Study: Gun Shows Main Source Of Guns Used In Crime

[Kadie]

Sep 2, 2009 6:53 am US/Pacific
Study: Gun Shows Main Source Of Guns Used In Crime

DAVIS, Calif. (CBS13) ― A new report from UC Davis researchers finds that American gun shows are the leading source of guns used in crimes, not just in the United States, but Mexico and Canada as well.

snip...
The report shows the two-thirds of gun sales at gun shows are through licensed vendors. The others are sold through unlicensed vendors or private gun show attendees, who do not have to do background checks or file any paperwork. The study state that 85% of recovered crime guns have gone through at least one private party transaction following their initial sale by a licensed retailer.

Hidden camera pictures in the report show dozens of private party or unlicensed gun purchases where no identification is requested or shown.

The study also links gun shows with certain political activities that promote violence. It also includes some solutions to the problem including more law enforcement and more regulation of private party gun sales.

more...
http://cbs13.com/local/gun.shows.crime.2.1159216.html

Here is the report..

"What Goes On When Everybody Thinks Nobody Is Looking"
http://www.ucdmc.ucdavis.edu/vprp/

Chapter 6 of the report is about politics and gun shows.

[asdjrocky]

1. Great big duh on that one.

Now get ready to be attacked, moved or locked.

[Kadie]

4. .

:scared:

[asdjrocky]

6. It'll be ok.

I've found if I stay away from old people, white people, guns and poor people getting food then I'm ok.

Oh yeah, don't go near the cops, you're just asking for it if you do that.

[G_j]

2. 10, 9, 8....

:popcorn:

[Javaman]

59. 7,6,5...

:popcorn:

[YOY]

3. ...

:popcorn:

[1]

5. Study: bullshit...

[Hutzpa]

7. wow

:wow: thats all they told you to say(?)

[1]

9. nope. that is the result of this "study". bullshit...

[Spazito]

10. LOL!

:thumbsup:

[divideandconquer]

12. Long past time to ban gun shows

Probably a good idea to ban private sales as well, make all sales through well regulated vendors.

[slackmaster]

15. The federal government does not have the authority to ban private sales of used firearms

Only states can do that.

[Jkid]

42. Swell...

[Treo]

52. Do You Think A Total Ban On Private Sales

Do You Think A Total Ban On Private Sales Would Work As Well As, say, The Total Ban On marijuana Sales?
Criminals don't buy their guns at gun shows they buy them from a crack head who stole It from youfor 50.00$

[JonQ]

8. Seen too many false studies to accept this one at face value

will research it.

[JonQ]

14. Ok, I looked through there study

and at first glance they've provided no evidence linking these guns to crimes.

They documented many different sales by unlicensed vendors, but never linked those guns specifically to any crimes committed.

Very bad study.

[Hutzpa]

17. What(?) It took you all of 5 minutes to

read the report, really, to then report to us that you have read it.

Try again.

[JonQ]

20. I looked through their sections

all had to deal with reporting on gun show purchases, or pertinent laws.

None tracked the guns after the sale and proved this assertion.

[rhett o rick]

19. guns good, study bad, very bad.

[JonQ]

21. By the mentality of many around here

guns = bad, any study showing them in a bad light, no matter how poorly done and unscientific = good.

[rhett o rick]

24. I rest my case. nt

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

29. Guns inanimate, researchers complete morons.

[Hutzpa]

11. What took them so long

it has always been the case.

Good find though....:thumbsup:

My hope is this thread stays open for more discussion, but alas....

[rhett o rick]

22. They were digging frantically for their NRA talking points. nt

[Pangolin2]

35. Is your opinion that anyone who defends the 2nd Amendment is an NRA tool?

Because if you think that, you're really ignorant.

[G_j]

40. are you a member? nt

[Treo]

53. Yup NT

[Pangolin2]

61. No. I've owned guns for over 58 years since age 8, was never a member.

I'm thinking about joining though.

[rhett o rick]

65. Answer me this. Did the NRA support George W. Bush? John McCain? nt

[slackmaster]

13. The conclusion does not follow logically from the data, and does not agree with DoJ survey results

The study state that 85% of recovered crime guns have gone through at least one private party transaction following their initial sale by a licensed retailer.

I don't have any reason to doubt that factoid. Most people who commit violent crimes already have criminal records that make them ineligible to buy a gun from a licensed dealer. They buy them from friends, acquaintences, and family members, and from other criminals.

However, not all private-party transfers happen at gun shows.

:dunce:

Here is some contradictory data from the federal Bureau of Justice Statistics:

According to the 1997 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those possessing a gun, the source of the gun was from -

- a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%

- a retail store or pawnshop for about 12%

- family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm

K&U

:kick:

[Name removed]

16. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[benEzra]

18. SNORT. They appear to categorize any private party transaction (legal or illegal) as a "gun show"

regardless of where it occurs.

The report shows the two-thirds of gun sales at gun shows are through licensed vendors. The others are sold through unlicensed vendors or private gun show attendees, who do not have to do background checks or file any paperwork. The study state that 85% of recovered crime guns have gone through at least one private party transaction following their initial sale by a licensed retailer.

So the drug-and-gun dealer who sells stolen guns out of his trunk is a "gun show." A straw purchaser who buys a gun for a prohibited person from a gun store is a "gun show." Got it.

The actual percentage from actual gun shows is IIRC under 3%, and most gun-show sales do involve background checks.

[JonQ]

23. The scientific rigor employed

is laughable.

If they hadn't come to the conclusion that guns are evil they would have never been published and in fact would have been laughed out of any presentation they attempted to give on the subject.

[divideandconquer]

25. Why would it be laughed at?

[slackmaster]

26. As a California tax payer, I am mildly annoyed that public money was used to fund this useless POS

Our state is broke and getting more broke every day.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

28. Because it is an example of horrible scientific process. It's a joke that a grade school kid could

It's a joke that a grade school kid could pick apart.

[Statistical]

45. Really?

The study admits only 3% of guns used in crime were directly bought at a gun show.

The misleading headline comes from the fact that 85% of the guns had at least one private sale (which may or may not have happened at a gunshow).

Follow this
1) You buy a gun
2) Criminal A breaks into your house and steals the gun
3) Criminal A sells gun to Criminal B out of the trunk of his car (private sale).
4) Criminal B uses it for crime.

By the "logic" in this study that was a "gunshow gun" used in crime.

WTF?

I mean if a 9th grader used that level of logic in a science class they rightfully would fail.

[benEzra]

50. If someone did a "study" that concluded that 85% of murders are commited by "Muslims"

but defined "Muslim" for the purposes of the study as anyone with dark hair who commits a murder (regardless of religious preference or ethnic origin), don't you think that study would be laughed right out of peer review?

It's called "begging the question," and it is a logical fallacy.

Here are some numbers from the U.S. Department of Justice:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm

Offenders

According to the 1997 Survey of State Prison Inmates, among those possessing a gun, the source of the gun was from -

o a flea market or gun show for fewer than 2%
o a retail store or pawnshop for about 12%
o family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source for 80%

This "study" categorized most "family, friends, a street buy, or an illegal source" purchases as "gun show" purchases, even though almost none of them occurred at a gun show.

[Statistical]

43. Also by their "logic"

1) I buy a gun from an retail store.
2) I sell it to BenEzra.
2) Criminal steals it from BenEzra

Also by their "logic" that is a "gun show" gun despite the fact that no gun show was involved and the criminal got the firearm by STEALING IT!

In related news "100% of firearms used in crime were manufactured. 0% grew naturally from the earth". Close the "manufacturing loophole".

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

27. What a bunch of idiots, this poster said it best.

Xithras (1000+ posts) Wed Sep-02-09 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. The authors own data cites show that only 13% come from shows.
And under 10% of juvenile gun crimes follow sales originating at gun shows.

I read the first couple sections of the report, and it basically boils down to this: "It's easy to get a gun at a gun sale, so that must be where all the gun crime comes from. Although my data says that I'm wrong, and although I could only find a single high profile example of a gun show weapon being used in a major crime, I don't like the people who run them or the way they work, so I'm going to make that assertion anyway. Even though my own data shows that I'm wrong."



The funny thing is people wonder why so many foreign scientists are hired in the US when we are giving complete morons PhD's for work like this.

[onehandle]

30. Gun shows also ground zero for domestic terrorists.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

37. Mcveigh bought his explosives at a gun show?

:shrug:

Edited to add:
So one guy who happens to visit gunshows blows up a building and now gunshows are havens for domestic terrorists.
Awesome detective work there! I suppose Ryder rental trucks are the vehicle of choice for terrorists too.
Boy, I sure wouldn't wanted want to be seen in one lest I be misconstrued for a terrorist. :sarcasm:

[Dr. Strange]

41. He bought guns at a gun show.

Which proves that buying guns at a gun show causes people to become terrorists. Somehow. QED.

Now where do I get my grant money?

[onehandle]

46. He lived the last years of his life at gun shows.

This is where he his discovered his destiny.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

47. Your missing the point.

One guy who is obsessed with guns commits an act of terrorism and that is somehow justification for the thought that gun shows and gun culture are somehow an epicenters of domestic violence? Wow... good thing your not jumping to conclusions or prejudicing the situation any. I think your tinfoil hat is on just a tad too tight. :tinfoilhat:

McVeigh was fucked up long before his gun show touring days.
Read a brief biography of his sometime.

[onehandle]

49. Yes. Timothy McVeigh is the only gun show nut in history involved with domestic terrorism.

Thank you, oh wise one.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

69. oneidiot

[marmar]

31. K&R......but I see that the Gunz Gunz Gunz posse has already arrived.

nt

[YOY]

32. Anyzing negatif said about ze sakred gun ist a lie!!

n.t.

[slackmaster]

33. I suggest you read the article, then read the study, then come back and tell us...

Whether or not:

A) the article accurately reflects the conclusions of the study, and

B) the conclusions of the study follow logically from the data.

[YOY]

34. ACHTUNG!!!

Wir Scheiffen die gleiffen mit mienen waffen!!!! Und Ich kann nicht gelasen!!!

:rofl:

It's not that the article isn't accurate or inaccurate...it's your rush to

[slackmaster]

39. I attacked promptly because the article is obviously inaccurate

I have a vested interest in keeping firearms available and legal. A good chunk of my retirement savings is invested in collectable firearms.

BTW, my gun collection has outperformed all of my other investments by a wide margin.

[Euromutt]

64. Jeez, if you're going to use German...

Could you at least make sure it's correct German. I speak German, and I still don't have a clue what you're on about.

As for the so-called "rush to attack," that has a lot to do with the fact that claims about how gun shows provide criminals with firearms have been around for a long time, get repeated ad nauseam, and have zero evidence backing them up. This "study" is yet another addition to the stack of unsupported claims about how awful gun shows are.

Let's draw an analogy. We know how homophobes claim that same-sex marriage is bad, and gays shouldn't be allowed to adopt, because "studies have shown" that children do better with a mother and father. We also know they're lying through their teeth, because the studies in question found that children do better with two parents than with one, but found that the sex of either parent was immaterial.

Now let's imagine that some study comes out with a finding that children do do better in hetero households, and Fox News trumpets it as "study shows same-sex households harmful to children!" Would you have a problem with someone who wasted no time in shredding that particular study? Especially if it then turned out the researchers had to essentially ignore their own data to produce their findings?

[Pangolin2]

36. Facts are repugnant to repugnicans and gun grabbers.

So I have discovered lately.
\

[YOY]

38. ...

[benEzra]

51. Well, would YOU call a street dealer selling stolen guns out of his car trunk a "gun show"?

How about someone who takes a criminal's money to go to a gun store and illegally buy a gun for the criminal? Is he a "gun show" too?

If not, then you would have to agree that categorizing all non-FFL sales as "gun show" purchases was either an egregious oversight, or intentionally misleading.

[aikoaiko]

44. Do you mean the anti-gunz posse or the pro-gun rights posse?

:shrug:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

55. Someone has to counter the bedwetting ninnies.....

Of course I am referring to the "journalist" and "scientist", not any fine member of DU.

[aikoaiko]

48. I'm still reading this doc looking for the data that backs up the articles title

But I can't find it. Still looking and rereading through. Can the OP kindly point out in the article where the data back up this claim in the title?

I, for one, support opening up NICS to private sellers. Some clever folks in the guns forum have devised ways of doing this that maintain privacy (e.g., Such as a NICS look-up-numbers on the back of State issued IDs).

[Kadie]

54. I am still reading the report also.

Information about the 85% is located on pg 18 of chapter 1. I am currently reading that section.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

56. Magically it seems the second hand market became gun shows.

The journalist needs to be fired.

[Kadie]

58. contact info

http://cbs13.com/contact

[slackmaster]

67. Thanks. I will send a comment to the General Manager when I get a chance

:hi:

[slackmaster]

57. The table on that page gives a figure of 1.7% for crime guns being bought at gun shows

Or flea markets.

:crazy:

[X_Digger]

60. Whew! Just finished the 'study'..

No documentation of any causal link between gun shows and crime, save one example.

Boils down to "Gun shows & private transfers bad!.. and here's some nazi parephenalia, and random quotes from attendees and signs. See? We said they're bad, bad, BAD! See, we do it so much better in California, we don't have ANY gun crime. Oh wait.."

[Kadie]

62. I admire you for finishing it.

I keep having to walk away cause I get too confused. :blush:

From what I did read, it seems that there is a problem at gun shows with unlicensed sellers, however, the journalist took just a piece of the article out of context and wrote a bad headline.

Am I on the right track?

[X_Digger]

63. Basically..

.. and some of the sources the study cites? Whew, some real stinkers..

ie, the Rand Corp study for the US Air Force about security on bases that said that _grounded_ planes are at risk from 50bmg rifles (and small arms and grenades, and anti-tank arms, and RPGs, and...)- it got morphed in this 'study' to be "OMG, 50cals can bring down planes!! Oh Noes!1! I'm series!11!!"

[slackmaster]

66. The issue is not gun shows per se, it's unregulated private-party transfers of used firearms

Unregulated in most states.

The problem as I see it is that the background check system used by dealers, called NICS, by law cannot be used by anyone but a gun dealer. Even I, who have a Federal Firearms License (a collector's license, not for running a business) cannot use NICS if I want to sell a curio or relic firearm to a private individual (which is legal in California for long guns; handguns have to be transferred through a dealer).

If NICS could be made available for non-licensees, with safeguards to prevent misuse, it would be possible for someone with a used gun for sale to check up on the background of a potential buyer, without incurring the expense of processing the transfer through a dealer. (Think about how absurd it seems to someone who has an old shotgun he wants to sell for $50 to have to cough up $39 in fees as we do in California).

[Tejas]

68. well DUH, just whores for the Joyce Foundation (paid them $175,000)

The money from the Joyce Foundation was the core support, is anyone here stupid enough to think the Davis researchers would do anything BUT come up with BS?



http://www.joycefdn.org/GrantList/WorkInProgress/Joyce_Grant_List_All_041609.pdf


What a surprise. :sarcasm: