Arizona moves to allow concealed guns in bars

[Curtland1015]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090628/ap_on_re_us/us_guns_in_bars

Okay, now I have no problem with people who own guns. But this is just ******* INSANE.

What the hell Arizona?

[parasim]

1. Oh yeah, that'll work out nicely. nt

[elleng]

2. WHAT is WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE?

Bars,Churches, grocery stores, libraries.

This is INSANE. NO JUDGMENT AT ALL. NO values; certainly no FAMILY VALUES.

[SteveM]

51. These proposals are nothing more than moral pissing contests...

Frankly, there have been some states and localities which have always allowed the possession of firearms in the places you list. Have you seen any problems coming from this? Remember, Virginia Tech's "gun-free zone" is a very recent development -- and was established before Cho's rampage. (No one ever accused him of being illiterate.)

Whatever the fate of these proposals, I think there will be little change in crime data where guns are involved. The Democratic Party would do well to junk the faux issue of gun control. It is more masochistic practice than policy.

[imdjh]

3. It can be dangerous to walk from the bar to the car. nt

[mike_c]

6. yeah, especially with all those armed yahoos running around....

Sheesh.

[liberal N proud]

4. Booze and Guns, OK Corral revisited?

Wild west reincarnated.

[X_Digger]

16. All states that have 'restaurant / bar' carry..

.. don't allow the carrier to drink.

Doesn't seem to be a rash of concealed carry licensees shooting up bars or restaurants.

[FreakinDJ]

5. I see a Reality Show here

Babes - Bars - and Belly Busters

Maybe they can get Paris to host the show on Fox

[rucky]

7. Next they'll pass something to change bars back to saloons.

[virgogal]

8. Maybe it's to get the smokers out.(If they're allowed in at all)

Smoking is the real danger in bars,isn't it?

[OhioChick]

9. Stupid ass idea. n/t

[givemebackmycountry]

10. That's a GREAT idea!

Hey you know what else?

I say you can bring your guns to work.
That's right to work.
Your boss will never know if your strappped.
He may think twice if you ask to leave early because your sick.

Hey!
Guns in school.
All teachers and all students should be armed at all times.

Hey!
GUNS in court.
You ain't guilty of anything YET, it's just a traffic ticket or a child support hearing.
The cops got guns and they are in the courthouse, why can't YOU have one too?

Hey!
Guns in the HOSPITAL!
Just because your getting surgery or some other invasive procedure doesn't mean you can't be packing.
Bet the nurses will be a lot more accommodating.

Hey!
Guns at the NFL game.
Especially if you are Eagle or Raider Fan.
What could possibly go wrong there?

What a EXTRA STUPID FUCKING COUNTRY WE LIVE IN!

[Historic NY]

11. fire & gasoline work too.

[TheWraith]

12. Actually this is already the case in a lot of states.

In fact almost all states allow concealed carry in restaurants that serve alcohol--Arizona's one of the few that doesn't.

[X_Digger]

14. Yup, here's the map..

This is for restaurants, but some states have both, some vary on what the distinction is between restaurant / bar.

[armyowalgreens]

13. I'm not particularly worried...

[ZombieHorde]

15. Well I guess we will see what happens.

We can debate all day about hypothetical situations, but after a year or three we will all have a pretty good idea whether or not this is a really really bad idea.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

17. Hasn't been a problem other places the law has been passed.

I guess we'll see if Arizona is any different.

David

[iverglas]

18. "what the hell is wrong with these people?"

Got a few days? ;)

The people shoving the gun militant agenda are one wing of that vast right-wing conspiracy, let us never forget.

They are provocateurs.

They are seeking to occupy all of your public spaces -- to squat on your agora, pooping out racist speech (and cartoons), playing the lament of the oppressed male person on the loudspeakers, plastering the walls with hokey statistics "proving" that women are the authors of their own economic misfortune, stringing fundamentalist banners from the trees proclaiming their victimization by those militant homosexuals, wailing through the night that they are being crushed by every special interest group under the sun ... playing on the mushy-headedness of the "liberal" while, inch by inch, they dismantle everything that "liberals" have fought to build.

Any surprise that they want to tote guns around while they're at it? Hey, you don't like me hauling my sidearm to your kid's soccer game? (Yup, they do.) You're oppressing me! I'm just exercising my rights!!!

"Rights", in the mouths of the right wing, are a club with which to bash the rest of us over the head.

This gun stuff isn't simple, you know. It's part of a whole web of stuff.

Demand the "right" to take your gun everywhere you go, because there are bogeymen out there that you need protection against. Reality is that crime rates are dropping, but what you need is the perception that bogeymen are everywhere. Once you have that -- and the whole lobbying effort to eliminate restrictions on where guns may be toted will help, because everybody will be talking about how you just need to have that gun with you in case of bogeymen -- there's a whole list of stuff you can get. Like mandatory minimum sentences and three-strikes laws ... and a bunch more people disqualified from voting ...

There is always one simple bit though: look at the faces. They will be the faces of right-wing ideologues, whether it be Horowitz and "free speech" on campus, or ... well, let's take a look:

The bill is part of a nationwide push by the National Rifle Association. Georgia passed a similar law in 2008, as did Tennessee earlier this year in becoming the 40th state to allow bar or restaurant patrons to carry guns.

"These laws are common sense," said NRA spokeswoman Rachel Parsons. "Restaurants are not immune to criminal activity. Law-abiding people — regardless of whether they're in restaurants, cars or homes — they should be able to protect themselves against criminal attack."

One of the bill's sponsors, Republican Rep. John Kavanagh, said it's about time Arizona passes such a law ...

It's all right there, isn't it?

[armyowalgreens]

19. I believe in the right to carry a firearm...does that make me part of a right-wing conspiracy?

[iverglas]

21. hmm

Did you want to step outside?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

23. Why do you want to smoke?

[armyowalgreens]

25. I don't know. Is it raining?

[armyowalgreens]

31. So you simply refuse to answer my question...

[iverglas]

34. yup

No point in losing my deposit, is there?

You could always send me a PM. If anything actually wasn't clear.

[armyowalgreens]

35. I believe your argument is that anyone who pushes for gun rights is

part of a right-wing conspiracy.

I support gun rights. Yet I'm about as far left as they come. So how does that equate into your assumptions?

[iverglas]

36. "assumptions"?

What assumptions are they? I have made no assumptions.

I know nothing about you. I do have to say, though, that my experience is that people in the US who proclaim themselves to be "far left" are not generally what we in the rest of the world would characterize that way.

I'm not interested in discussing you or anyone else who might make claims about him/herself on the internet.

[armyowalgreens]

37. ...

"The people shoving the gun militant agenda are one wing of that vast right-wing conspiracy, let us never forget.

They are provocateurs.

They are seeking to occupy all of your public spaces -- to squat on your agora, pooping out racist speech (and cartoons), playing the lament of the oppressed male person on the loudspeakers, plastering the walls with hokey statistics "proving" that women are the authors of their own economic misfortune, stringing fundamentalist banners from the trees proclaiming their victimization by those militant homosexuals, wailing through the night that they are being crushed by every special interest group under the sun ... playing on the mushy-headedness of the "liberal" while, inch by inch, they dismantle everything that "liberals" have fought to build."


^^^^Those assumptions.

You assume that people who support gun rights are racist, paranoid right-wingers. And I'm here to tell you that you are full of shit.

[iverglas]

38. you can leave out the "gun rights" demagoguery

Guns don't have rights.

You assume that people who support gun rights are racist, paranoid right-wingers.

Isn't it too fucking bad that I didn't even SAY what you're putting in my mouth?

I said nothing about anybody being "paranoid".

I actually made it very clear that those who work at spreading the idea that the world is dangerous and you need gunz to protect you from it do not believe that any more than I do.

I love it when somebody tries to dress me up like a stereotype.

And nope, I stereotyped no one. A gun militant is a gun militant. Their choice.


And I'm here to tell you that you are full of shit.

Wow. I'm convinced.

[armyowalgreens]

40. oooooh I get it...

You didn't make any attempts to connect the passage of this bill with right-wing racist militants. No you absolutely did no such thing.


Wait a minute...

No, no you definitely did.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

42. I like you. Nothing like a straight shooter.

[iverglas]

43. There we go!

You didn't make any attempts to connect the passage of this bill with right-wing racist militants. No you absolutely did no such thing.

The very hallmark of the very people I'm talking about.

I say one thing, and you pretend to think I said something completely different ... because, evidently, you think there is someone in the vicinity who is stupid enough to believe what you're saying.

(We all know there will always be many who are dishonest enough to say they do, I know that part already.)


Now, let's you try again. The very brief exchange went like this:

you: You assume that people who support gun rights are racist, paranoid right-wingers.

me: Isn't it too fucking bad that I didn't even SAY what you're putting in my mouth?
I said nothing about anybody being "paranoid".


I very definitely did say that gun militants are racist right-wingers. And misogynist bigots, too.

I very definitely DID NOT SAY that they are paranoid.

And I said nothing whatsoever about "people who support gun rights", because I'm not a demagogue.


I do hope this has clarified your thinking.

[armyowalgreens]

44. What is your definition of "gun militants"?

This should help "clear" everything up...

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

45. Here comes the double speak. Here is my guess just to get it on the record.

Racist, paranoid right-wingers who support gun rights.

David

[armyowalgreens]

47. I'm still waiting for your response to my question what is your definition of "gun militants"...

[iverglas]

48. I'm still waiting for you

to retract your obnoxious demands and misrepresentations and speak to me in a civil manner.

I guess we're both destined to be disappointed, eh?

Google could solve your problem. I mean, answer your question. Not likely solve your problem.

[armyowalgreens]

50. I don't want googles response. I want your response...

I am trying to clear things up. If you want me to properly understand your argument, I need to know your definition of "gun militant". It could be the reason why I "misrepresented" your stance.

[gorfle]

60. Oh I'm so misunderstood!

I say one thing, and you pretend to think I said something completely different ... because, evidently, you think there is someone in the vicinity who is stupid enough to believe what you're saying.

No, it's because everyone sees through your moderator-proofed insinuating bullshit, Iverglas.

Nobody falls for this shit. Give up.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

41. This is where she says she didn't imply or say anything that you thought she said or implied.

She will then often treat you like you are stupid to think she implied any of the things that she clearly implied. It should be noted that she is a lawyer and a Canadian, not that there is anything wrong with that.

David

[gorfle]

59. Me too.

Wow. I'm convinced.

That makes two of us.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

39. You figured that out fast. Good job.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

22. So 41 states now and still no widespread problems. Thanks for pointing that out.

[iverglas]

24. huh

Quelle surprise, Davey failing to understand ... uh, address ... uh ... oh, you know. The point.

Nothing to see there.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

28. Did you want to make some other point?

[SteveM]

52. We are progressives and we are armed. You can't change that (nt)

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

20. CCW Permit Holder Stops Mass Murder In Progress (In a bar)

Three Men Killed in Winnemucca Shooting on Sunday

Deputies with the Humboldt County Sheriff's Office are investigating a shooting in Winnemucca early Sunday morning that left three people dead and others injured.

The shooting happened at the Player's Bar & Grill on South Grass Valley Road.

Investigators say a feud between two local families is behind the early-morning shooting inside the bar. Three men from Winnemucca died from gunshot wounds, and two others are in critical condition at the hospital.

Deputies say about 2:25 a.m., 30-year-old Ernesto Villa Gomez walked into the bar and starting shooting. 20-year-old Jose Torres and his 19-year-old brother Margarito Torres were killed. When Villa Gomez was reloading his semi-automatic gun, a man from Reno took out a gun and shot Villa Gomez. That man has a concealed weapons permit.

http://www.ktvn.com/Global/story.asp?S=8378732

Maybe not so insane.

David

[iverglas]

26. and the count has begun!

To the dungeon, so that no dissenting voices may be heard, because no reasonable person wants to follow anything down that particular pipe.

Well, other than the easily amused.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

29. I doubt any reasonable person has alerted on it yet.

[FunkyLeprechaun]

46. If the police had arrived to the scene

How would they have known this guy was a "law abiding citizen" with a CCW? In fact, it would be pretty difficult to distinguish between the criminal and the CCW holder in this case.

The guy was incredibly stupid. The opportunity to disarm the criminal was there (jumping on him) and he would have gotten killed by the police thinking that he was the shooter.

You may think it's not so insane but you have to put your views aside and look at it another way.

[friendly_iconoclast]

49. He was supposed to jump on a guy that had just *shot* two people?

Why? Seems had a reasonable fear for his life.

[FunkyLeprechaun]

56. Did you read the part where he paused to reload?

I guess not.

[X_Digger]

57. Semi-automatic pistol..

.. You have three seconds. Can you cross a room full of tables, chairs, and screaming people and tackle someone in three seconds?

[Blue-Jay]

27. Drunks with guns: What could possibly go wrong?

[aikoaiko]

30. A lot of states already allow this with no adverse effect.

All the statutes that I know that allow CCW in a bar also require the person carrying to not consume alcohol at all. Not merely not be legally drunk -- not consume at all. That's pretty stringent.

Contrary to the grand right wing conspiracy theory, this Democratic gun owner supports laws like this.

[democracy1st]

32. wow

[SteveM]

53. See #14 above, please (nt)

[Vektor]

33. Shit! Am I too late?

For this?

:popcorn:

[SteveM]

54. Probably. See #14 above. Like, more fear. wow. far out. munch (nt)

[spin]

55. Here's a map of the states that currently allow CCW in a restaurant...

I have to admit, I get so tired of the anti-gun group constantly saying, "The sky is falling, the sky is falling."

[gorfle]

58. I'm pro-firearm and I agree.

I have no problem with CCW in restaurants that happen to serve alcohol.

But the only reason you go into a bar is to drink. Yes, you might be the rare designated driver, but still, the bottom line is 99% of the people who go into bars are going into bars to drink, and drinking impairs your mental judgment.

Firearms and alcohol do not mix. Bad law proposal.