Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Sen. Kerry makes push for tighter gun control

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Guns Donate to DU
 
Tim01 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 01:11 PM
Original message
Sen. Kerry makes push for tighter gun control
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/6350856.html

"Kerry called for a ban on the imports of assault rifles, such as the AK-47, into the United States"



EL PASO — The United States does not need to send troops to the border in response to Mexico's drug war, nor is Mexico in danger of becoming a failed state, law enforcement officials told a congressional panel.

Witnesses testifying before members of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee in El Paso on Monday urged the lawmakers to bolster law enforcement in the region, increase aid to Mexico and push it to reform institutions whose weaknesses have been exposed by their struggle with drug-trafficking gangs.

Experts and members of Congress likewise said Mexico had not become a "failed state" despite corruption and intimidation that have weakened local control in some areas.

"Cartels are primarily interested in fighting each other," not in challenging for political control, Howard Campbell, an anthropologist at the University of Texas, El Paso, where the hearing was held, told the senators.

Monday's hearings, the committee's first along the border, came amid a flurry of activity in Washington focusing on Mexico's struggle with drug cartels. The Obama administration last week announced it would send more money and agents to the border, and Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton visited Mexico. Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano and Attorney General Eric Holder, Jr. will visit soon. President Barack Obama will visit Mexico on April 16.

At Monday's hearing, committee Chairman Sen. John Kerry, D-Mass., said he had been shocked to see killings and beheadings "just a stone's throw across the Rio Grande from where we're sitting this morning."

Across the border, thousands of Mexican soldiers patrol Ciudad Juarez, which saw about 2,000 murders in 14 months.

Kerry called for a ban on the imports of assault rifles, such as the AK-47, into the United States. Sen. John Barrasso, R-Wyo., and Sen. Roger Wicker, R-Miss., opposed the idea.

Assault rifles bought in the United States are favorites among cartel gunmen, who find them effective for the urban warfare, William McMahon, deputy assistant director of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, told the committee. ATF agents have traced many guns confiscated in Mexico to purchases in the United States, McMahon said.

For example, more than 60 guns seized following a shootout among factions of the Tijuana cartel in April 2008 were traced to purchases in Los Angeles, Houston, Phoenix, San Francisco, Seattle, Philadelphia and Denver, McMahon said.

The visiting senators were particularly interested in how much violence was spilling into the United States. Cartel-related killings have occurred in Texas, and cities such as Phoenix are experiencing a rise in kidnappings for ransom, which authorities say are related to debt collection among drug dealers. Mexican cartels have extended their networks into as many as 230 U.S. cities, according to federal law enforcement agencies.

El Paso District Attorney Jaime Esparza said trafficking rivalries and infighting had little effect on crime in U.S. border towns. During those bloody 14 months in Juarez, El Paso had 20 homicides, Esparza said.

"Austin, Houston, Dallas -- they are not seeing their numbers up" either, said Esparza, who is a past president of an association of Texas prosecutors. "The rhetoric has been escalated and exaggerated."

Texas Gov. Rick Perry recently asked for 1,000 National Guard troops to be stationed at the border. But Esparza said he didn't think militarizing the border was needed.

"We are safe here in El Paso," Esparza said. "If we see a radical change, I would tell you differently."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 02:26 PM
Response to Original message
1. Pelosi, Reid, 2 Dem Senators & 65 Dem congresspersons have said "NO AWB". Still people like Kerry,
Vice President Joe Biden
Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel
Atty. General Eric Holder
Sec. Of State Hillary Clinton
Sec. Of Education Arne Duncan
Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano
National Drug Control Policy Director Gil Kerlikowske
seem determined to keep the gun-grabber goal of renewing an AWB probably like HR 1022 from the last congress that would effectively ban most semiautomatic firearms.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
safeinOhio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. I don't see what that has to do with this
No ban on AWBs, only on importing them from over seas. Americans make great weapons too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Nobody manufactures AK-47 variants in the USA commercially
An import ban is a de facto ban.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
safeinOhio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. This might help start a new industry here.
We don't make much steel anymore. Does that mean we never will? If there is demand, it will happen.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. I must say I can't disagree with that
But I'll bet Senator Kerry would.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
safeinOhio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. forget about reading Kerry's mind
Just think, if a little shop in Turkey, with basic tools, can turn out AKs, what can a closed auto plant do.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. It's illegal to make civvie-legal AK-47-pattern rifles, isn't it? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Not that I know of
I recently bought a bent receiver blank to build a Cali-legal one (eventually) myself.

