Let women carry firearms not men...

[spin]

...I propose curbing gun violence not by further restricting the availability of guns but by expanding and reorienting it. Men would still be forbidden to walk the streets armed, in accordance with current laws, but women would be required to carry pistols in plain sight whenever they are out and about.

Were I to board the subway late at night, around Lincoln Center perhaps, and find it filled with women openly carrying Metropolitan Opera programs and Glock automatics, I’d feel snug and secure. A train packed with armed men would not produce the same comforting sensation. Maybe that’s because men have a disconcerting tendency to shoot people, while women display admirable restraint. Department of Justice figures show that between 1976 and 2005, 91.3 percent of gun homicides were committed by men, 8.7 percent by women.

Many pro-gun advocates assert that armed and honest citizens deter crime. My plan would expand the ranks of those worthies. And those who are anti-gun can embrace the plan as a noble experiment in gender equality. Gun violence — most violence — is primarily something perpetrated by men, mostly upon other men, but it is also true that men shoot women far more often than the other way around. The mutual appeal to red and blue states would ensure ratification of any necessary constitutional amendment, should The Armament Equality Act (Guns for Gals) be challenged as unconstitutional gender bias.

Given women’s splendid record of seldom shooting at, for example, me, they’ve earned a provisional chance to serve the public good in this way. Even if some women prove imprudent with firearms — that is, act like men — feminizing gun ownership could ultimately reduce its appeal to men, making gun-toting as unmasculine as carrying a purse. There are occupations whose status (and pay) declined once they were taken up by women: secretaries, telephone operators, teachers. We already endure the mischief of such sexism; why not harness it for good? And while some argue that keeping a gun for protection actually makes you statistically less safe, is that true if you factor in gender? I’m skeptical. But let’s find out empirically. Surely ethics compels a respect for truth, for mustering actual facts.

There is the risk that some women’s guns will fall into the wrong hands: a pistol might be wrested away by a husband or boyfriend. Fortunately, “smart gun” technology is being developed that can recognize a gun’s authorized user by fingerprint or grip, or that takes other approaches altogether. A thief would be unable to fire such a gun. If fingerprints, why not a testosterone-detecting trigger-lock, a pistol no man can fire? That’s American ingenuity — oddly applied, perhaps, but no less ingenious for that.

http://ethicist.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/02/give-women-guns/?scp=1&sq=The%20Moral%20of%20the%20Story%20give%20women%20guns&st=cse--made

[Taverner]

1. Yes - women never murdered anyone with a gun

:eyes:

[LynneSin]

3. And that worked so well for that Soccor mom who wanted to carry her gun to her kids game

:eyes:

[PavePusher]

6. Which has absolutely nothing to do...

with her husband's emotional problems.

Maybe you could point out the connection for those of us who missed it...

[LynneSin]

9. Maybe if she was more concerned about dealing with her husband's emotional problems

and less worried about being the mom who thinks she's so tough carrying a gun around to her daughter's soccor games, perhaps the Soccor Mom would be alive today.

Guns give people a false sense of security. I have no problems with ownership but these people who think they are all hot shit carrying them around for absolutely no reason - well proof that it doesn't solve anything.

[PavePusher]

23. Actually, she was fighting for Civil Rights.

And who is to say that her husband showed any signs of needing help until it was too late?

You must be very fit, jumping to conclusions like that.

[LynneSin]

25. Civil Rights?

Oh yes, the rights of the idiotic. Personally I see her as a candidate for the Darwin award.

:rofl:

I know gun owners. I was born and raised around them and I was taught a healthy respect for weapons. My family was in the NRA and my father & grandfather were members of the State Game Commission. My stepfather is an avid hunter. Oh, and did I mention we're all from Central PA like the gun toting Soccer Mom. Not ONE of them thinks that woman is playing with a full deck and none of them feel packing a sidearm outside of work related business is a smart thing to do. And I know where that woman lives, she wasn't in some crime-ridden neighborhood where she needed a gun. She was probably some person desperate for attention. And look what that got her.

And you are right, perhaps the husband wasn't showing any signs until too late - but then again the wife was too busy soaking up her quasi-celebritiness thinking she's all peachy keen carrying a gun to bother noticing either.

[spin]

27. Many people carry concealed...

and if the lady had carried concealed (I believe she had a concealed carry permit) there would have been no problem.

I have thought this issue through and I haven't really reached a decision on open carry. In my state, open carry in urban areas is not an option. While open carry would be easy and allow me a larger choice of firearms, I still prefer concealed carry. I attract no attention nor do I want to.

We really have no idea of the couple's marital situation. It might have been a long term problem. My advise has always been, if you suffer from anger management problems or tend to abuse alcohol or live in a bad marriage, then firearms are not for you.

But I was married for many years and the marriage suddenly imploded. My ex was worried as we both owned firearms and she was afraid of my reaction to her suggestion that we get divorced. I suggested marriage counseling, but she refused.

We had a clean breakup and a uncomplicated divorce. My daughter chose to stay with me.

My ex and myself have maintained a close friendship.We both are Steelers fans and she often watches their games with me when she is visiting our daughter and our grandchildren. There's no animosity. We had some really great times together when we were married, but people change over time.

The thought of killing someone just because of a problem in your marriage just does not compute for me. Life goes on. Everything happens for a reason. Currently both my ex and myself are happy and enjoying life. Life is just too short to ruin it by overreacting to a fairly minor thing such as a breakup in a relationship.

[Euromutt]

18. Soccor? Isn't that near El Paso?

Oh wait, that's Socorro.

If you are referring to the game that is commonly known as "football" in the rest of the world, that's spelled "soccer"; no capitalization, and only one "o".

[GreenStormCloud]

15. It's a humor piece. Lighten up. N/T

[spin]

24. Exactly. (n/t)

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

2. Please tell me you were at least hesitant before posting that garbage? n/t

[spin]

4. Not in the least...

I could see humor in it.

Plus, the story reminded me of the times when my daughter and I went somewhere and she was carrying and I wasn't.

Shes a damn good shot, I taught her. Plus she has actually had to use a gun to protect herself. She handled the situation well.

[azul]

5. Women handle money better that men, too.

It could become a Mr Macho thing: Is the big strong man so afraid of lions and tigers that he has to carry around such a weapon to protect himself? Only cowardly wimps and girls would carry guns for protection.

Women, generally speaking, are usually physically weaker, less violent and brutal: might have better use for and control of firearms.

But it's about trust and being brave and helping each other, after all, and personal responsibility and respectfulness too. Some body has been fomenting distrust and fear among Americans and has turned us into a nation of gun-totting and trigger-happy fraidy-cats afearing our own shadows.


Hear the ghosts in the background?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVvtIS2YGVI

[PavePusher]

7. Wow. just where do you get stereotype brushes that large?

I have a house you can paint...

[spin]

11. My daughter would be happy to do that for you...

and she hopes to learn to drive a 18 wheeler someday and travel all over the country with her husband. She's just waiting for her two boys to grow up and leave the nest. One's 15 and the other 14.

She's also quite proficient with firearms.

[PavePusher]

21. My apologies, Spin, I wasn't trying to imply anything against women.

I was responding to the quotes below, but didn't make myself clear.

"It could become a Mr Macho thing: Is the big strong man so afraid of lions and tigers that he has to carry around such a weapon to protect himself? Only cowardly wimps and girls would carry guns for protection."

"But it's about trust and being brave and helping each other, after all, and personal responsibility and respectfulness too. Some body has been fomenting distrust and fear among Americans and has turned us into a nation of gun-totting and trigger-happy fraidy-cats afearing our own shadows."

Maybe I interpreted that incorrectly?

[spin]

26. No problem...

I didn't take any offense.

My experience with people who carry concealed shows me that the great overwhelming majority carry not because of fear but because they prefer to be ready for the unexpected.

Of course, most of the people I know who carry concealed are experienced shooters. Some are ex-police, but they come from a large cross section of society. Many are college educated and have professional careers. Some are in the medical field and are doctors, nurses or medical technicians. Some own their own business.

I first got a concealed carry permit because I carried a firearm in my car on the way to work on the late night shift. Several incidents had occurred in my neighborhood and on the roads I traveled to get to my work. Carrying a loaded weapon in your car is not illegal in Florida. One of my co-workers who had a concealed carry permit pointed out that if a police officer stopped me and asked if I had a firearm in the car, things would go easier if I was able to show the officer a carry permit. It made sense to me, so I got one.

I rarely carried my revolver, bu the range master convinced me that since I had a permit, I should regard it as a responsibility and carry the weapon on a regular basis. His argument was, "Suppose you find yourself in a situation where you could save a person's life if you had your weapon, how would you feel if you left it in your car?" He argued that the state granted us carry permits to help reduce crime. There are plenty of good arguments on the other side, but what he said made sense to me.

Don't get me wrong, I don't pretend to be a cop and I don't go looking for trouble. I don't play vigilante and the last thing I would ever want to do is to use my weapon to injure or kill someone.

But I don't carry because I am afraid. Usually I can politely talk my way out of a bad situation as I always show respect to people, even those who don't deserve it. I don't suffer from anger management problems. Many people I know appear to be ready to fight at the drop of a hat. I avoid such foolishness. I'll fight if absolutely necessary and my life is in danger or the life of someone else is threatened. Otherwise, I'll just walk away even if it makes me look like a coward. I know who I am, and I don't feel any obligation to prove my courage to some fool.

(It does help that I'm an old fart that walks with a bad limp and has a tag that allows me to park in the handicapped zones. On the other hand that might make me a target of opportunity. I don't worry about that. I'll do my best if that happens and past history convinces me that I'll come out OK.)

I can't speak for all the people who have been rushing to get carry permits. Perhaps they are terrified of "lions and tigers". If so, I have never encountered them.

[PavePusher]

28. I second your entire statement. Well said.

"But I don't carry because I am afraid. Usually I can politely talk my way out of a bad situation as I always show respect to people, even those who don't deserve it. I don't suffer from anger management problems. Many people I know appear to be ready to fight at the drop of a hat. I avoid such foolishness. I'll fight if absolutely necessary and my life is in danger or the life of someone else is threatened. Otherwise, I'll just walk away even if it makes me look like a coward. I know who I am, and I don't feel any obligation to prove my courage to some fool.

(It does help that I'm an old fart that walks with a bad limp and has a tag that allows me to park in the handicapped zones. On the other hand that might make me a target of opportunity. I don't worry about that. I'll do my best if that happens and past history convinces me that I'll come out OK.)"


Heck, I'm a 40 year old 5'9" 200 lb. very fit male, with considerable martial arts training, and I know my limitations quite well. Hand-to-hand against even mildly trained and/or experienced attackers, I have at best 50/50 odds. Slant the skills more in their favor and I'm meat. (The odds for this stuff run on a curve, not a straight line.) And even if I'm only up against one attacker, what moral or legal principal dictates that I must risk injury or death to give the criminal a 'sporting chance'?

[spin]

30. Thanks...

I also had some martial arts training when I was around your age.

I have the feeling that you had a good instructor as you seem the realize the limitations of the art.

[PavePusher]

31. Good instructors, and some handy empirical evidence... 8>0 n/t

[spin]

10. Occasionally I would teach a woman how to shoot...

on the range.

I always found that they were easier to train than a man. Guys who have never handled a firearm think they know the basics from watching movies. They tended to ignore what I was saying and try to prove that they were Wild Bill Hickok. Women listened carefully and followed advise.

I always stood slightly behind a new woman shooter on her strong side. Many would turn with the firearm in their hand. I would simply reach out on stop them from pointing the weapon at other shooters. One time was enough to teach muzzle discipline.

Women did seem to have the ability to learn faster and shoot better than most new male shooters.

I always start all shooters off with a .22 cal firearm and when they have mastered the basics, move them up to a .38 sp revolver and after that a .45 auto or .357 mag revolver.

Women who are trained in this manner rarely have a problem firing .357 or .44 mag firearms and some enjoy the thrill.

All to often, I've seen boyfriends introduce their girlfriends to shooting by starting them off with a large caliber weapon. These idiots get a lot a kicks and grins from the girlfriend's reaction. If I were the girlfriend, I would immediately dump the boy and find a real man.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

29. I can't believe you think all cops and soldiers are cowards. Despicable.

[safeinOhio]

8. Very sexist

and what about transexuals?

[spin]

12. That would depend on their testosterone level...

From the link in the OP:

There is the risk that some women’s guns will fall into the wrong hands: a pistol might be wrested away by a husband or boyfriend. Fortunately, “smart gun” technology is being developed that can recognize a gun’s authorized user by fingerprint or grip, or that takes other approaches altogether. A thief would be unable to fire such a gun. If fingerprints, why not a testosterone-detecting trigger-lock, a pistol no man can fire? That’s American ingenuity — oddly applied, perhaps, but no less ingenious for that.

[safeinOhio]

16. So men with hypogonadism could still fire those weapons?

[spin]

22. I believe you have detected a major problem with using....

testosterone level as a method of determining who could fire a weapon.

Of course the whole idea of using fingerprints to unlock a weapon or some of the other schemes are suspect and impractical.

Unproven technology could easily fail in a real life encounter.

If Murphy's law reared its' ugly head the owner of the firearm attempting to use it for self defense could be shit out of luck.

If anything can go wrong, it will...at the most inopportune time.

[NewMoonTherian]

13. *snerk* Pretty amusing. Thanks for the break.

On an unrelated note, the gun pictured bears a striking resemblance to a Voltran starter pistol. Anyone know what it actually is?

[spin]

14. Thanks, not every one here appreciated the humor...

sometimes we get too serious in the gungeon.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

19. Unless that woman has unusually large hands, maybe a Beretta Cheetah.

The Cheetahs are similar to the Beretta 9mm pistols except they are chambered in smaller calibers.
Cheetahs were chambered in .22lr, .32acp, or .380acp. My guess is .22lr (Beretta 87) for 4 reasons:

1) Rounded trigger guard
2) "Dirty" smoke around muzzle (.22lr is a dirty round)
3) She does not seem to be experience much recoil
4) The ejected casing just doesn't look "right" for a center fire round (.22lr is rimfire)

movie trivia: In the original Matrix, the dual pistols Trinity carries are .380 (Beretta 84F) Cheetahs, not Beretta 92 9mm pistols.

[Euromutt]

17. The woman in the photo is asking for nasty case of slide bite

In fact, her support hand grip is just generally awful.

I'm actually not wholly unsympathetic to the author's premise, but some of his arguments are really lame.

Maybe that’s because men have a disconcerting tendency to shoot people, while women display admirable restraint. Department of Justice figures show that between 1976 and 2005, 91.3 percent of gun homicides were committed by men, 8.7 percent by women.

From those figures, you can derive that people who have a tendency to unlawfully shoot others are overwhelmingly male. But given that there are dozens of millions of male gun owners in this country, against under a million violent crimes involving firearms, it follows that only some men "have a disconcerting tendency to shoot people." Cohen here commits the fallacy of converse accident (http://fallacyfiles.org/hastygen.html). Maybe he considers himself an expert on ethics, but elementary logic is evidently beyond him.

It also strikes me as less than ethical on Cohen's part to willfully mislabel his proposed legislation. He names it The Armament Equality Act, but in fact what he proposes is not equality at all, as he implicitly admits by acknowledging his proposal is open to objections on the grounds that it is discriminatory. And it most assuredly is.

Given women’s splendid record of seldom shooting at, for example, me, they’ve earned a provisional chance to serve the public good in this way.

Guess what, Mr. Cohen? I have a splendid record of not shooting at you either, or at anybody else for that matter. So have most other men in this country. Have we not earned "a provisional chance to serve the public good" on that basis?

Frankly, if this column is representative of his ideas of ethics, I know I don't need to bother reading any of his other stuff.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

20. looks to me like a .22lr... so likely not - lol.

If a .22 causes someone slide bite, they should just put the pistol and reevaluate their hobbies. lol

[imdjh]

32. I can just see someone with five inch fingernails drawing a pistol.

[chrisa]

33. Lmao!

An obvious parody. Thought it was the onion at first. Sadly, I think many anti-gunners are this stupid. The VPC will probably recommend this article, thinking it's real.

Testosterone detectors. Lmao!

[cliffjj]

34. RE: Let women carry firearms not men...

Guns don't kill people, people kill people, guns protect people from people with smaller guns - Stan Smith. Not that I don't trust women with guns, but I would say it's probably best if neither men or women would carry guns....
But I know that many have a different view on this :P

[spin]

37. Welcome to DU. (n/t)

[jmg257]

35. Women silly enough to wrap their off-hand thumb behind the slide on an automatic

shouldn't be able to carry one.

Men either for that matter.

[spin]

36. Perhaps a little training would help or a box of bandages. (n/t)

[Blu_Statr]

38. Bad idea for several days each month

You've never seen the T-shirt "I have PMS and a handgun....any questions??"

The premise is sexist, so I'm going to be too.

[spin]

39. My daughter has carried for years...

she can be a real bitch around certain times of the month, but has never shot anyone.