang member is incompetent with a pistol. They don't practice.

There was study published by the Force Science Research Center in 2007 that made some findings about a sampling of persons involved in shootings of/at LEOs. Of the respondents:
- almost 40% claimed to have received formal firearms training, primarily in the armed forces;
- over 80% claimed to practice 24 times a year or more;
- over 40% claimed to have been involved in shooting incidents before.
Now, admittedly, this is from a sample of 43 offenders, and specifically those convicted of (attempted) LEO shootings, so it's not necessarily representative of the "typical gang member" (and who knows how many of them may have been lying through their teeth), but it's still prudent to bear in mind that there are armed criminals out there who have a decent idea of what they're doing. A sobering thought in particular is that gang members with formal firearms training may be able to pass at least some of that training on to fellow members.

Don't get complacent, is all I'm suggesting.

[benEzra]

39. Quite so. As you point out, though, those were the extreme end of the bell curve...

not only those who decided to shoot it out with the police, but those who engaged in shootouts with police and didn't lose. That is a highly selective sample; the vast majority of criminals don't get to the point of engaging the police, and of those who do, the vast majority don't win.

One thing that does worry me about the relaxing of U.S. military admissions standards in the 2000's, though, was the number of admitted gang members who (allegedly, at least according to the MSM) signed up for infantry MOS's in order to obtain training in weapons and infantry tactics.

[tburnsten]

57. There was one guy in particular in my basic company

who spent the majority of reception delivering classes on the various gangs and the evolution of them into different gangs. He was there under court orders, it was Army or five years w/no chance of early release. I wasn't comfortable with him being there, he really did think he was still in gangland Texas.

[GreenStormCloud]

44. True, never underestimate a threat.

With my luck, I would get the one gang-banger that really knows what he is doing. Assume they are competent until they are neutralized, then talk about what an idiot they were.

Still, most of them are incompetent.

[PavePusher]

50. "Incompetent" does not, unfortunately, equate to "Not dangerous", however. n/t

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

40. "This is doubly true is the pistol happens to be a ... MAC-10." - Bullshit

Have you ever shot a REAL MAC-10 or MAC-11? One handed sideways nontheless?!?
Doing so out a car window would put about the 3rd or 4th shot into the side mirror.
Too much muzzle flip. Not to mention when open bolt guns eject upwards they are jam-o-matics.

If you want to a somewhat controlled sweep, you grab the front strap (suicide-strap) and pull down while holding and firing the gun @ a 45 degree angle. Two hands. This lets the front hand control muzzle rise and the gun has a limited amount of side sweep... just let it ride until the mag is empty. Of course, if you actually wanted to have decent chance at *hitting* something with a MAC, you could always extend the stock and shoot it like it was designed to be shot.

Shooting a MAC one handed is just like begging for a Darwin Award. Controlling 1200rpm with 1 hand is silly.
I've tried it... it don't work... no matter how orient it. And I'm a big guy too (over 250).

[GreenStormCloud]

45. Thanks for the correction. Regards the MAC, I was going on what I had read.

Sometimes, one reads poor info. Again, Thanks.

[Euromutt]

51. I don't think the weapon in question was a real MAC-10

As opposed to some semi-auto-only "assault pistol" knockoff variant (like these :https://www.masterpiecearms.com/products.php?cat=7). Which means in all likelihood a closed-bolt design, but no stock.

[benEzra]

37. Actually, it probably wasn't the angle of the gravity vector that caused the jam...

as 9.8m/s^2 is pretty small potatoes compared to the accelerations and velocities of the masses involved. It is possible the shooter was limp-wristing it (which is a function of grip pressure and arm tension, not the angle of the plane of the firearm), but I suspect it was more likely the fact that it was a cheaply made design poorly maintained by the shooter. Anyone who holds a gun sideways to shoot it probably doesn't know jack squat about maintaining it for reliable function, either.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

42. The MAC guns are indeed prone to jamming.

The real open bolt ones anyways. At 1200rpm, that bolt is really hauling ass.
If I tilt my mac it will stovepipe ejected and live rounds.
My mac also likes to jam if I shoot short bursts rather than dump whole mags.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

38. Why do rappers hold their guns sideways? ....

Because they like to jam!

[proteus_lives]

41. Yep, known that for years.

Part of my father's firearm instruction.

[lepus]

46. I have heard rumors

that the sideways grip originated with the East German secret police for use in close quarters combat. I don't know the truth of the rumor so I can't really say.

Meanwhile, being a lefty, that grip could actually work for me if I had some of those nifty sideways sites, :)