Three college professors favor concealed carry on campus...

[spin]

Mass public shootings are a horrific feature of modern life. Many of the bloodiest examples of this scourge have occurred on college campuses. As professors, we are particularly sensitive to this danger.

Despite this – no, because of this – we support a bill currently pending in the Texas Legislature that would permit the concealed carrying of firearms on college and university campuses in the state by holders of concealed-handgun permits.

******snip*****

If gun bans truly reduced the risk of mass public shootings, then gun-free zones would be refuges from such havoc. Sadly, the exact opposite is true. All multiple-victim public shootings in the United States with more than three fatalities have occurred where concealed handguns are prohibited. Moreover, the worst primary and secondary school shootings have occurred in Europe, despite its draconian gun laws.

******snip******

These facts should not be surprising. Gun-free zones are magnets for killers bent on maximizing their body count. They know that they face far less risk of quickly being stopped there. There are numerous cases in which private firearm owners have disarmed or disabled those attempting to murder indiscriminately in public places.
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/opinion/viewpoints/stories/DN-liebowitz_23edi.State.Edition1.205ac09.html

[Sarah Ibarruri]

1. Are they being paid by the NRA? I'll bet they are nt

[X_Digger]

2. Yes, evil boogeymen behind every door..

Much easier to blame the boogeyman than address why someone might feel a certain way. *sigh*

[Tim01]

3. I understand what you are saying.

But some people are just crazy, or evil. They can't be reasoned with or fixed. They can only be stopped.

[X_Digger]

5. Oh I agree..

.. it just chaps my backside when someone sees an 'evil corporate conspiracy' behind any opinion they don't like.

"That can't be the way they really think, they're being PAID to say that."

which is usually followed by

"They're listening to the paranoid {something-or-other}."

Rather than address why someone might feel that way, it lets them completely dismiss the opinion from critical thought.

I'm for concealed carry on campus, and I'd be happy to debate the merits with anybody- but BS like the above is not debate, it's dismissive claptrap.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

12. Well, I don't know of other lobbies for the gun industry/corporations. Just the NRA lobby. nt

[X_Digger]

20. Your honor, may I present plantiff's Exhibit A

"Boogeyman behind the door."

[paulsby]

22. the NRA is a civil rights advocacy group

just like NARAL, ACLU, etc.

do you claim that NARAL is a "lobby" for the "abortion industry/doctors?"

same "logic"

[Sarah Ibarruri]

24. No, but one defends the right of women to control their own bodies....

The other defends the right of people to have a weapon to deny others' life.

[paulsby]

29. not really

one supports the right of women to control their own bodies in relation to the growth of fetuses.

i am not aware that naral supports for example, across the board drug legalization, for instnace, or the right to sell one's own organs on the market, or the right to sell sex for money (prostitution) all of which fall under the right to control one's own body.

and the NRA supports the right to carry. they do not support it for the purpose of denying another's life.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

37. Groups are topic-specific. NARAL is about protecting women's freedom to own their own body

with respect to birth control. We are born with bodies and need to have the right to own them.

I don't know anyone born with a gun in their hand.

[paulsby]

38. thanks for conceding my point

NARAL is *not* about a woman's right to control her own body.

they are for a woman's right to control her own body vis a vis abortion.

last i checked, they do not advocate for legalizing prostitution, legalizing all drugs, or legalizing the sale of organs.

the NRA otoh concentrates on the civil right to bear arms. that is a right, a civil right, of self-defense , recognized by our constitution. orf

i don't know anybody born with a speculum or evacuation tube in their hands, yet NARAL supports choice.

see the parallel.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

39. Okay, but how does that relate to guns? The body is the essential instrument of life....

We aren't born with a gun in our hand, don't require guns to live, and guns, in fact, are used to separate people from life.

[NewMoonTherian]

51. There are many things we aren't born with...

but that are still among our essential freedoms. That said, let's apply your logic across the board.

- We are all born with bodies.
- Those bodies are vulnerable to being destroyed, and we have a basic right to preserve them.
- Many people lack the ability to protect their bodies, using only the tools they were born with.
- Guns, coupled with training, enhance a person's ability to defend himself/herself.

[paulsby]

56. correct

the right to keep and bear arms is an extension of the right to self defense.

we aren't born with guns attached to our bodies.

we are also not born with the internet attached to our bodies, but we can still use it as a way to express speech.

we aren't born with pr0n movies running in our head, but we have the right to produce and watch them.

both fall under freedom of speech.

[one-eyed fat man]

63. Cain killed Abel without a gun

and it's been downhill from there. You think a 6 foot 5, 250 pound thug on PCP might not be able to separate a 115 pound woman from her virtue and her life with his bare hands?

You think a woman raped and dead in an alley strangled with her own panty-hose is morally superior to a woman explaining to the police how her attacker came to suffer a fatal gunshot wound?

Don't tell me if you are too weak to fight or too old to run you're just supposed to lay back and enjoy it?

[spin]

77. What you mention involves "disparity of force"...

Here's an interesting article by Massad Ayoob I came across:

Review the above. Six women. Four rapes prevented. Six very possible murders prevented. Four dead attackers, and two crippled for life as a result of their own vicious misadventure. Only one of these six women criminally charged, and she, finally acquitted. There are lessons here.

Note, for example, that four of these six women were ruled justifiable in shooting their attackers even though the men they shot turned out to be unarmed. The principle is called “disparity of force.” The law understands that when a male violently attacks a female, even with just his bare hands, the likelihood of him inflicting death or crippling injury is so great that she is justified in using a lethal weapon against him in self-defense.
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles/ayoob65.html

[pipoman]

44. Is it really so far from the realm of possibility

for you to understand (not agree with) the position that what we have been doing isn't helping, schools and other 'gun free zones' are most often the target of these mass murderers, maybe we should allow people who we have already licensed and who are among the least likely to commit crime to carry in some of these gun free zones?

Why must it ALWAYS be some evil conspiracy and not well meaning, thinking people looking for solutions or at least attempting to treat the symptoms?

[rl6214]

64. GOA- Gun owners of America for one.

[virginia mountainman]

7. Yea, like "gun free zones" tend to be free fire zones...

[oneshooter]

43. Not "Free Fire Zones"

More like "Target Rich Environments".
You speak of "kids" in collage. How about Veterans using their benefits, people returning to collage, those who work there( meaning maintenance, cooks, librarians, janitors. They are not kids, they are adults doing a responsible job, why aren't they allowed to defend themselves. After all most are there later than the students, many leaving in the late hours of the night.

Oneshooter
Livin in Texas

[spin]

8. Sure, just like the NRA pays pro-gun people to post on DU.

(':sarcasm:')

[BigBluenoser]

9. I'm a pro-RKBA prof and the NRA...

Don't pay me a damn thing. Texas is hopefully going to allow CHL on campus in the near future and I support this 100%.

[paulsby]

21. just like every choice advocate

is a paid shill for NARAL.

same "logic"

[Caliman73]

48. Why us ut that when someone expresses an opinion based at the very least in some fact...

All of a sudden they are paid off by some lobby? When President Obama says the AWB "makes sense" we do not say that he is being bought off by the Brady Center. We question his ideas and attempt to poke holes in his argument. These professors laid out their argument. If you find fault with it, then argue against it. Show us and them the error of their position. Don't just claim that they are bought off and then walk away thinking that you said something meaningful.