Link to site with detailed procedures for an AK build:

http://www.ak-builder.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=2
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-01-09 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. Only genuine full-auto ones, which can't be imported, either, regardless of what the Senator thinks.
Manufacture of civilian semiauto AK's is not illegal and never has been, and imported AK's already have to have 10 or fewer imported parts.

Problem is, AK's are cheaper than AR's in terms of materials cost, but are much more expensive in terms of labor, so totally U.S. made AK's would be over $1000 instead of $500 or so.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
michreject Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
13. I think Arsenal still makes them
They're about a grand a pop. Maybe more now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yay Donating Member (509 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. They don't "make" them.
Arsenal doesn't build the rifles from scratch. They assemble them with US receivers and imported "part kits" and slap on the required number of US made parts.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. There are a couple of problems
One, defining an "assault weapon" is an arbitrary process. Recent proposed legislation leaves the US Attorney General to define them, which means that guns like AK-47s, AR-15s, etc., will be for sale based on which party is in the White House, not on the United States Code.

Two, many of the guns are real military surplus guns. Each one is from a different country and has historic value and unique characteristics. A Yugoslavian AK-47 or SKS is not the same as a Polish or Chinese one.

For many people it's not just a rifle, it's a piece of history.


It's not a case of outsourcing, where, say, Smith & Wesson moves their factory to Latvia to exploit cheap labor. Nor is it just a bunch of low-quality cheaply-made glitzy shit designed to be used a couple of times and discarded. These are quality, serious products that used to form the backbone of a nation's defense force but are now retired.


If I was going to buy a shiny new AK-47 for myself (civilian legal, of course) I'd prefer to buy an American-made one. But the price of a rare Croation AK-47 made in 1965 might fetch a higher price and be more valued than a new AK-47 made with modern CNC machinery in a factory in Texas.


For that matter, if the DoD started civilianizing their worn-out M-16s and M-9s and selling them to gun wholesalers, I bet they would sell for about as much as a new one.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yay Donating Member (509 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
14. Except
No american company makes AK rifles from scratch.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-01-09 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #1
18. By the time an AWB passes...
every other house in the states will have at least one "assault weapon", half a dozen hi-cap magazines and at least 1000 rounds of ammo.

If only the politicians would figure out a way to promote the sale of cars made by Chevy, Ford and Dodge like they have "assault weapons".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
safeinOhio Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 02:28 PM
Response to Original message
2. Good idea
In this economy I'm for a ban on importing any product that can be made by Americans.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
5. Stupid idea, obviously won't fix the problem
Edited on Tue Mar-31-09 02:47 PM by slackmaster
First of all, I don't believe that semiautomatic rifles sold to the public in the USA represent a very large piece of the problem in Mexico.

But regardless of how much of a problem that kind of transaction may be, the people who make those rifles overseas (in China, Romania, Albania, Turkey, etc.), will simply sell them directly to the Mexican gangs to make up for the loss in US market.

The USA has no effective way to control that kind of thing. (The fact that there is nothing stopping them from doing that now casts extreme doubt on the widespread practice of buying them at retail in the USA.) At least with the rifles being sold at retail here, we do have gun control laws that govern domestic sales, and we do have export restrictions.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SteveM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-31-09 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
9. Ah, the addiction of prohibition...
Prohibition of drugs helped mightily to put Mexico in this situation. Now, there are is a call for more prohibition? Of guns? Does anyone really expect that to help out Mexico? Really? I don't think so.

The reason for the calls for yet another "assault weapons ban" is to resurrect the same old failed issue using a brand new excuse: what's happening in Mexico. I warned of this at least a year ago: the gun-controllers would go international to effect what they cannot effect domestically. They have tried the U.N. (a dead-end street for just about anything one wishes to accomplish), but they have caught some of their own wind and are drifting inevitably toward Mexico.

I always had a suspicion that many of our so-called "progressive" Democrats were not very bright politically. This confirms it. Progs are just as likely to engage in hateful culture wars as the right-wingers, only the far right can at least point to a substantial activist constituency (even if a "minority" one) which can deliver the goods, change policy and get their ilk elected.

The gun-control groups can accomplish nothing of this sort. But they do get Democrats defeated.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
cadmium Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-01-09 05:49 AM
Response to Original message
16. Good even if only rhetorical
I am tired of Dems intimidated by the gun lobby. Most mainstream Dems shy away from making any statements critical of the burgeoning weaponizing of the US. I like to hear this in the same way that I liked Webb's recent broadside against the the drug war and the prison industry lobby was a real push back on taboo subjects
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-01-09 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. Yea, just like Webb..
You do know Webb is probably the MOST pro-gun Democrat in the Senate right???

ROFLMAO!!!!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
SsevenN Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-02-09 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
20. Pffft, the jig is up you liars.
Edited on Thu Apr-02-09 04:15 PM by SsevenN
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/04/02/myth-percent-guns-mexico-fraction-number-claimed/

"Assault rifles bought in the United States are favorites among cartel gunmen, who find them effective for the urban warfare, William McMahon, deputy assistant director of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, told the committee. ATF agents have traced many guns confiscated in Mexico to purchases in the United States, McMahon said.

For example, more than 60 guns seized following a shootout among factions of the Tijuana cartel in April 2008 were traced to purchases in Los Angeles, Houston, Phoenix, San Francisco, Seattle, Philadelphia and Denver, McMahon said."


"EXCLUSIVE: You've heard this shocking "fact" before -- on TV and radio, in newspapers, on the Internet and from the highest politicians in the land: 90 percent of the weapons used to commit crimes in Mexico come from the United States.

-- Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said it to reporters on a flight to Mexico City.

-- CBS newsman Bob Schieffer referred to it while interviewing President Obama.

-- California Sen. Dianne Feinstein said at a Senate hearing: "It is unacceptable to have 90 percent of the guns that are picked up in Mexico and used to shoot judges, police officers and mayors ... come from the United States."

-- William Hoover, assistant director for field operations at the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, testified in the House of Representatives that "there is more than enough evidence to indicate that over 90 percent of the firearms that have either been recovered in, or interdicted in transport to Mexico, originated from various sources within the United States."

There's just one problem with the 90 percent "statistic" and it's a big one:

It's just not true.

In fact, it's not even close. The fact is, only 17 percent of guns found at Mexican crime scenes have been traced to the U.S.

What's true, an ATF spokeswoman told FOXNews.com, in a clarification of the statistic used by her own agency's assistant director, "is that over 90 percent of the traced firearms originate from the U.S."

But a large percentage of the guns recovered in Mexico do not get sent back to the U.S. for tracing, because it is obvious from their markings that they do not come from the U.S.

"Not every weapon seized in Mexico has a serial number on it that would make it traceable, and the U.S. effort to trace weapons really only extends to weapons that have been in the U.S. market," Matt Allen, special agent of U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), told FOX News.

Video:Click here to watch more.

A Look at the Numbers

In 2007-2008, according to ATF Special Agent William Newell, Mexico submitted 11,000 guns to the ATF for tracing. Close to 6,000 were successfully traced -- and of those, 90 percent -- 5,114 to be exact, according to testimony in Congress by William Hoover -- were found to have come from the U.S.

But in those same two years, according to the Mexican government, 29,000 guns were recovered at crime scenes.

In other words, 68 percent of the guns that were recovered were never submitted for tracing. And when you weed out the roughly 6,000 guns that could not be traced from the remaining 32 percent, it means 83 percent of the guns found at crime scenes in Mexico could not be traced to the U.S.

So, if not from the U.S., where do they come from? There are a variety of sources:

-- The Black Market. Mexico is a virtual arms bazaar, with fragmentation grenades from South Korea, AK-47s from China, and shoulder-fired rocket launchers from Spain, Israel and former Soviet bloc manufacturers.

-- Russian crime organizations. Interpol says Russian Mafia groups such as Poldolskaya and Moscow-based Solntsevskaya are actively trafficking drugs and arms in Mexico.

- South America. During the late 1990s, the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) established a clandestine arms smuggling and drug trafficking partnership with the Tijuana cartel, according to the Federal Research Division report from the Library of Congress.

-- Asia. According to a 2006 Amnesty International Report, China has provided arms to countries in Asia, Africa and Latin America. Chinese assault weapons and Korean explosives have been recovered in Mexico.

-- The Mexican Army. More than 150,000 soldiers deserted in the last six years, according to Mexican Congressman Robert Badillo. Many took their weapons with them, including the standard issue M-16 assault rifle made in Belgium.

-- Guatemala. U.S. intelligence agencies say traffickers move immigrants, stolen cars, guns and drugs, including most of America's cocaine, along the porous Mexican-Guatemalan border. On March 27, La Hora, a Guatemalan newspaper, reported that police seized 500 grenades and a load of AK-47s on the border. Police say the cache was transported by a Mexican drug cartel operating out of Ixcan, a border town.

'These Don't Come From El Paso'

Ed Head, a firearms instructor in Arizona who spent 24 years with the U.S. Border Patrol, recently displayed an array of weapons considered "assault rifles" that are similar to those recovered in Mexico, but are unavailable for sale in the U.S.

"These kinds of guns -- the auto versions of these guns -- they are not coming from El Paso," he said. "They are coming from other sources. They are brought in from Guatemala. They are brought in from places like China. They are being diverted from the military. But you don't get these guns from the U.S."

Some guns, he said, "are legitimately shipped to the government of Mexico, by Colt, for example, in the United States. They are approved by the U.S. government for use by the Mexican military service. The guns end up in Mexico that way -- the fully auto versions -- they are not smuggled in across the river."

Many of the fully automatic weapons that have been seized in Mexico cannot be found in the U.S., but they are not uncommon in the Third World.

The Mexican government said it has seized 2,239 grenades in the last two years -- but those grenades and the rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs) are unavailable in U.S. gun shops. The ones used in an attack on the U.S. Consulate in Monterrey in October and a TV station in January were made in South Korea. Almost 70 similar grenades were seized in February in the bottom of a truck entering Mexico from Guatemala.

"Most of these weapons are being smuggled from Central American countries or by sea, eluding U.S. and Mexican monitors who are focused on the smuggling of semi-automatic and conventional weapons purchased from dealers in the U.S. border states of Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California," according to a report in the Los Angeles Times.

Boatloads of Weapons

So why would the Mexican drug cartels, which last year grossed between $17 billion and $38 billion, bother buying single-shot rifles, and force thousands of unknown "straw" buyers in the U.S. through a government background check, when they can buy boatloads of fully automatic M-16s and assault rifles from China, Israel or South Africa?

Alberto Islas, a security consultant who advises the Mexican government, says the drug cartels are using the Guatemalan border to move black market weapons. Some are left over from the Central American wars the United States helped fight; others, like the grenades and launchers, are South Korean, Israeli and Spanish. Some were legally supplied to the Mexican government; others were sold by corrupt military officers or officials.

The exaggeration of United States "responsibility" for the lawlessness in Mexico extends even beyond the "90-percent" falsehood -- and some Second Amendment activists believe it's designed to promote more restrictive gun-control laws in the U.S.

In a remarkable claim, Auturo Sarukhan, the Mexican ambassador to the U.S., said Mexico seizes 2,000 guns a day from the United States -- 730,000 a year. That's a far cry from the official statistic from the Mexican attorney general's office, which says Mexico seized 29,000 weapons in all of 2007 and 2008.

Chris Cox, spokesman for the National Rifle Association, blames the media and anti-gun politicians in the U.S. for misrepresenting where Mexican weapons come from.

"Reporter after politician after news anchor just disregards the truth on this," Cox said. "The numbers are intentionally used to weaken the Second Amendment."

"The predominant source of guns in Mexico is Central and South America. You also have Russian, Chinese and Israeli guns. It's estimated that over 100,000 soldiers deserted the army to work for the drug cartels, and that ignores all the police. How many of them took their weapons with them?"

But Tom Diaz, senior policy analyst at the Violence Policy Center, called the "90 percent" issue a red herring and said that it should not detract from the effort to stop gun trafficking into Mexico.

"Let's do what we can with what we know," he said. "We know that one hell of a lot of firearms come from the United States because our gun market is wide open.""

Man what a great day, exposing political lies is about as good as it gets.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Mon May 06th 2024, 03:13 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Guns Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC