Buying a firearm as a gift ... how to know if the person is allowed to own one?

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

Long story short, my father in law seems like he's never been a fan of guns. I'm sure he has no problem with legal safe ownership of guns but things like CCW and scary looking guns seemed to get to him. He knows I'm a bit of a gun nut and is not a fan of the fact that I have so many as well a CCW (which I regularly carry). Often I don't carry over his house because, while he has not said it, I know he's not too comfortable with it.

Fast forward to present day. He's been helping ALOT around the house. We've been remodeling a few things and I'm sure saving thousands in the process with his knowhow. While we were talking he mentions he thinks he wants to get a gun for home defense. I wasn't sure if he was being sarcastic poking at my gun-nuttiness or was serious. It would be analogous to hearing Rush Limbaugh say Obama did good job on something. When I figured out he was serious I nearly shat myself.

I figured I surprise him and get him a good home defense weapon. It's the least I can do after all the work he's done. I found a great deal on a like-new Remington 870 Express with wood furniture... classic, powerful and functional. I'm picking it up today and plan on giving the shotgun and a few boxes of 00B to him when we finish.

My question is, how do I know if he's eligible to own a firearm?
I've known him for like 9 years, and think everything is OK... but can I get in trouble?
It's a gift, so certainly not a straw purchase.

[MNDemNY]

1. Simple answer: get a gift card.

[hlthe2b]

10. Guns-R-Us gift cards..... whodda thunk...

[Warpy]

2. If he's not fond of guns and gets nervous when you carry yours

I'd say find a different gift.

Just because you're a fan doesn't mean he is. Some people, myself included, just don't want the responsibility of owning a deadly weapon.

If you want to feel him out more, I'd suggest you take him to a firing range. You'll get a final answer there.

[gorfle]

29. Ding!

Yup - here's your answer. Take him to a range. If he likes it, you'll know.

[iverglas]

34. I give up

If he likes it, you'll know.

What does this have to do with anything?

Evidently the individual said something casual in passing about wanting a gun "for home defence". (Yeah, I'll bet he used that buzz phrase.)

What the hell does that have to do with liking anything?

And why wouldn't the person who heard what he said have inquired further at the time -- are you serious about this, do you want some advice, can I help at all ...

[gorfle]

39. Hooray!

I give up

At long last, iverglas the beautiful is vanquished!

If he likes it, you'll know.

What does this have to do with anything?

If you took someone shooting, you'd probably pick up a pretty good vibe as to whether or not shooting, or guns in general, was something they were comfortable with or not. If you took them to the range and they were overly timid handling the firearm, or expressed mistrust in themselves to be able to handle one, or seemed unable to safely handle a firearm, or other any other negative vibe, you could be pretty sure that owning a firearm would not be for them, for any reason.

If, on the other hand, you picked up vibes that they enjoyed shooting, that they were confident and safety-conscious with firearms, then firearm ownership might be for them.

Evidently the individual said something casual in passing about wanting a gun "for home defence". (Yeah, I'll bet he used that buzz phrase.)

This is, in fact, a common reason why people buy firearms, and I have heard this exact phrase countless times from folks at gun shows or in gun stores. I don't see why you are skeptical of this. There's really only three reasons you usually hear someone express an interest in buying a firearm: self or home defense, hunting, or target shooting.

And why wouldn't the person who heard what he said have inquired further at the time -- are you serious about this, do you want some advice, can I help at all ...

I don't know. That's what I would have done. I would have instantly recommended a 20-gage pump shotgun and gauged the response from there. But I also would have taken them to a shooting range. I did this for my brother and sister in law.

[eqfan592]

33. Did you not read the entire OP?

"While we were talking he mentions he thinks he wants to get a gun for home defense......When I figured out he was serious I nearly shat myself."

Seems like the question of if he would feel comfortable about it is past, and he's looking to own one now.

[Warpy]

41. Did you?

My advice stands. A guy who seems nervous around firearms needs to practice with one before he gets one, find out what it can do and what he can do with it.

The last thing the world needs is another gun owner who's never fired one.

[eqfan592]

42. Your advice...

...was based on the supposition that his feelings towards guns had not changed. The OP clearly stated that this would not appear to be the case anymore (otherwise why express a desire to own a firearm?), hence the question of his buying him a gun in the first place.

However, this is not to say I completely disagree with your advice. I think taking him out to shoot before buying him a firearm so he has a chance to see what type of firearm he would be comfortable with (pistol, shotgun, etc.) would be an excellent idea.

[dsc]

3. Get a dealer's licence ($35) and if you have his personal info

search him on the search thing gun dealers use.

[Statistical]

9. Really?

Please point out an application for this magic "super license".