[Wetzelbill]

4. I think qualified professors should be able to

They're typically the targets in these instances. I don't think it should be the easiest thing in the world for somebody to qualify to carry a concealed weapon or anything, but I do believe that in a place like a school a professor who has gotten a permit should be able to do so.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

13. It's the most ridiculous thing - the U.S.' solution to gun killings is to spread more guns around nt

[Wetzelbill]

14. I didn't say spread them around like candy

On my school campus almost seven years ago a nursing student shot and murdered three professors, they didn't even have a chance to defend themselves. I was on campus less than an hour after it happened, it's not a good feeling. I believe that a professor who is trained well and has a permit to carry a concealed weapon should be able to carry one. I don't believe that you should have a campus where thousands and thousands of people should all be slinging them around.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

15. Problem is, they're as easy to buy as candy

Another thing - police know perfectly well the problem with the ease of buying guns in the U.S., as do doctors, and anyone that has to deal with the non-stop gun killings in the U.S.

[Wetzelbill]

16. well yeah of course

[X_Digger]

18. Disingenuous at best..

To purchase a handgun-
-Must be 21 years old
-Must Pass NICS Check (not be a prohibited person) The following people are prohibited:
--Anyone who has been convicted in a federal court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year, excluding crimes of imprisonment that are related to the regulation of business practices.
--Anyone who has been convicted in a state court of a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding 2 years, excluding crimes of imprisonment that are related to the regulation of business practices.
--Anyone who is a fugitive from justice.
--Anyone who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance.
--Anyone who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to a mental institution.
--Any alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States or an alien admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa.
--Anyone who has been discharged from the US Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions.
--Anyone who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his or her citizenship.
--Anyone that is subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner.
--Anyone who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence (added in 1996). (See the Lautenberg Amendment.)

To get a concealed carry license (in TX):
-Must be at least 21, unless active duty or honorable discharged from the military, then at least 18
-Must not ever have been convicted of a FELONY
-Must not be currently charged with a Class A or Class B MISDEMEANOR or FELONY
-Must not be chemically dependant, including alcohol
-Must be capable of exercising sound judgment
-Must not have been convicted of a Class A or Class B misdemeanor, or a disorderly conduct in the past 5 years
-Must be fully qualified under federal and state laws to purchase a handgun
-Must not be delinquent in any payments to the state of Texas, including child support, taxes, and Texas Guaranteed Student Loans
-Must not be restricted by a protective or restraining order involving a person
-Must not have been prosecuted for a felony grade juvenile delinquent conduct in the previous 10 years
-Must attend 10 hours of training from Texas approved instructor
-Must demonstrate proficiency with handgun
-Must be fingerprinted


Right, easy as candy.

[paulsby]

23. no, we don't

i am a police officer. the problem is not the ease of buying guns. the problem is criminal assmunches.

most COPS (not police chiefs and other cop-o-crats)_ support CCW.

and i work in WA state.

we HAVE concealed carry (and open carry) ,to include legal carry on college campuses here, like the UW

i'm still waiting for the carnage from all those evil guns

[Sarah Ibarruri]

25. You're an unusual cop. Most cops down here do not making it easy to buy and own guns

On the other hand, I live in a place where there's lots of crime. (And lots of crime means lots of gun crime).

[paulsby]

27. do you know this personally?

iow, have you talked to many cops about this? i've probably spoken with several hundred about CCW since i teach firearms instruction TO cops and have been a cop for 20 yrs.

many people assume that cops support a law because they are enforcing it, or because some cop-o-crat (police chief) from their agency claims it's a good law.

i disagree with lots of laws i am forced to enforce.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

36. From the cops I've known and know, yep nt

[X_Digger]

61. Interesting find..

The National Association of Chiefs of Police does a survey of rank-and-file police officers. The results for 2008 are available here:

http://www.aphf.org/20thsurv.pdf

4. Should any law-abiding citizen be able to purchase a firearm for sport or self defense? Yes - 93.2%
5. Do you support a bill that now allows retired officers to carry a concealed firearm? Yes - 97.1%
6. Will a national concealed handgun permit reduce rates of violent crime? Yes - 50.3%

While not statistically valid (users self-select by mailing in the survey) it's still an interesting result.

[paulsby]

69. exactly my point

REAL cops generally support citizen ownership of guns and CCW.

cop-o-crats , such as chiefs of police, tend to support whatever their bosses ie mayors support.

anti-gunners constantly reference IACP.

IACP doesn't represent cops, any more than a group of automaker CEO's represents auto WORKERS.

labor does not always agree with management, and this is a perfect example

[spin]

60. Perhaps in the section of Florida where you live...

if your profile is correct you live in the Sunshine State.

My experiences over 40 years of living in Florida and knowing many in law enforcement has been far different. Most of this time was in the Tampa Bay area and now north Florida. The police I've known personally have been overwhelmingly supportive of civilian ownership of firearms and legal concealed carry. Many own firearm collections including "assault weapons" and they are definitely strong supporters of the Second Amendment.

And if I may ask, how do they make it difficult to own firearms? In Florida there is no requirement to register a weapon. All you have to do is pass an NICS background check if you buy one from a gun store. No local police involvement in the transaction.

[friendly_iconoclast]

74. Now, *here's* your opportunity to refute him

Just show that Utah, Washington, and Alaska have a higher rate of gun crime on their public college campuses
(where it is legal to carry), than places where it is not legal to do so.

Should be simple enough....

[Sarah Ibarruri]

26. By the way, today I drove past the funeral of a cop

gunned down by criminals.

[paulsby]

28. my best friend was gunned down by a criminal

doesn't change my support of right to carry.

not to mention that the guy who shot him was a multiple convicted felon, who couldn't carry any gun.

but did anyway.

i've NEVER had a CCW'er use any sort of violence against me. i've been shot at, been in shootouts, and had friends shot and/or shot killed

ALL were by people legally prohibited from carrying firearms.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

33. Your problem, but you're still an unusual cop, and I know plenty of cops nt

[Caliman73]

49. I know plenty of cops too.

Cops in all parts of California (from San Diego to San Fransisco)who think that our laws are senseless and do not address the motivating factors for crimes. All of the police I know support the rights of responsible people to own and carry firearms for their personal defense.

[paulsby]

58. thank you

that is my experience too, and in 20 yrs of law enforcement (in more than one state), i believe i can speak pretty definitively on it.

are there some cops who are against CCW? of course.

but in my extensive experience, MOST cops support it.

[57_TomCat]

72. I too am a cop...

and I live and work in the great state of Florida. I support the private ownership of firearms and I support the carry of concealed firearms by citizens. I work with other officers in a federal agency and all of the officers in my section support the right to keep and bear arms. One officer from New York did not. He transferred out some time ago. He was a small minority. The local cops I know also support the RKBA for the local citizenry. The numbers swing far into the support column. I know of no group of LE that do not support the RKBA other than select administrators. They seem to worry more about the liability situation in todays legal minefield world. Privately I have been told by several Chief LE individuals that their public position is not their privite opinion.

[spin]

31. So would you agree that gun control should focus more...

on taking guns away from criminals and less on restricting the rights of law abiding citizens?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

34. How do you take guns away from criminals if you allow mass quantities of them to exist

and be sold freely? I don't know of a single way. As for rights of people, why can't I buy nuclear weapons? People don't have every right to do any da**ed thing they please.

[spin]

42. Criminals will always have guns...

but if we work together to enforce existing laws we can make carrying illegal weapons a crime that receives a punishment severe enough to discourage every day carry.

If you are open minded check out Project Exile. http://www.ndaa.org/pdf/combating_gun_violence_web.pdf

As far as the argument that everybody should be able to own a nuclear weapon, the only people I have ever heard suggest this are the anti-gun crowd. I doubt that a nuke would be very effective for self defense, hunting or target shooting.

[yay]

55. You're rights end where others begin

Where would you set off a nuclear weapon where you wouldn't harm others or their property?

I can shoot any sort of firearm all day long without harming anyone or their property, hell I even know a place where I could set off small explosives all day long without infringing anyone else's rights.

But even a small nuclear device is going to cause detrimental damage to the environment.

[adiabatic]

32. How odd, I drove by the funeral of an alleged criminal gunned down by cops.

I did, really.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

35. Cops should and do carry guns. nt

[adiabatic]

41. And we should trust them and them only to use them responsibly.

I guess that's your claim...isn't it?

[yay]

54. What does that have to do with CCW?

As you know you have to have a license to carry a concealed weapon. You know passing a class, passing a criminal and mental background check, ect. ect.

[rl6214]

66. that's too bad BUT

If a cop cannot protect themselves against an armed criminal, how can they protect us and how can we protect ourselves.

[adiabatic]

30. Okay, tomorrow I will buy 50 Snickers bars and you can buy 50 guns.

I'll even front you the money...you have to get them in your possession tomorrow. Deal?


Oh, well, that is an idiotic proposition, I admit. But it was yours to begin with.

[rl6214]

65. You have absolutely no clue

[yay]

53. Yes and no

Our solution is to give people who pay for, and pass a class as well as pass criminal and mental background checks to carry a concealed weapon. We're not advocating handing out glock's out in the lunch room.

It's supposed to be a sort of first line of defense. It's already been proven that the police have no responsibility to protect individuals.

[east texas lib]

6. Read the article in yesterdays DMN...

I believe the professors are correct. Of course some will believe otherwise. The article is really
just an acknowledgment of the fact that one is personally responsible for their own safety.

[jody]

10. I personally know several dozen college profs. who support students with CCW exercising their right

on campus and that includes profs in the top tier universities.

Don't waste time asking me to prove my assertion because I won't.

[tucsonlib]

17. Is This Guy One Of Them?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/25/george-zinkhan-univ-of-ge_n_191403.html

[tucsonlib]

11. Wow! Three Whole Professors! n/t

[spin]

19. Three Texas professors who were willing to state their opinion...

could be a lot more.

[aikoaiko]

40. I'm a college professor and I support state sanctioned CCW of adults on campus.

In GA, that would mean 21+ years old.

I will admit that a criminal justice student did a survey on gun right issues and faculty support for CCW on campus ran only 40%. However, by my way of thinking, this is a civil right issue that shouldn't be trumped by majority opinion. There is no compelling reason why CCW isn't permissable on college campuses, but it is at the mall.

Interesting bit of info, I could ask my University President for permission to carry on campus as faculty, and if permission were given, it would be legal to do so.

[spin]

45. Out of curiosity, do you feel he would he grant permission? (n/t)

[aikoaiko]

46. I'd have to have a compelling reason and not just a well founded declaration of my RKBA.

For example, if a student had made threats, then the President would be willing.

[spin]

47. Well that sounds reasonable...

I can understand his situation. If he allowed a teacher to carry concealed for no good reason and something tragic happened, it would be his ass.

If the law changed so that concealed carry on campus was allowed, he would have no say and no responsibility for the results.

Such a change in the law might prevent college shootings in your state. No longer would mass murderers view a campus as a gun free zone when they could murder at will.

[dashrif]

50. My

Step Dad and I had this argument he is a Prof at Ok State, he told me if a student was packing and got an F he would start shooing. I told him about all the crap I had to do in order to get a ccl he was very surprised. I am still warming him up to the idea he has always been pro 2nd and for the last 10 years my hunting buddy.

We just need a open and honest conversation with professors and I think they will be more open to the idea.

[Tim01]

52. How many times has he been attacked by a student for a bad grade?

Probably never. So the average student becomes a murderer if he has a gun?
Do pocket knives turn average people into psychopaths? How about baseball bats? Cars?

I know, I'm preaching to the choir.

[dashrif]

57. Agreed

He just had some things in his mind that are not true but he is getting better and it was silly things like you are talking about that has helped turn him around but not all the way

[paulsby]

59. correct. that's the same ridiculous argument

that was used in fla etc. by HCI to claim that if people were allowed to carry guns, there would be shootouts at traffic accidents, etc. because people would lose control.

and of course the stats showed the opposite happened - violent crime went down.

if a student had so much fuckupedness that he would shoot over an "f", would a law prohibiting concealed carry stop him ?

the argument is ludicrous on its face.

[FunkyLeprechaun]

62. I was on a university campus when a madman robbed someone

This was in 2001. The victim survived the attack and no one was murdered. The only gun involved in this was the criminal's firearm. Here is the source http://www.dailyfreepress.com/news/armored-courier-attacked-at-881-1.946388 It's been a while since this occurred but I did feel a bit of a fear knowing what could have happened (the building was right next to CGS).

By the way, I am there to learn, not be shot at. It's ridiculous that you believe more guns are the solution.

[rl6214]

67. A madman huh?

I think there are probably more people being robbed on campus than you know about. Are they all madmen? Probably not. So because this one was armed he is a madman? Is anyone that carries a gun, in your mind a madman?

[FunkyLeprechaun]

70. Robs someone with a gun with the potential of harming people?

Yes, he's a madman.

My point is, he didn't target a building full of students, he targeted the Accounting Office (also part of the Office of the University Registrar). There was NO chance that a professor with a gun could get this guy.

[spin]

68. You miss the fact...

that when you are in a "no guns" zone, you are in an area that attracts mass murderers.

equals



Did you happen to notice that the "madman" who did the robbery didn't pay any attention to the fact that firearms were prohibited? The sign might make you feel safe, but it does absolutely nothing to protect you.

[FunkyLeprechaun]

71. *sigh*

I really need to stop coming in here, it raises my blood pressure when I know you're SO wrong. How do you know which crazy person has the gun? Eh? If I carried and everyone else carried as well... who is the suspect?

I'm curious as to what your solution is to that very big, very pink elephant in your post.

[friendly_iconoclast]

73. What I think he's trying to say is the signs are 'security theater'

To make people 'feel safer'
And-he's right

[spin]

75. While it's hard, imagine yourself as a mentally disturbed individual...

who is rational enough to plan a mass murder.

Where would you go?

If you go to a sports stadium the average citizen isn't allowed to carry a weapon, but there are armed police present.

In Florida, you are prohibited from carrying a concealed weapon in a courtroom. Several weeks ago I had to appear as a witness in a criminal trial. There were five armed officers in the room and quite possibly the judge was packing heat. That courtroom was the safest place in town.

If you go to a mall with your evil plan, you might just run into an individual with a concealed weapon. (Unless the mall has a no firearm policy.)

But a college classroom is a great place for a madman to shoot a bunch of unarmed individuals. If qualified people were allowed to carry in the classroom, the madman might reconsider his plan. Many people consider it fun to play "first person shooter" games, but they wouldn't be so popular if the images on the screen could shoot you.

A church can sometimes make a good shooting gallery, but in the New Life Church shooting, which happened in December 2007, an armed volunteer security guard was able to save many lives.

[spin]

76. An employee of Dunbar Armored was allegedly robbed at gunpoint ...

Doesn't sound like the bad guy was a mass murderer.

He was an example of Sutton's Law:

Sutton's law states that in attempting to diagnose a problem, one should first do the experiment that can confirm the most likely diagnosis. It is taught in medical schools to guide new doctors in ordering tests in a way that leads to faster treatment, while minimizing costs. It is also applicable to other disciplines, such as debugging computer programs.

A more thorough analysis will consider the false positive rate of the test and the possibility that a less likely diagnosis might have more serious consequences.

The law is named after the bank robber Willie Sutton, who reputedly replied to a reporter's inquiry as to why he robbed banks by saying "because that's where the money is." He denied ever saying that in a 1976 book he co-authored, Where the Money Was.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutton%27s_law