Grisly murder aboard Greyhound bus in Canada

[Tim01]

For you guys who are not from Virginia, or don't know about it, there is a guy in Norfolk who keeps getting arrested for open carrying his pistol. Totally legal to open carry. But the cops keep arresting him, and he has been paid for his trouble at least once I know of. Since he is just about the only black guy open carrying, and the only person getting harassed, I have my suspicions. But one of these incidents occurred on a Norfolk city bus.

"So why would anybody need a gun on a bus anyway."

HOLY CRAP!!! This is kind of old, I just happened across it because of the bus thing.

I think I'd rather open carry on a Norfolk bus than be unarmed on a Canadian bus.



A grisly attack occured aboard a Greyhound bus bound for Winnipeg, Manitoba on Wednesday night. A man reportedly attacked the passenger sleeping next to him, calmly stabbing him 40 or 50 times before decapitating him, displaying the head to horrified passengers and disembowelling his victim.

http://www.welt.de/english-news/article2269998/Grisly-murder-aboard-Greyhound-bus-in-Canada.html

[Orrex]

1. Greyhound buses are private property, are they not?

And if that's the case, isn't it up to Greyhound whether or not you can carry a weapon on their property?

Here's a bit from their website:

On Board Restrictions
For everyone's safety and comfort, Greyhound asks that customers please follow certain restrictions while on board. Federal law does not permit smoking on Greyhound buses. We have a zero tolerance for alcohol, drugs, weapons and unruly behavior. (emphasis original)

from http://www.greyhound.com/home/en/TicketsAndTravel/TravelingByBus.aspx

[Tim01]

5. Ah, I see what you are saying. I would conceal.

If I was found out they would have the legal right to ask me to leave the bus for violating their rules. I could live with that.

[iverglas]

17. ah, nothing like the respectful gun toter

How's about if I move into your basement? As long as you don't know I'm there, I guess I'm not interfering in your right to control the use of your own property.

[Statistical]

24. If that was the law for unlawful entry then you could do that.

Of course it isn't and it is a strawman.

In most states, VA included there is no law prohibiting carrying a weapon (open or concealed) onto private property.

Of course private property owner can ask you to leave FOR ANY REASON for a gun or otherwise and if you don't then at that point you broke the law.

So unlike your "example" nothing Tim described was illegal.

[Orrex]

35. Out of curiosity, if the bus driver asked if you were carrying, what would you say?

By extension, if you walked over to your friend's house, and he said "don't come in if you're carrying," what would you do?


Not trying to sound snarky. I'm actually interested in the interplay between rights-in-public-spaces vs. rights-in-private-spaces.

[Orrex]

20. In 92, the GH bus I was riding was searched by dogs at the Mephis station

No indication that there was any credible threat or just cause, but I recall the dogs' handler warning us that if we had "anything illegal" hidden in our bags, we'd better tell him.

I didn't have anything illegal, hidden or otherwise, but it struck me as a weird situation.

[iverglas]

16. the last time I took a late-night intercity bus in Ontario

I was scanned with a metal detector and had my baggage searched. For some reason, they allowed me to keep my knitting needles ...

Yes. The likelihood of Greyhound anywhere on the continent allowing firearms on their buses is, uh, slim.

In this particular case, the victim was dead or irrevocably dying before anyone realized what was happening, in any event.

[rurallib]

2. I think that was last year

the article says Aug. 1, 2008

[liberal N proud]

3. They shouldn't allow Grislys on the bus

Cold, I know but I couldn't resist.

This is going to happen the more conceal and carry is allowed.

[X_Digger]

7. More stabbings on buses because of CCW? n/t

[liberal N proud]

9. It's the grislys that I am worried about

[X_Digger]

10. True.. and they always take up two seats! n/t

[Tim01]

11. Conceald carry is allowed all over the country now with no bad effects.

There is no need to try to predict what the effect will be, we are already there. There is no blood in the streets.
Just go down to the street corner and look around. That is what an armed society looks like.