[hlthe2b]

12. Ummm wouldn't that at least require his permission to search?

I know privacy has gone the way of the DODO bird, but I would be livid at someone who did this without my permission...:shrug:

[Statistical]

20. You are correct.

FFL can only conduct a background check with a completed and signed Form 4473.

Also obtained an FFL for purposes unrelated to its classification is a misdemeanor. In this instance unless the person intends to open and operate an establishment for the purpose of retail sales of firearms then one would need to lie on the application and break the law just to get the FFL and then break the law again by forging a 4473.

[inkool]

13. Where do I get this license?

If it only costs $35 to get a dealers license I want one.

[X_Digger]

4. All you can do is ask.

If he's given you reason to think he might not be eligible, I'd pass.

If not, and you're just being cautious, I'd ask him straight out. If you have no reason to believe that he is ineligible, and he says he's not, then you've done your due diligence.

Bottom line, if you have doubts, then don't do it.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

26. I don't believe him to have any dubious nature...

That being said, hes' been around much longer than me and people do stupid things when they're young.
Hell, with some of the stories I've heard my dad tell - I'm surprised he passed NICS for his gun purchases.

I realize that, in good faith, I'm not breaking the law and that I should be OK in Ohio.
I'm just kind of wondering if there's a way to be SURE. I guess not.
I really want it to be a surprise. I have that same feeling that I had the first time I bought a gun. :D

[inkool]

5. Check your local/state laws...

Depending on where you live you could be breaking the law by giving him a firearm even if he is not prohibited from owning one.

If your father in law is serious about wanting to get a gun I would suggest taking him out shooting first. If he is still interested after shooting get him a gift card or go to a shop with him to pick out a gun. Let the shop run the background check.

[slackmaster]

6. Unless you live in a state where private-party transfers require background checks

There is no way for you to be sure. Federal law prohibits use of the National Instant Check System by anyone other than licensed gun dealers.

You could hire a private investigator to do a background check, but it will cost at least about $120 for a minimal check. Or you could use one of the many Web services to do it yourself, but they are not all reliable and might not serve to cover you legally.

I like the gift certificate idea.

[virginia mountainman]

7. He's your father in law...

Ask your wife.. That should be enough in the eyes of the feds, now I don't know what STATE you are living in, so it could be a difference their.

As long as he is willing to learn how to use it, and would be WILLING to use it in a clutch situation the shotgun would be fine. You mentioned that he does not like "black" rifles, I would get him one with a AR15 style Pistol Grip and a Stock. They really are so much of an improvement over the traditional style. I am CERTAIN that the way that gun will handle, will "enlighten" him on proper ergonomics in a firearm, and soften his stance on them. It is amazing what a difference a pistol-gripped shotgun makes, over one with a traditional style stock

http://www.atigunstocks.com/products.aspx?category=41&page=1&id=83

[RaleighNCDUer]

23. You advise getting him the kind of gun he does NOT like?

That's nuts.

Just the kind of gift everyone wants - something they will NOT use.

[hlthe2b]

8. So you want to buy someone who is not a gun fan,a gun...

Sort of like giving someone who doesn't like pets, a dog for a gift..... don't ya think?

[Statistical]

11. Reading is fundamental.

"While we were talking he mentions he thinks he wants to get a gun for home defense"

Kinda like buying a pet for a non-pet owner who has now expressed interest in having a pet to correct your analogy a little.

[hlthe2b]

15. If he wanted a gun, he'd buy one... You can offer

But what you are suggesting--searching his private information without his permission, purchasing a gun you are not at all sure he wants, is really crossing the line, IMO.

Your insults to me, aside, if you really liked and respected the guy, I'd think you would ask him. Unless you have another,more personal objective, for the gun purchase.

[Statistical]

17. Reading the username is fundamental also.

I am not the OP.

Neither I nor the OP suggested searching private info.

You really do seem to have a problem with reading comprehension.

[hlthe2b]

21. Your rudeness is noted

Others on this thread have suggested searching the data base under false pretenses. When one responds to a thread, one can respond to the totality of comments. Very much like YOU have done, in responding to me. So exactly WHO has the reading comprehension issue (as well as some rather serious spelling difficulties)?

[Statistical]

22. "But what you are suggesting"

"But what you are suggesting--searching his private information without his permission, purchasing a gun you are not at all sure he wants, is really crossing the line, IMO."

Back pedal all you want but nobody reading the statement "But WHAT YOU ARE SUGGESTING" would think anything except what it means. You are making a statement that I suggested either of those things. I didn't and neither did the OP which I assumed was who you mistook for me.

If it was neither than you might want to learn the meaning of the word "You" before using it to apply to unrelated posts.

[hlthe2b]

24. I'm sure you can go back and do some "reding" in "funadmental"

ways. :eyes: The irony of YOU telling ME how to comprehend written word is not lost on anyone.

[hlthe2b]

40. Nice edits, Stats

a bit deceptive, however...

[izquierdista]

14. Guns as gifts

I'm sure Miss Manners has something in her archives about appropriate gift giving. How you should give a gift that the recipient wants, not what you want. Most men over the age of 5 know not to give a neat looking frog to their mother and most husbands know not to give a vacuum cleaner to their wives on their anniversary. If the intended recipient has dropped hints or has stated that he would like to purchase a specific item, then that item can be an appropriate gift. However, if the recipient has vaguely stated that he would like to buy a truck or a gun or a suit, giving a gift of a specific one deprives the recipient from purchasing exactly what he wants, which might be quite different from the one you fancy.

I'm with the poster who advised giving him a gift card. Show your appreciation by giving him something that will help him buy what HE wants.

[hlthe2b]

19. It is an "interesting" prospect, is it not?

I wonder how one would feel if that gun ended up being used by mistake to kill another and ended up ruining the recipient's life. Would the gifter feel any responsibility, any guilt? Just wondering... Yes, I know this could happen with a teen and their hunting rifle and I am not arguing against hunting... Nonetheless, it is a "gift" that I could not imagine giving to anyone. :shrug:

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

25. Regarding the gift card comments.

There have been several "gift card" comments, but your's is well written so I'm responding to yours - I'm not singling out your response ro anything. The reason a gift card won't really work is that guns in retail shops are expensive. If you don't want price-gouged, you have to go to a gun show and if you want a deal then you shop used (private sale) or buy from an online distributer.

A) I want this to be a surprise.
B) I can get him alot finer firearm buying it myself than via a gift card.

For example, I found him waht is more or less a new 12ga. pump action for $300 "out the door".
$300 in a gun shop gets you pointed to the Hi-Points, Keltecs, and .22 stuff. All poor choices.

I have been shooting with him once in the past, so he's not totally new to the experience. I think he can appreciate the usefullness of a shotgun over a handgun. More power as well as easier to aim, shoot and hit.

We did talk about different possibilities and what interests him and so forth. He's concerned about safety and things that go bump in the night. He mentioned the gun would be strictly for home defense - not carrying or recreation. He looked at a couple mossberg 500A models online w/ me and seemed to like them. Remington is, IMO, a better quality and nearly identical. If he wants the black stocks and 18" barrels they are cheap accessories. (Another reason shotguns are better than pistols - customizability.) He doesn't really know enough about guns to know to request specific guns and was asking me for advice.

[burrfoot]

45. For what it's worth...

it sounds to me like you and he have already discussed this at some length, been shooting a time or two, and even looked at some online information together. Doesn't strike me that there is any question that he has a serious interest. You want to do something nice for him, and you happen to know that he is interested in a shotgun, and you're willing to give him a good one. In my book, that's a really thoughtful idea. Those who don't support gun ownership in general may not see it that way, but personally I'd be f*^#ing thrilled if someone gave me a firearm that they knew I was interested in.

As for the background issue- I think that if your wife doesn't know of anything that would disqualify him, and perhaps if you check with her mother as well, you'll have done what is necessary to have not KNOWINGLY sold a firearm to someone who is ineligible.

Now, if the gov't would get serious about opening up NICS to public users..... }(


edit: typooooooooooo

[Statistical]

16. Short answer you don't.

Long answer check your state laws but under federal law it is a crime to KNOWINGLY transfer a firearm to a prohibited person.

You don't KNOW he is a prohibited person so you are not in violation of any federal law.
State laws vary a lot so be sure you are compliant with state law. Best place to check would be statutes themselves or Attorney Generals office. Second best place would be a state specific gun owners forum.

[doc03]

18. In my case my brother pawned a couple guns just before

Christmas and then when he went to get them back for some reason he couldn't get his own guns back. I had to go get the guns for him and was told I couldn't just hand them over to him because I knew he wasn't permitted to own a gun. My brother filed the proper paperwork with the FBI to get his name cleared way back in January. After a few weeks he got a letter from them saying they had to investigate his background before he would be permitted to purchase a gun again. Well here it is August and they still haven't got back to him on anything. I am sure I would be in trouble selling him a gun since I know he failed the check but how would a stranger know? It has been 8 months and we still don't know why he failed the check. The only reasons we can figure was the arrest for a DUI or he attended a meeting of the Mountaineer Party in WV with a friend, maybe he is a suspected terrorist for that, who knows?

[freebrew]

27. I would be uncomfortable too

if someone brought a pistol into my home without me knowing.
My wife isn't fond of 'guns' so I respect her wishes that way.
I do own several and keep them in the house(it's my house too and she respects that).

But giving one as a gift has some problems.
Like buying a car, someone may well want to try it out for himself.
He may want a 'gun', but he may also want a particular type of weapon.
Shotguns, while great for self protection have a considerable kick, especially a 12 ga.
and especially a pump.

Yet, he may like it, and good for him if he does. I wouldn't necessarily worry about the legality(did I say that?)
because he has expressed an interest, so I would take that as probably OK by the law.

I would give him a box of 8 shot though instead of 00B, jesus 00B penetrates walls and is basically overkill for home protection.
It will obliterate anything in its path. 8 shot, much more humane and won't kill someone 100 yards away.
And its a lot cheaper..

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

28. not to turn this into a technical debate...

But birdshot is for birds.
Unless the target is at the muzzle, birdshot lacks the power to penetrate bones and chest cavities.

Anything smaller than #4 buckshot will likely be inadequete for home defense.

[Statistical]

31. +1 birdshot for birds.

Per FBI test to incapacitate a human target a round must penetrate 12"-18".

Anything that can stop a man (i.e. penetrate 12"-18" through heavy clothing) by its very definition can penetrate sheetrock.

Picking rounds based on what will not penetrate sheetrock is very dangerours.

Take a smaller breed of deer. Stand him/her up on hind legs. The cross section of the chest cavity is very similar to a large man. Vital organs are in approximately same location. While hide is tougher than human skin most burglars are not naked, clothing especially winter clothing (heavier material + padding) provides comparable protection.

The idea that what is good for a deer is overkill for a man and what was designed to stop something weighing a couple pounds can stop a 200lb intruder is foolish.

[iverglas]

36. "birdshot lacks the power to penetrate bones and chest cavities"

And hell, if what you want is to get that bogeyman out of the house, the best way to do it is to penetrate their chest cavity.

Yes siree bob.

[Statistical]

37. Anything without 12"-18" pentration lacks sufficent stopping power to end a violent threat...

That is according to the FBI who did a comprehensive study on the issue.

The goal of defensive firearm use would be to end the threat as quickly as possible.
The most constant way to do that is multiple strikes that meet the FBI criteria. Even then bullets are unpredictable in terminal ballistics. Many marginal shots end up being fatal and targets have survived multiple stikes meetings the incapacitation requirements without breaking off the attack. As a general rule though well aimed shot penetrating the upper torso with 12"-18" of penetration have the greatest likelihood of ending a violent attack.

Then again what does the FBI know about firearms, ballistics, stopping power, or dealing with violent hostile individuals.

Birdshot is great if your home is being invaded by birds.

We have a lot of birds in our backyard (wife loves birdfeeders) but strangely none have tried to invade our home.
If they do I guess I will have to live with the cold reality that using buckshot on them will be more force than needed.

[freebrew]

47. Gee, I must be confused.

You're worried about giving a shotgun to someone that maybe, perhaps wouldn't be allowed to own one, but you want to give him a 12 ga. with enough power to kill an invader rather than just stop him.
8 shot(from a 12ga) has proven effective enough to stop most any criminal in his tracks. Yes, w/o penetrating the clothing.
Cops here use it for just that.

4 Buck is deadly, certainly not as powerful as 00B. I originally rec'd 8 shot because most people don't realize the power of 00B.
It WILL penetrate walls, wooden doors, steel doors. It will effectively kill at OVER 150yds.
That is not something I would want in a populated area, but to each his own as they say.

Since I live in the middle of 30 acres, it wouldn't matter. Not sure where this guy's FIL lives, but probably wouldn't want to kill his neighbor shooting at an intruder.

Just sayin'.

[michreject]

38. Well you don't want him to survive

recover and go into a different house 6 mos. from now and kill em.

I'm sure it's not his 1st bogeyman caper. Make it the last.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

43. Is the bogeyman a golfer?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

44. or maybe just one of the criminals whose deaths I routinely "glorify".

[gorfle]

30. HERE IS YOUR SOLUTION.

It just dawned on me - there is a simple solution.

Buy the firearm, and then take it down to your local dealer and let them keep it for you. Pay the $35 (or whatever) FFL background fee ahead of time, and then have your father-in-law come down to the gun store to pick it up from them. They will run the background check on him, and, if he passes, they can give him the gun.

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

32. (facepalm) Damn, why didn't I think of that! n/t

[burrfoot]

46. NICE n/t

[iverglas]

35. Why worry?? Be happy!!

One more gun owner, one more household with a gun in it. A win for you!

There's no onus on you to find out whether he's eligible to possess it.

Think how many households you could add to the list of gun-ownin' homes, just from your Xmas list.

Mental note, everyone.