MA Governor Deval Patrick Proposes Super-strict New Rules For Gun Clubs.

[GreenStormCloud]

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2009/10/22/mass_gun_clubs_all_fired_up_against_proposed_regulations/

(Snip)


The regulations are being proposed by Governor Deval Patrick after an 8-year-old boy accidentally killed himself with a machine gun at a gun club event in Westfield last October.

If adopted, the regulations will require clubs to obtain special licenses, a police detail, and have one certified firearms safety instructor for every 20 attendees (or one for every five attendees if children are present) at all events that are open to nonmembers. The regulations would also require clubs to submit a safety plan to the local police department 30 days before each public event, and would ban machine guns from all public events.

(Snip)

But many club members are outraged. They say the regulations will make it financially impossible to continue with events that are open to nonmembers - such as shooting competitions, gun safety classes, and special programs for women. And the presence of a police officer could intimidate women and create a negative perception about the program, while having to write a safety plan will be a logistical nightmare, said Roberts.

“It’s going to put us out of business,’’ she said.

At the Sportsmen’s Club in Holbrook, “Lady’s Night,’’ a monthly class that offers one-on-one instruction to women for $5, may be discontinued, too, because the club will not be able afford a police detail, said club president Jerome Rivers.

(Continued at link)

[Bonhomme Richard]

1. I'm a gun owner and I think he is right. n/t

[GreenStormCloud]

2. Police WERE present when the 8 yr old had the accident.

The event in which the 8 yr old accident killed himself was not a gun club event. It was run by run by off duty public safety officials. It was an off duty police chief who was running the machine gun shoot. The same chief who discharged a firearm in a class room several years ago.
He was using off duty police officers to man the range. So the range was crawling with cops the days of the accident. Yet a mandatory police detail would have helped?

Further, the gun was a micro-Uzi, and they are not available to civilians at all. It was supplied by the Chief of Police.

[JonQ]

28. Facts are not relevent

we're talking about gun control and children being shot, emotional pleas are the only accepted argument.

[safeinOhio]

3. “It’s going to put us out of business,’’ she said.

No, letting 8 year old boys shoot machine guns will put you out of business. Clubs that allow unsafe conditions need strict regulations. The actions of one or a few are the problem for the many. If all the clubs had been proactive after the accidental death of an 8 year old, I doubt if the Gov would have got involved.

[GreenStormCloud]

5. That 8yr old was killed at a Police event.

The micro-Uzi was supplied by the Chief of Police. Tell me again how a police detail would prevent this from happening at a police event.

[geckosfeet]

9. Club event. Off duty police not giving a fuck. Letting 8 year old shoot a sub-machine gun.

On duty cop may have more sense than to let him shoot - assuming he sees it happen.

[GreenStormCloud]

10. No. Club property, Police event. Police running the event.. N/T

[safeinOhio]

6. My fault I didn't see it was not a club

Still it is every ones job to practice safety. I feel bad for the safe ones, but the public sees shooting range and gun club as the same thing.

[safeinOhio]

7. quote from article

"The regulations are being proposed by Governor Deval Patrick after an 8-year-old boy accidentally killed himself with a machine gun at a gun club event in Westfield last October."

A club event?

[GreenStormCloud]

11. The reporter screwed up. Club property, Police event.

Reporters screw up a lot.

[geckosfeet]

8. I agree with most of what you said. But the conditions leasing to the boys death

should never have occurred at a club sponsored event. This is the absolute WORST thing that could ever happen at a club sponsored event. It's the kind of thing that give gun clubs a bad name. If the clubs could have/would have properly policed events themselves, then the gov. probably would not be recommending that official uniformed details do it. Unless someone enforces preemptive safety things are going to happen.

Also, it one one thing to have a bunch of off duty cops walking around having a good time. It is quite something else to take action when an unsafe situation is observed. No one wants to be the grinch at these things, but if one person had said something that day the boy might be alive today.

[GreenStormCloud]

12. The event was a Police event, on club property.

The gun was supplied by the Chief of Police.

Why is that so difficult for people to understand?

[geckosfeet]

19. Because it's not true that it was a police event. The gun came from out of town.

Just because you say it a lot of times does not make it true.

[GreenStormCloud]

21. The event was sponsored by COP Firearms & Training of Amherst.

Are you trying to tell me that they aren't law enforcement connected? The company is run by company run by Pelham Police Chief Ed Fleury, and they supplied all weapons.

I will agree that Amherst, Pelham, and Westfield are different towns. So what?

[-..__...]

27. Fleury was indicted for involuntary manslaughter...

back in December.

[geckosfeet]

33. It is against the law for a municipally funded agency to raise money by selling cookies,

or holding pumpkin or turkey shoots. They may be run by a retired police chief, but he is retired and there are no official ties to any municipal agency. If there were, the state would have come down a lot harder than they did.

[imdjh]

4. He needs to mind his own business.

[Euromutt]

13. Maybe he should prohibit police chiefs from owning automatic weapons

In fact, disarm police chiefs entirely. They don't really need to carry on the job, and why would they have to carry off the clock?

That would have prevented that kid from dying too.

[GreenStormCloud]

14. The machinegun shooting event was sponsored COP Firearms & Training of Amherst.

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2008/10/boy8_accidentally_shoots_himse.html

The Westfield Sportsman's Club, in association with COP Firearms & Training of Amherst, was conducting a machine gun shoot and firearms exposition this weekend, according to its promotional material for the event.

The advertisement includes the information that, "You will be accompanied to the firing line with a Certified Instructor to guide you."

(Snip)

COP Firearms & Training operates machine gun shoots and provides firearms training and sales, as well as gunsmithing and other services.

[GreenStormCloud]

15. In MA, local police often use a club's facilities for police training.

It is cheaper to rent club time than it is to construct a range for a few police officers to use occasionally. If full-auto is outlawed on club property, then will that restrict the police ability to train with full-auto weapons on club property?

[Euromutt]

18. Same here in Washington state, and the cops fuck up here, too

There's a gun club in a triangle of unincorporated territory between Bellevue, Redmond and Kirkland, that was threatened with closure a few years back because some idiot ignored club safety rules and sent a bullet over the backstop and into a residential neighborhood. Thing is, the idiot in question wasn't a member of the club, but a member of Kirkland PD, who were using the range to practice.

Why penalize the gun clubs for the cops' screw-ups?

[proteus_lives]

16. That one club should be punished/fine/whatever

Don't punish people who are safe around firearms.

[spin]

17. If the governor's ideas become law and put gun clubs out of business...

expect to find a lot of people in Mass you can't shoot worth a damn and a whole bunch of new gun owners with little idea about gun safety.

But fortunately Massachusetts is one state that I have long ago crossed off my list as places to live. I prefer to live in gun friendly states such as Florida.

[geckosfeet]

20. I just went to a twelve lane indoor range with automated targets this week.

They are not going to be impacted by this at all. They rent and sell everything from semi-auto rifles (AR-15 style), pistols and ammunition. They hold many classes and educational events. They aren't going anywhere.

I am going to a 20 lane Smith and Wesson range today.

MA may have a lot of regulation, most of very sane and usable, but it wasn't enough to regulate that cluster fuck of an event last fall that killed the boy.

Have fun in Florida.

[GreenStormCloud]

22. Did they have a detail police officer on duty? N/T

[geckosfeet]

32. The people that work there all open carry. I can only assume that they

are retired or off duty police. But no. No police patrol.

That's what I mean. Zero impact on them. As a matter of fact, it will probably help their business.

[PavePusher]

25. Maybe the persons actually involved..

You know, the parent, and the gun demonstrator, should be held responsible, instead of innocent people.

Personnal responsibility. Just sayin'.

[spin]

31. When I compare the procedure for getting a concealed carry permit ...

I can see why I live in Florida.

Massachusetts

#Step 1

Apply for the Class A license. The Class B license in Massachusetts does not allow you to carry concealed handguns. You will be required to justify your request in writing. Make your request as detailed and specific as possible. Valid reasons for requesting a concealed handgun include personal threats, being in a high-risk profession or routinely carrying large amounts of cash.
#
Step 2

Take an approved training course given by the NRA or a Massachusetts state certified instructor.
#
Step 3

Obtain an application from your issuing authority. This is your police chief or state police if you are a resident. If you are not a resident, you will need to contact the Firearms Record Bureau at [phone].
#
Step 4

Submit the following documents to your issuing authority if you are a resident: the completed application; a copy of your driver's license or ID card; a copy of your birth certificate or passport; two fingerprint cards; two passport photographs; the license fee; proof of residency (may be a utility or cable bill); a training course certificate taken within the last year and a statement justifying your need for a handgun license.
#
Step 5

Send in the following documents to the Firearms Record Bureau if you are a non-resident: the completed application; one fingerprint card; one blank license; the license fee; two passport photographs; letter from the police chief (not needed if you have a CCW permit in your home state); a copy of both sides of your home CCW permit (if available); a training course certificate taken within the last year and a report from your home state Bureau of Criminal Records listing your arrest record.
#
Step 6

Receive your license within 40 days. If it is denied, you have 90 days to petition the district court for a review. Permits for residents are good for four years and a non-resident permit lasts for one year.
http://www.ehow.com/how_2064604_get-permit-carry-concealed-weapon.html

Florida

1. Step I

Get an application packet for a concealed weapon permit by contacting the Florida Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services. This Division of Licensing packet contains a copy of Chapter 790, Florida Statutes, fingerprint card and return envelope.
2.
Step 2

Read Chapter 790 of the Florida Statutes. It covers what you need to know concerning the state's firearms laws. By law you must read and understand this statute.
3.
Step 3

Complete the required weapons training class. Present proof of fulfillment with your application. Those with a military honorable discharge need to show their DD-214 document for a permit. Others need a notarized or photocopy statement from the school or organization that offered the class. See application for approved documents.
4.
Step 4

Take a passport-style color photograph to submit with your application.
5.
Step 5

Go to your local law enforcement agency with the fingerprint card. You must be fingerprinted. Specific instructions are on the card.
6.
Step 6

Pay an initial application fee. Make payment only with a cashier's check, money order or certified check to the Florida Department of State. This fee is non-refundable.
7.
Step 7

Notarize, then mail your application. Keep the pink applicant copy. Allow 90 days for processing.
http://www.ehow.com/how_2064600_get-permit-carry-concealed-weapon.html

There is no damn reason I should ever have to justify my reason for carrying concealed. It merely allows the bureaucrats to reject my permit because they don't like having people like me carrying weapons.

Homie don't kiss ass.

[PavePusher]

24. I won't even fly in or out of Boston if I can avoid it.

Sad, there's a lot of good historical stuff around there.

[-..__...]

26. With any luck...

I'll be out of this dung heap of a state within the next 3-5 years.

Life is more sane and enjoyable just 35 miles north of me (NH).

[Tim01]

23. Police are NOT gun or safety experts.

I've been with vetern cops who break the safety rules.
I don't like having guns pointed at me by accident, even if it is a cop.

[JonQ]

29. So police screw up, penalize gun clubs

But I'm glad something is finally being done to reign in these radical gun clubs, responsible for upwards of .0001% (with some rounding) of gun violence in the country.

Now we just need legislature to take matchlock rifles from gang members and we'll have successfully addressed all our problems in this area.

[RamboLiberal]

30. Gross Overreaction by Patrick to One Tragedy

IMHO let this case work its way through criminal/civil court. The assclown Police Chief who ran the event IMHO should do some jail time & be stripped of his ability to own guns. He was unsafe as an instructor even before this incident. If this particular club by allowing this jerk to run this event on their range ends up out of business because of this accident, then so be it. As a gun club member IMHO the officers of this club were derelict in their duty to the club & its members.

This could seriously jeopardize events at other clubs like USPSA, IDPA and other competitive shoots which have an excellent safety record & take gun & participant safety very seriously. I've heard of police range practices that were unsafe and there are police officers who are more unsafe in their gun handling than civilians I shoot with at competitions. We don't need a police officer to tell us how to be safe.

We just had an incident yesterday where 2 volunteers at the county jail were wounded by an ND from a police officer's weapon.

PITTSBURGH -- Two people were injured during an accidental shooting at the Allegheny County Jail Wednesday night.

Investigators said a Wilkinsburg police officer was dropping off an arrestee when his firearm accidentally went off while he was putting it into his holster.

The incident happened in the garage at the same time a tour of the jail was being given to a group called Greenfield Organized Against Drugs.

The thought of the accident concerns visitors.

http://www.wpxi.com/news/21389773/detail.html