No change.

[booley]

4. Not sure a gun would help

Besides that the above poster has it correct (Greyhounds are private property and thus up to the company to decide if guns can be carried), there is another possible flaw.

I don't think the victim could have been helped since he obviously was taken by surprise.

The other riders seem unlikely to have been helped. Besides that the attack apparently happened so quickly they couldn't stop it, Grey Hound Busses are not that large. And people were panicking. Firing into a bus full of panicked people would seem to have only made it worse.

The only person I can think who would have benefited would be the killer who could have killed more people much more quickly.

Just not sure a gun would have helped.

[Tim01]

6. Seriously, If I was on the bus I would have shot the badguy.

If I shot him fast the victim might live. I wouldn't stand there and watch as he decapitated the victim.
Victim might not make it anyway though.

If I was the one he attacked while I was asleep, I would probably just be dead.

[lapfog_1]

13. The first stab wound was fatal,

according to an autopsy I read last year.

Anyone shooting the attacker would not have saved the young man that was killed.

Body amour might have saved him. But wearing it all the time is kinda uncomfortable.

Had you been there with your gun handy, you might have shot the attacker after the first half dozen stab wounds. (It was late, the bus was dark, most people were sleeping, and the commotion that was started would have taken you a few seconds... at least 10 or so... to figure out what was going on). Of course, the other issue is that the bus is a crowded and confined space. Even if you shoot the guy (and never miss), there is a good chance (depending on the ammo that you use) of hitting someone else on the bus. There would have also been the chance that the attacker grabs another victim to use as a shield, even should you manage to shoot the guy. Given his mental framework, had he grabbed someone else, they would likely have been killed as well.

[Tim01]

21. Ok, very reasonable.

Victim is dead with first cut. But, as soon as everybody realizes what is going on, every single person on that bus is going to run as far away from the nutcase as possible. That would leave the nutcase and the guy with the gun mostly alone in the back of the bus, or where ever it is. With the nutcase going about his business of decapitating and gutting the victim. I wouldn't let him continue just because I figured the victim was dead anyway.I'd shoot him from about 3 feet. There is just something wrong about standing there with a gun and letting one person dismember another on a bus.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lapfog_1]

26. They were seated in the middle of the bus

and the panicking passengers were all trying to crowd past the attacker (who was stabbing the victim dozens of times now) to get to the front where the door was already open. I believe that ALL the passengers exited the bus through the front door.

Of course, after they all left, you could stand up and shoot the guy... but it wouldn't have resulted in any different result other than the attacker being dead instead of captured.

[Tim01]

27. True enough.

But if there were grizzlies on the bus too............
j/k

[iverglas]

18. love those gunhead fantasies

Too bad yours has nothing to do with this particular reality.

No one watched while he decapitated his victim.

By the time anyone realized what was happening -- it was a dark bus in the middle of the prairie and people were sleeping -- the victim was beyond help. Several passengers conducted themselves admirably in getting other passengers off the bus and keeping the crazed killer inside the bus. It was during that time, when he was alone with the deceased victim, that he desecrated the body.

But don't let that stop you dreaming of what might some day happen ...

[Tim01]

22. See, reality is a guy on a bus killing people with a knife.

:grouphug:

[Taitertots]

29. Gunhead fantasies LOL

You know what they say about bringing a knife to a gunfight.

Anyone armed could have shot that man in seconds. Then even if the victim died at least his family could be spared knowing their loved one was horribly mutilated.

[Tim01]

30. Yeah, and I kind of like the term gunhead.

It kind of suggests a knowledge of guns. Like a gear head. "Got a question about firearms? Ask a gunhead."

"Hey gunhead, is a .45 better than a 9mm?" Uh oh.

I wonder if I can just claim the title gunhead for myself, or if I have to share it? Maybe a vote?

[lapfog_1]

8. If you read the details of that case

the man that was murdered would not have survived had he had a gun.

Nor could any other passenger on that bus have saved him if they had guns.

About the only thing that might have been different is that the attacker might have killed right away instead of everyone fleeing the bus and police arresting the attacker later, but only if someone else was armed and reacted in a cool and collected manor to the incident. Still wouldn't have saved the victim.

The attacker was clearly had some mental health issues. He didn't know the victim, nor, according to witness reports, had either man interacted in any way with the other. No arguments, no discussion, no nothing. The victim was asleep at the time of the attack.

I'm all in favor of people using whatever means required to stop an attack on themselves or others... but this isn't a great example of how having an armed populace would have saved someone's life. Or made the outcome all that different.

[AtheistCrusader]

14. Curious how you could know that.

The first stab or two didn't seem to be immediately lethal, as the victim was screaming. If you're screaming, you have an airway, and are alive.

Not saying someone with a concealed weapon WOULD have saved him, possibly not, but I don't see a basis for 'could not have saved him'. At the least, he would have been seriously injured, but possibly could have been saved.

Possibly not. Doesn't seem like something that can be known for certain one way or another.

[lapfog_1]

15. I don't know how the CSI folks do everything they do.

Something about blood splatters and eyewitness accounts, but the first stab wound hit something vital (I only read that it was fatal, not whether it hit an artery or heart or whatever).

This case is almost a year old and there were many reports on it when it happened. Probably because of the bizarre nature of the attack.

Anyway, I'll take the word of the autopsy report and the CSI folks that the first wound was fatal.

In any event, even if you and your weapon were on that bus, you aren't that fast to shoot the guy after only 1 stab with his knife. It was dark, he was stabbing someone right next to him, hidden from the potential you by seats and other passengers. Just getting a clear shot at him would have been problematic (unless you just don't care about shooting everyone in your way... including the victim he was attacking).

[AtheistCrusader]

19. In fairness

Had I been there, and had I been armed (translation: breaking the law in Canada, but we'll ignore that), my first inclination at the start of a scuffle at the back of the bus wouldn't lead me to draw my pistol at all.

I would be more likely to physically intervene, possibly in an investigative manner, not knowing (as you say, in the dark, assailant huddled over the victim) exactly what was happening. Screaming witnesses only compound the problem.


Arterial wounds can sometimes be suppressed, but now that you mention it, I think I saw the same report, and the odds certainly didn't look good.

[lapfog_1]

25. right

an arterial wound on an arm or leg is survivable (tournaquet, quick action, etc). Deep wounds that nick an artery in the thorax or the heart, or a neck wound that cuts an artery... you'd better be minutes from a trauma center and have a someone who knows what they are doing (army medic recently returned from Iraq, with his bag!) handy at the scene.

And then it's dicey.

And you are right, it would take 10 to 20 seconds to figure out what the hell is going on. And by then, the attacker would have done a lot of damage.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

31. It may have been the fatal wound it clearly wasn't immediately fatal.

If he was stabbed 50 times and everyone else was asleep how did they determine which stab wound occured first. This much I can assure you of, the decapitation was also a fatal wound.

David

[HeresyLives]

12. One bizarre case in 142 years.

Hardly a reason for people to carry guns.

You cannot walk around armed with a gun in Canada, personal property or not. This man had a fishing/hunting knife on him and suddenly went berserk. He didn't even know the man he killed.

It's a case of mental illness, not a robbery, or a fight or anything else.

[Tejas]

28. dozens of GRISLY cases every month

Google is your friend.

[HeresyLives]

32. Not in Canada.

Grizzly bears, yes. :)

[Tejas]

33. Nancy Michaud

[Orrex]

36. They let them ride the bus?

Canucks are even weirder than we've been led to believe!

[Hoopla Phil]

34. I say. What an unusual thing to happen in that peaceful suburb of Canada.