Museum shooter had a 30-30 at his home

[gorfle]

James von Brunn, the skinhead wacko who shot up the Holocaust Museum with a .22 rifle, had a 30-30 rifle and ammunition at his home, police say:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/06/18/museum.shooting.porn/index.html

Interesting that he chose a .22 over the 30-30.

[RaleighNCDUer]

1. Easier to conceal -

holding it down along the body the .22 was less noticeable than a 30-30 would be - and he did successfully get inside before it was noticed.

[Statistical]

2. Still it is insane.

I mean saw down the barrel.
Who cares about NFA violations if you are planning on killing people.

[gorfle]

3. I still think he was making a statement.

I think there is some special reason he chose the .22. Either it has some personal meaning to him or he purposefully did not want to throw more fuel on the "ban assault weapons" fire.

[Howzit]

8. Special reason

22 divides into 88?

[OneTenthofOnePercent]

4. .30-30 rifles typically have tube magazines.

Cutting the weapon short would require a decent amount of work to the mag.

IMO, an 1894 Winchester is a pretty copact small rifle.

[RamboLiberal]

5. Small correction - I believe from all reports it was a 1906 Winchester n/t

[lib2DaBone]

6. Shots from Security Guards killed their own guy.. not Von Brunn's .22

I'm starting to hear reports that the Security Guards at the Holocaust Museum went into a frenzy.. they sprayed over 40 shots around the museum. I heard that the Guard killed was hit by a 9mm, not a .22 as reported by the media.

Sorry. no link yet but I'm working on it.

This may be more conspiracy garbage.. but think about it.... Von Brunn would have to be a hell of a shot to kill a guy with a .22?

He would almost have to have a direct hit over the heart or maybe in the temple for a kill shot.

Why would you take a .22 into a combat situation? Maybe it was a "Death-By-Cop" wish or something.. after all Von Brunn is 88 and not in the best health.

Anyway.. (SJDLR) Something just doesn't look right with this story.

[RamboLiberal]

7. News Reports I read were the guards carried .38 revolvers

not 9mm semi-autos. Von Brunn took the .22 cause it was the easiest for him to conceal and perhaps because it was as pump action he thought he had better chance for more shots & more capacity in the tube. Those were the only 2 guns he had. The 30-30 may have been a bolt action or it was not concealable.

.22 can kill. One would've thought that autopsy of the guard would show whose shot killed him.

I'd like to see the info you get on this.

On edit I just saw a photo (couldn't get copy) of museum guards at funeral this morning - looks like they are carrying .38 revolvers.

To spray 40 shots there had to be 7 guards shooting. From what I've read only 2 guards fired back. If they have revolvers and they emptied their weapons that's only 12 shots for majority of .38 revolvers.

[Statistical]

9. Yeah nothing (yet) other than conspiracy junk to indicate the guard died from anything but the .22.

I remember reading more people die from .22 than any other caliber.
Mainly because it is so common.

[happyslug]

16. Bullet size of 38 Special is .356, 9mm is .355

The error rate exceeds the difference in size. Now the rounds are NOT interchangeable but the bullets are to a limited degree (Now 9mm barrels are designed for light bullet i.e. 115-124 grain as opposed to the 158 grains for the 38 special, and 38 Special barrels are designed for the 158 grain bullet. Now there is some difficulty is establishing the bullet given the different bullet weights but as a whole the bullets themselves are interchangeable.

Now starting in the 1960s people started to use lighter bullets in their 38 special i.e. 110 grain bullets so light 9mm type bullets can be used in 38 specials. Remington is even 147 grain bullets in 9mm (A little heavy for the most 9mm pistols being automatics). It is easier to use different weight bullets in a Revolver then an automatic thus it is easier to use light 9mm type bullets in a 38 special then heavy 38 special bullets in 9mm pistols.

Remington 38 Special Specs:
http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/results/default.aspx?type=pistol&cal=10

9mm Remington Specs:
http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/ballistics/results/default.aspx?type=pistol&cal=6

[RaleighNCDUer]

11. Soldiers have been carrying .22s into combat for decades -

the M16/AR15 chambers a .223 round.

[X_Digger]

12. Same diameter, sure, lots different in power..

[Statistical]

15. 5.56mm is not the same as .22LR.

.38, .380auto, 9mm are all the same diameter but have vastly different ballistics.

The 22LR is 15mm in length.
The 5.56mm is 45mm in length.

The round is roughly 50% longer & heavier and it backed up by about 3x the gunpowder.

[Howzit]

17. 3 X the powder? More like 12 X

Look at the case volume. The ratio is much greater than 3, and has to be to achieve the 12 X ratio in kinetic energy.

Your point is that although the .22 LR is the same diameter as the 5.56 mm NATO, that is where the similarity ends.

[one-eyed fat man]

10. Think about the noise

A .22 in a crowded area may not get figured for a gunshot. How many "ear-witnesses" testified to hearing a popping, THEN gunfire from the guards?

The tube magazine of 1894 Winchester carbine has 7 shots, but there is no almost no mistaking the blast from a .30-30 for anything but a gunshot.

My great uncle used .22 shorts, even more "anemic" than .22 long rifle to kill hogs and steers for slaughter for the better part of 60 years. He'd stick the muzzle almost in the ear, pull the trigger and they went down like they had been hammered by Thor.

It all comes down to shot placement. A .22 to the medulla will cause death immediately whereas a .458 Win mag that misses, the best you can hope for soiled laundry.

[gorfle]

13. No doubt.

There is no doubt that .22LR can be lethal, but there's a reason why troops don't use them - they are anemic.

It's possible that stealth was part of his plan, but I would think once you start shooting people things are going to devolve into chaos pretty quickly.

[RamboLiberal]

18. Invalid post

[TheWraith]

14. Picking the .22 over the 30-30 just rounds out his plan.

It's about as smart and sane as, well, the entire rest of his life. :eyes: