Since criminals don't obey the Constitution, let's do away with it

[divideandconquer]

Isn't this similar to your argument against gun laws?

[Matariki]

1. self delete

sorry, didn't realize this was in a forum when I replied

[slackmaster]

2. K&U for vagueness

Who is arguing against what gun laws?

[Hoopla Phil]

6. +1

[Ozymanithrax]

3. Crimanls violate local, state, or federal law. Only in rare case do criminals violate...

the constitution. Your analogy is false.

But I have yet to ever see a law that outlaws guns outright. So the analogy you refer to is also false.

[divideandconquer]

4. No guns on airplanes, that's an outright ban

As for who says "lets do away with guns laws" here's a recent example. As for breaking the Constitution , didn't we just have a 8 year assault by the Chimperor/Satan adminstration?
<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=118&topic_id=258868&mesg_id=258868>

[Ozymanithrax]

8. It doesn't ban ownership, only where you can carry your weapon.

Carrying a weapon on an airline is seen in this climate as equal to shouting fire in a crowded theater. The later does not violate free speech in order to maintain a minimum level of public safety. Since your right to own a gun is not in doubt, it isn't a violation.

[X_Digger]

9. Planes are private property.. analogy fail. n/t

[divideandconquer]

10. Who said anything about bans, just gun laws in general

[benEzra]

12. You can take a gun on an airliner; I've done it.

It just has to be in your checked baggage and not on your person (and now you can do the same thing on Amtrak). I don't see anyone trying to repeal that.

Again, you have constructed an imaginary caricature of "gun owners" that "oppose all gun laws," and are making up senseless analogies based on that misconception. If you would like to discuss actual laws (existing or proposed), the discussion would be a bit more rationally grounded than all this hand-waving.

[slackmaster]

13. Nonsense. I've taken firearms on airplanes dozens of times.

They're not banned. The manner in which they may be carried on airplanes is regulated.

[divideandconquer]

15. There you go they are regulated by law

Ok now try to take one into a courtroom.

[slackmaster]

18. No, that's not something I want to do

I'm just pointing out the flaw in your claim that there is an outright ban.

[benEzra]

19. So? You appear to be confusing me with your imaginary "gun owner who opposes all regulations" meme.

I oppose asinine restrictions aimed at harassing responsible ownership, not all restrictions, just like the vast majority of gun owners in this country.

FWIW, your expression of your First Amendment rights is subject to law, too. That does not make them null and void, nor does it mean that any arbitrary degree of restriction is constitutional.

[AtheistCrusader]

28. I check in my CCW at the door. They put it in a safe for me. I claim it on the way out.

It's like a coat check, only better.

[Hoopla Phil]

5. You really have no idea what the constitution is for or does do you?

[derby378]

7. Fail

[benEzra]

11. The argument isn't "for gun laws" vs. "against gun laws," it's an argument about which laws.

Background checks for purchase from a dealer, restrictions on automatic weapons and guns easily convertible to full auto, the ban on armor-piercing handgun ammunition, etc. are noncontroversial and I see no one seriously trying to repeal them.

I *do* see people resisting misguided (and sometimes downright idiotic) restrictions aimed at harassing the lawful and responsible instead of addressing the actions of the criminal and irresponsible. Bans on protruding rifle handgrips and post-1861 magazine capacities fall into this category.

And with regard to the Constitution, it's the gun-control side that wants to do away with portions of the Bill of Rights...

[divideandconquer]

16. Most people aren't criminals till they pull a trigger

[benEzra]

17. Ummm, nope. Most people who commit murder have committed other crimes previously.

http://egov.cityofchicago.org/webportal/COCWebPortal/COC_EDITORIAL/March08CrimeStats.pdf

Since the beginning of the year through March, 70 percent of the murder victims had prior arrests records and 97 percent of the offenders had prior arrest records.

I can't find the end-of-year stats, but as I recall the percentage of murderers with prior arrest records was still over 80% in the last data I saw; it may have been still in the 90th percentile, I don't remember.

Murder is only rarely the first crime that someone commits, and most U.S. murders are committed in the furtherance of various criminal enterprises, often the distribution of illegal drugs.

On the other hand, the overwhelming majority of people who "pull a trigger" do so peacefully and lawfully. Americans shoot two to six billion (with a "b") rounds at shooting ranges each year...

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

21. My gosh that's stupid. Do you actually believe most criminals first crime involves a firearm?

[divideandconquer]

22. My personal experience of 5 murders of people I knew were done by people without criminal records

2 months ago, 18 year killed by law abiding gun owner for no good reason that anyone can figure. I can see that gun huggers want to turn gun crime issues into a white hat vs black hat thing, many watch too many cowboy movies.

[Euromutt]

23. Ask jgraz to explain "anecdotal evidence" to you

I'm going to assume for a moment that you don't routinely engage in criminal activity, and most likely, neither do your friends and acquaintances. It therefore follows that the most common type of homicide--criminals settling differences with other criminals--are not likely to occur in the circle of people you know. Failing to understand that the scope of your personal experience is limited, and probably not representative of overall trends, is what friendly_iconoclast has termed "But Everyone I Know Voted For McGovern!" syndrome.

See, for my part, I don't anybody who's been murdered, but incidents of gun crime that have occurred in proximity to me have all involved career criminals (the post office being robbed ten minutes before I arrived; drug dealers shooting it out on a street corner twenty minutes after I'd gone by).

This is why we have people who do research: because testimonials and anecdotes don't give you the full picture.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

24. Again, do you actually believe most criminals first crime involves a firearm?

How many of the murderers that killed your friends are in jail?

[divideandconquer]

25. Ones I've known, yes

3 in jail and one on the way. My experience with hunter types is ok, my experience with pistol owners and gun nuts is dreadful, sociopaths and generally bad people.

[PavePusher]

27. I know a number of African-Americans, none of whom are criminals.

Thus, no A-A's are criminals.

See?! It's easy!

On the flip side, I know a number of caucasians who are crooks, so they all must be, right?

Wow, life is suddenly so much easier...

[divideandconquer]

29. People don't choose their race, people choose to embrace guns

Shame on you for this dishonest comparison.

[JonQ]

14. Constitution defines what the government may not do

laws define what the people may not do.

Big difference.

[Euromutt]

20. This "argument" is a canard unto itself

I don't know how often I've heard the false analogy that, for example, since murderers don't obey the law against murder, we might as well get rid of that.

The reason it's a false analogy is that murder is one of various crimes (assault, theft, etc.) that directly results in harm to another, and is therefore generally considered to be morally wrong. There are other offenses that do not directly result in harm to another, but do increase the risk that another will be harmed, such a drunk driving or providing a firearm to a known violent criminal.

The laws that pro-RKBA types like myself object to are ones that criminalize actions that do not, in and of themselves, present a threat to others. At worst, these actions might contribute to facilitating or exacerbating the commission of an offense by one inclined to do so, but if committed by someone not inclined to unlawfully harm others, has no negative effect. Examples include carrying a firearm in a park (be it city, state or national), possessing magazines with a capacity of over 10 rounds, manufacturing a semi-automatic rifle that accepts a detachable magazine and has a muzzle flash hider, a bayonet lug and a pistol grip, etc. These kinds of laws are the equivalent of outlawing driving on the basis that bank robbers use getaway cars.

[rd_kent]

26. What a buch of flamebait SHIT. You certainly are living up to your name.

[aikoaiko]

30. Worst gun rights/gun control analogy yet.

:applause: