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Valarauko Donating Member (227 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 04:07 PM
Original message
Gun Control Article Draft: Please review
Let me preface this short piece by stating that I am by no means a republican. In fact, even seeing the faces of D*** Cheney, John AsKKKroft, and the rest of the Shrub Gang makes me almost physically sick. I’m no libertarian either – my support for public education, income taxes, welfare and Medicaid has turned me into a black sheep among die-hard Emerson Ngu wannabes. I personally identify myself as liberal – or, as the die-hard Hillarites designate this particular model of liberal, a left-libertarian. (Whatever… ).
I raise the ire of my fellow liberals by many things (I might be the universal champion in the art of annoying people), but mainly by my total and blanket opposition to almost any forms of gun control. I would be totally fine in a land where any sane adult could walk into a gun store and purchase a machinegun, a pair of grenades, pay for them with his credit card (or cash) and walk out and carry them around town. There’s a lot you should learn about gun control, but here’s two facts you should know:

1)In 2003, the Center for Disease Control published a study in which they said that none of the previously published studies has been able to prove that gun control causes a reduction in gun crime or gun accidents. Other studies, published by researchers in Russia, the UK, Australia, Canada and the USA have pointed out the very same thing previously – namely that gun control did not decrease violent crime, and some even claimed that gun control increases it. Up to the date of this article (December 5th, 2003), no research upholding gun control has survived peer correction. That means that even if you disagree with those who claim gun control increases violent crime, there’s still no proof whatsoever it decreases it. Therefore, we must agree that, as far as current research goes, gun control has no proven benefit.

2) “On January 8, 2003 the BATF conducted a search at the residence of Mark S. Lancaster in Mt. Juliet, Tennessee (located just outside of Nashville). Lancaster was arrested after they found several machine guns that had been assembled from parts kits (mainly WWII era). That was all...nothing more. He had not been selling these machine guns, using them in a crime, and he had not been involved with drugs or terrorism. He simply had them in his home.“ Mark Lancaster was then indicted with “One count of possession of NFA firearms (machine guns), one count of knowingly engaging in a business as a manufacturer of NFA firearms, one count of possessing NFA firearms without paying the special occupational tax required for the business, and another possession of NFA firearms charge. The indictment states that he had 15 machine guns, but it was apparently also counting guns that didn’t work and/or weren’t even put together.” The “engaging in business” part is certainly the most idiotic, being that even according to the ATF he didn’t sell even one machinegun.
Lancaster was therefore simply collecting exotic weapons. That was his crime, for which he was facing charges that could bring about up to 40 years of imprisonment, huge fines, and, finally, a total loss of all gun rights. Mark Lancaster, a gun collector, will never be able to own a .22 rife – till the end of his life, even if he’s only sentenced to one day in prison – just the same as a violent criminal.
It is said that there were several violations of due process in the procurement of his search warrant. It doesn’t matter. Let us assume for a moment that Mark Lancaster is guilty as charged. Maybe what Wylie says is untrue about them machineguns. Maybe he did in fact have 15 new-in-the-box M2 heavy machineguns in his basement, ready to roll. Even then, however, the fact stays that he was accused of no violent crime or intent to commit one.
Now, here’s the question: It is known to us that there’s no proven benefit to gun control. None. Zilch. Nada. What, then, is the moral justification for doing that? Why put a man in prison for fourty years? And what is the moral justification for doing that to hundreds of other Mark Lancasters every year?
Remember, a ban is always violence. Every law banning something has a cop or ATF agent enforcing it. A person who supports a ban, supports its enforcement - otherwise, what’s the point? So if you support gun control, you support Mark Lancaster being put away, the ATF going on kitten-stomping sprees, and all them other “excesses”. And for some people, the excesses get very violent. Remember that minor incident in 1993 when over 70 people got burned alive? The search warrant on the Branch Davidians was on charges of letting a non-US citizen have access to a firearm. Was it worth it to lead an all-out assault on Waco, guns blazing? And I don’t care how crazy Koresh was. Crazy people have a right to life, too, you know.
And you support banning people from having machineguns. You support giving ATF more and more power to do those things. You support the imprisonment of Mark Lancaster. You support Waco. Now would you please tell me why you’re supporting those things?

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Wonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 04:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. 15 machine guns. That was all...nothing more.
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Valarauko Donating Member (227 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. And that differs from a collection of 500 butterflies how?
But I'm sorry, people who you don't like should go to prison.
Are you aware of the fact this guy could face what's practically LIFE in prison?
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. Let's see you butterfly someone to death
and then we'll talk....
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Valarauko Donating Member (227 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
13. And a collection of 15 chainsaws?
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. In whose hands?
Clearly some people oughtn't to be trusted with butterflies.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Now if he'd had 16 or 17...
No rubbish too absurd for the RKBA crowd, is there?
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DoNotRefill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #1
17. Actually, 18 U.S.C. 922(o)...
was recently declared unconstitutional by the 9th circuit court of appeals.
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CarinKaryn Donating Member (629 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
3. Sounds like you'd be happy in shrub's hellhole of Iraq
I would be totally fine in a land where any sane adult could walk into a gun store and purchase a machinegun, a pair of grenades, pay for them with his credit card (or cash) and walk out and carry them around town.

There’s a lot you should learn about gun control...

The craziest part of your premise is that you think someone with outlandish views such as yours should be teaching US!

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Valarauko Donating Member (227 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. You know, if Iraq would be the no-drug-laws, no-gun-laws paradise
Edited on Tue Dec-09-03 04:50 PM by Valarauko
it's advertised to be... I'd move in the moment Shrub moves out.

But of course CarinKaryn, if someone's view are outlandish, he's wrong.

I'd be also happy in: 1910's UK, 1900's Russia, 1900 to 1974 Switzerland, 1920's France.

For an anti-gun hell-hole, try Israel. Sooo safe.
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CarinKaryn Donating Member (629 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. What are you talking about?
Any of the gun lovers will be happy to tell you that concealed weapon permits are issued in Israel, people carry machine guns in the street, everyone's a militia member, blah blah blah.

It's not an anti-gun place and you are eating away your credibility with each post.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. I'm bemused
Edited on Tue Dec-09-03 05:02 PM by MrBenchley
by his notion of 1900s Russia as a gun lover's paradise...

Most "hard core Hillarites" know better...
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Valarauko Donating Member (227 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Read some Russian history.
LOL!!!
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Been there, done that....
Tell it to the Tsar and the Ohkrana...
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Valarauko Donating Member (227 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. You spell it Ohranka
BTW, Russia's first serious gun law got enacted in 1905.
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demsrule4life Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Thank god it is not a anti-gun place
considering all of my neghbors would like to see me dead.
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Valarauko Donating Member (227 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. I LIVE in Israel. (nt)
nt
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Wonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. MicroBalrog, is that you again?
There can't be all that many Russian/Israeli gun fetishists on the internet who really want a greater proliferation of firearms of all types in America and like to repeatedly register on DU in spite of being banned over and over again, can there?
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Tinfoil Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. Funny I was thinking the same thing


The craziest part of your premise is that you think someone with outlandish views such as yours should be teaching US!



My thoughts weren't directed at the original poster, however.
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1a2b3c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-09-03 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
11. left-libertarian. (Whatever… ).
Edited on Tue Dec-09-03 06:59 PM by 1a2b3c
WHatever is kind of what i thought. I was once called a compassionate libertarian here. All i know is i dont fit in to any group at the moment, and of the big 2 i fit closer to the dems. Take a dem and throw in some green, with libertarian gun control and smaller government, then maybe a little socialist for the spreading of wealth amoungst the people and not the select few republicans....that me. Whatever.

I wonder if you caught shit for mentioning waco. Come on man, didnt anyone tell you only the radical gun wacko mentions waco. :eyes:
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-10-03 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
19. This sounds like a set up case.
Edited on Wed Dec-10-03 11:21 PM by happyslug
What I mean by a set up case, is a case set up by the parties involved to get a favorable appellant decision (often a Supreme Court Decision). These tend to have very narrow factual disputes (or no factual disputes at all) and very narrow issues of law that rarely occurs in real life.

For example the Dred Scott Case of 1857 was brought by Dred Scott against his Master on the grounds his master had taken him into a Free state and by that action made him a freemen under the laws of that state. His master agreed he had taken Dred Scott into the old Northwest
Territories of the US (Modern Wisconsin and Minnesota. The states of Illinois, Michigan, Indiana and Ohio had already been created out of the old Northwest Territory), but that taking Dred Scott into those areas did not make him free for under the Full Faith and Credit Clause of the US Constitution those states had to accept Dred Scott’s designation as a Slave.

Dred Scott and his master where working with an Anti-Slavery group to show that the Slaves under the Constitution could not exist once the majority of States had abolished Slavery. The Supreme Court split on the issue. One of the reason Dred Scott was pick to represent Slaves was that the Act he was claiming under was the Northwest Territory Act of 1785, which outlawed Slavery in the Northwest Territories and it was passed and adopted BEFORE the US Constitution was adopted, but preserved under that Constitution.

This narrowed the issues down, the right for a black to be free in the Northwest Territory was FEDERAL law, not State law (Thus the Supreme Court could not avoid the issue on the ground it was an issue of state law) and it was PASSED before the Constitution and the Constitution said EVERY act under the Confederation remain valid law under the Constitution (Thus the issue of whether Congress could pass such a law could not be used).

The Supreme Court split all over itself in Dred Scott. No Majority Decision, Justice Taney’s plurality (it had four out of nine Judges signing off on his opinion that basically said Blacks had never been citizens of the US and therefore Dred Scott could Never have been freed by Federal Law and therefore the Federal Government could NOT outlaw Slavery and thus the Northwest Ordinance, the Missouri Compromise of 1820 and the California Compromise of 1850 were all un-constitutional). Dred Scott was reversed by the Post-Civil War Amendments which clearly said non-whites have the same rights as white Americans, including the right to vote and equal protection of the laws.

My point here is this was a set up case from day one, while Dred Scott lost, his Master subsequently freed him, Dred Scott’s actual ability to be free was not really at issue. It had been hoped that by that decision the issue of Slavery would be ended but all it did was lead to Civil War.

Another made up case is the case involving sterilization of the mental retarded in BUCK v. BELL, 274 U.S. 200 (1927). In Buck both sides to the argument had agreed to limit the issue to whether the states had the right to sterilize “mental defectives” who inherited their “mental defectiveness”. Justice Holmes made his famous comment “Three generations of imbeciles are enough” The real sadness in that case is the Third Generation graduated High School later on (Experts on intelligence had NOT been permitted in the trial unless they supported the states position, and that was true about the experts called by the “mental defective’s” attorney. By the way, no one even today knows where high intelligence comes from and where it goes in the DNA. High IQ people even if they have children with High IQ children, after 2-3 generation the children are no longer high IQs. Same with Mental Retardation not caused by physical damage to the brain. Such DNA “mental Defectives” were the issue in the 1927 case).

Other made up cases have also made it to the court, often with the knowledge of some or all of the Justices. They tend to be rare but like the above case based on very narrow facts and law.

The reason I believe that to be the case here, is look at this case, everyone is admitting he did not use these weapons in a Crime, he did not try to sell them to a third party (who might have been planning to use them in a crime), he did not advertise them for sale. All of these can complicate a Right to Bare Arms Attack on Federal Gun Control Laws (which are based on the Power of Congress to Tax items that are being sold, i.e. an excise tax). He had no plans to ell them and everyone admits he had no intention to sell them, so failing to pay the Excise Tax is NOT an issue. It is also admitted that he never intended to use the weapon, thus violating laws regarding the use of weapons in a crime were also not violated. In most cases involving illegal Firearms, one or the other of these laws are violated in addition to the law prohibiting the ownership of automatic weapons. The Defense Attorney general opts for a plea bargain in such cases so there is no appeal on the issue of the mere ownership of Automatic Weapons. If no plea bargain is made, the issue of paying the tax, or conspiring with another person to commit a crime is also charged and if convicted of all charges (and most people are, it generally is all or none) on appeal the appellant court will uphold the verdict on the grounds of having not paid the tax, or conspiracy instead of just owning an automatic weapon.

Thus this sounds like a made up case. The issue is to narrow for most people who violate firearms laws (i.e. most people who are arrested for Firearms Violation also do not pay the transfer fees, keep the needed records AND conspiring with other people to commit a crime). Sounds to narrow a case to be typical, sounds more like a case made up to attack the 1986 Machine Gun Ban as violating the Second Amendment. This case will be an interesting case to watch over the next 2-3 years.



To Read Buck vs Bell see:
http://www.law.du.edu/russell/lh/alh/docs/buckvbell.html

Information on Dred Scott (This claim is was NOT a made up case, but given that the Supreme Court can only take cases where there is a “Controversy” no one EVER provides evidence that the case is made up. To admit you made up a case is to admit to committing a “fraud” on the Court and the lawyers can be dis-barred for committing an act of “fraud” on the court. Thus made up cases are NEVER admitted to being made up, you just have to look at them and see that there is no way such a narrow legal and factual dispute could occur unless both sides wanted, and worked together, to limit those disputes):
http://www.nps.gov/jeff/ocv-dscottd.htm

The Dred Scott Decision itself (This is Chief Justice Taney’s Opinion, each of the Justices wrote their own opinion in this case. Click on their name to read what each wrote. The original decision was over 200 pages long, at time BEFORE Typewriters and even Steel pens, thus each had to be HAND WRITTEN with a quill pen, and had to be legible also. With modern word processors 200 + opinions are easy, not so in the 1850s.)
http://www.tourolaw.edu/patch/Scott/

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