Making sure that gun guy

[MichaelHarris]

who posts all the "Good" shootings doesn't miss this one:
Gunman kills nine, then himself, in rampage through Alabama towns of Kinston, Samson and Geneva

An Alabama man with an assault weapon burned down his mother's house around her, shot his grandparents, aunt and uncle dead, then killed five other people Tuesday before turning the gun on himself, authorities said.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2009/03/10/2009-03-10_gunman_kills_nine_then_himself_in_rampag.html

The cool thing is this guy used their favorite weapon, you know, the one they claim is never used in a crime:

Police pursued him to a metals plant, 2 miles north of Geneva, where he grazed the Geneva police chief with a bullet during a 30-round burst of fire, the department said. A bullet- proof vest saved the chief from serious injury.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a4yCrvHxP5xQ&refer=home


The gunman ended up at the Reliable Metal Products plant in Geneva, where police rammed his vehicle, forcing him to get out. He fired a 30-round burst with what appeared to be an M16
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/03/10/shooting.alabama/

AWB? we don't need no AWB!

[grantcart]

1. no matter how many rounds per second it will never be counted as an assault weapon

30 round burst of fire - not an assault weapon, need it for my deer hunting - those deers are getting friskier and friskier.

[MichaelHarris]

2. I usually like around

2 to 300 rounds per minute when varmit hunting, those little bastards just scurry around with no place to run with that kind of fire power.

[grantcart]

3. I want a flame thrower to protect my house

I don't want to shoot the intruder I want him to light up like a Christmas tree.


If I happen to get my daughter's boy friend sneaking in through the window, well I am safe, I had no criminal intent.

[MichaelHarris]

7. hahahahahahahha

Would an RPG be out of place for a window peeper? I'm not sure of the etiquette on that one.

[Hoopla Phil]

86. I believe that is a $5.00 fee on a destructive devise plus

the other "paper work" to get a title II weapon.

[slackmaster]

125. Flame throwers are not regulated

The igniters for the ones the US military used during World War II are regulated as destructive devices because they contain a primary explosive. However, flame throwers themselves are not classified as firearms (hehe) or as DDs.

[Hoopla Phil]

126. Learn something new every day. Really thought they were DDs. Thanks

[TheWraith]

4. What are you talking about?

Assuming that the reports are right about a 30 round burst, the guy was using an illegally acquired weapon to begin with. Anything capable of automatic fire is regulated under the 1934 National Firearms Act. The weapons covered under the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban are all semi-automatic.

[vadawg]

5. wow some facts, i dont think the gun grabbers will like facts.

[MichaelHarris]

15. So you know

for a fact the guy bought a full auto AW? Any chance he bought a semi auto AW version and converted it? Of course it is impossible to do that right? I mean Google and facts and all that Gun Show stuff you can buy. Little secret, I had a Class 3 firearms license for a while so I'm not ignorant about the subject. Facts, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

[Hanse]

17. Wow, you're really amused by this, aren't you?

I respect that. I myself am completely indifferent. But I can admire the gall over someone taking so much pleasure over the attacks.

[MichaelHarris]

19. only

pleasure I get is seeing gun nuts try and justify the AW during times like this.

[Hanse]

22. That's neat.

So you exploit the victims every time there's a shooting? Or only when there's a mass shooting?

[MichaelHarris]

25. sure you don't want to talk

about the weapon or do still want to redirect the debate? Next week, when this is all forgotten you'll bang the AWB drum. Some of us will still be questioning it and feeling bad for families that have suffered. We fight for the ban, you fight for the weapon, which of us has more compassion for the families loss?

By all means though, continue to re-direct the debate, you sure don't want to talk about assualt weapons at a time like this.

[Hanse]

26. Oh, you're a very noble, moral, upright person, Michael Harris.

Hahahahahahaha!

[MichaelHarris]

29. Well

thank you for noticing.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

28. Feel free to contact your congressperson and encourage them to re-enact the AWB.

[paulsby]

77. the guy could have caused the same frigging carnage

with a revolver for pete's sake.

or a shotgun.

neither of which is an "assault weapon"

[raimius]

132. Very Noble

But this seems to bring to memory the day after one of my friends was murdered (by a man who happened to use a shotgun and a pistol) that the Brady Campaign called for a new AWB because of the event. The guy didn't even use an "AW"...?!

Now, being predisposed to the pro gun-rights side, I was offended that they would use my friends death to call for an unrelated piece of legislation. Such compassion!
They didn't know her. They didn't care. They saw another opportunity to advance their political agenda.

If you want a new AWB, that's your choice, but don't claim to be a better person by bringing up the "memories" of people you didn't know to advance your own agenda.
(If you knew a victim who wanted a new AWB, that would be entirely appropriate. Also, my condolences if you knew a victim.)

[Chulanowa]

36. Don't the gun forum posters take similar joy over murder?

I mean so long as it's a "bad guy". A television or car window is worth a human life, you know. Every dead "criminal" shot in the back makes our local Gunocrats need a change of their pants, because it "proves" the holy right, nay NEED for everyone to be armed and ready to kill at a moment's notice.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

38. I've never seen that.

[MichaelHarris]

40. never seen it?

it's right here in this thread, look down


"Until "that guy" shows up, I'll just say that one of the shootings was a good one."

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

42. I see no more joy in his response than I do in your OP.

[MichaelHarris]

44. Good shooting?

as opposed to? You have to try harder man.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

47. Is it a widely accepted police term that a "good" shoot is a legitimate one.

I think everyone would agree that shooting someone to stop a mass murder in progress is a legitimate use of deadly force or a "good" shoot.

David

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

49. So you think they should have let him continue to kill people, that's interesting.

[MichaelHarris]

51. keep

rewriting my posts, I'm sure you'll get them to make sense to the pro AW crowd.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

53. Feel free to clarify, was the shooting of this suspect a legitimate use of deadly force?

[tangent90]

103. Do you have these rat dreams frequently?

:eyes:

[beevul]

72. And yet...

"Little secret, I had a Class 3 firearms license for a while so I'm not ignorant about the subject."

And yet you continue on about the AWB which does not cover automatic weapons.

If as you say you are not "ignorant about the subject", why do you do that?

Your own source says 30 round burst. So called "assault weapons" you know, the ones that would be covered by an AWB, do not fire in burst mode.


Your agenda is showing.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TheWraith]

79. Weapons which can be converted to automatic are already considered automatic under the law.

That's the 1934 NFA, of course. To "convert" an existing weapon to automatic fire, you'd basically have to rebuild it from the ground up using parts from a full auto weapon. Despite the loose talk and snake oil that some gun dealers may use to sell you parts or products, that's a lot easier said than done. There was a case not too long ago where a California police chief (Bakersfield, I think) said that in his decades in CA law enforcement he had never once seen or siezed a semi-auto which had been converted to full auto.

Anyway, I doubt that this guy bought anything. Given the description of it as an M-16, my first guess would be that it was probably a stolen US military weapon.

[AtheistCrusader]

100. What gun show stuff?

If you think it's a problem, why don' you go to a gun show, and call the BATFE. If someone is in possession of the parts to convert a semi-auto to a full-auto weapon, that pile of parts counts as a fully automatic weapon all by itself, even without the rest of the gun present. Just holding the parts in your hand makes you in possession of an illegal, fully automatic weapon.

If I EVER saw someone selling such a thing at a gun show, you can bet I'd be on my cell phone right away. People like that, if they even exist, need to go to jail, post haste.

[gorfle]

106. Full auto..

First of all, I doubt that the weapon used by the shooter was actually fully automatic. Such crimes are exceedingly rare. The media is trumpeting a "30 round burst" but more than likely the shooter simply expended 30 rounds semi-automatically.

Converted fully-automatic weapons are very rare, also. There was recently a post here from a police honcho from California interviewed by Congress. In his decades-long career he had never once encountered such a weapon.

[raimius]

131. Full autos aren't AWs

...and AWs aren't full-auto
One is an NFA Title II firearm and the other is NFA Title I.
ALL AWs are semi-auto.
NO full-autos were defined as AWs (by the 1994 federal definition).


One would think a Class 3 FFL would know these things...

[grantcart]

20. well these are the facts that I am familiar with

an airforce corporal is drummed out of the service.

buys an AK 47 and returns to the base to kill the doctors that found him insane

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9906E4DD133DF932A15755C0A962958260

The eventual toll was 5 dead and a couple of dead wounded, missing my cousin who fortunately stayed home that day.


Speaker of the House Tom Foley, a lifelong member of the NRA and the representative for that district, comes out against civilians having access to these assault weapons.


NRA puts millions of dollars into the campaign to defeat Foley (all of NRA's adds had nothing to do with guns or the shooting but focused on term limits and other lies about his record) and Foley loses by a few percentage points.


Whenever you make the assertion that weapons like the AK 47 should not be available to the general public somebody comments on technical definitions of assault weapons.


The fact of this matter is had this gunman not gone to a facility that was loaded to the brim with guards who qualified as sharpshooters and could take him out at 70 yards with a pistol but instead had gone to a crowded mall, he would have shot 290 and not 29 people.

http://www.kxly920.com/Global/story.asp?S=8368881

And had he done that there still would be people justifying those kinds of weapons be widely sold to anybody with cash.


Those are the facts that I know.

[TellTheTruth82]

69. Foley's district

Having lived in Foley's district, I can assure you that Foley lost because of his abysmal record while living in a fairly conservative county, not because of the "fact" you portrayed.

[grantcart]

94. I was born and raised in Foley's district, my brother is an elected official there

while conservative it has a strong catholic base and votes in high numbers for conservative Democrats.

Tom Foley won 15 elections in the district that you think he could not win.

His opponent, who I personally knew, is a fool and ran a stupid campaign.

In 1990 Tom Foley won the district with 60,000 votes and had 69% of the vote. (One year he won with 82%)

In 1992 He beat Sonneland (a neighbor of mine) by 25,000 votes. Sonneland is a very intelligent moderate Republican, a very well known physician it was Sonnelands 4th and final attempt to beat him.

The NRA poured millions into the campaign buying advertisements in 1994 that had to do with term limits. They then boasted across the country that they were responsible for taking Foley out.

Foley lost the election by 2% or 4,000 votes. Every political analyst analyzing the election has credited the NRA's massive ad buys as having turned the tide for Foley ( a lifetime member of the NRA), the first speaker of the House to lose his seat in 130 years.

[MichaelHarris]

8. hahahahahahaaha

hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[Hanse]

9. "30 round burst"

Given the way media reports these things, I wouldn't be surprised if they meant 30 rounds were fired from a semiautomatic.

[MichaelHarris]

11. See the papers

reporting the story? Not the most "liberal" of the lot I would say.

[Hanse]

13. Huh?

[MichaelHarris]

21. come on man think!

Bloomburg, New York Daily news, not your average liberal media.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MichaelHarris]

31. don't drink

and if I have to explain to you how conservative media reports gun stories as opposed to how liberal sources report them then you really need to do some research.

[tangent90]

104. You probably should have a couple of cocktails. They can only help at this point.

...

[aikoaiko]

70. You do know that Mayor Bloomberg (the nation's anti-gun zealot) still owns 88% of Bloomberg lp.

think, indeed.

[Bandit]

68. Ar4 you saying you can't put out a thirty round burst with a semi-auto weapon?

Then obviously you have never fired one...semi-auto means almost automatic, as quick as you can pull the trigger..thirty rounds in a ten second burst is quite easy.

[slackmaster]

71. The word "burst" is used as a technical term to indicate that more than one bullet is fired

In a single instance of pulling a trigger, i.e. a fully automatic weapon under the law.

I don't know yet whether it's being used in that sense here.

[TheWraith]

78. Actually yes, I have fired semi-autos.

And 30 pulls in ten seconds isn't quite as easy as you suggest. The AR-15, which is the closest thing to an M-16 in pure semi-auto, is only rated for up to 90 rounds per minute, half that rate.

Furthermore, the use of the word "burst" implies fully automatic fire. Like I said, the news report may be wrong about this, but if they're not completely screwing up the report, then they're suggesting he was using an illegal weapon.

[slackmaster]

128. With a semiauto you can either pull the trigger super fast or hit your target

Most people can't do both at the same time.

[benEzra]

67. All civilian-legal guns fire at the same rate, once and only once when the trigger is pulled.

If this was an automatic weapon, it was either an automatic 10-year Federal felony to possess it, OR he had explicit Federal authorization to own it (BATFE Form 4).

[TheWraith]

80. Based on the first reports my guess is it was a stolen military weapon.

It was described as an M-16. Assuming it was fully automatic like they say, that would be worth about $20,000 with the federal license. Not exactly a gun that you use to go kill a bunch of people.

[Hanse]

6. Heh. "The cool thing is..."

I'm glad you're able to find the silver lining.

:eyes:

[billyoc]

10. Until "that guy" shows up, I'll just say that one of the shootings was a good one.

The last one.

[paulsby]

12. not true

"he cool thing is this guy used their favorite weapon, you know, the one they claim is never used in a crime"

false people correctly claim that rifles (assault weapon styled or not), make up a TINY percentage of murders. all long guns (assaul;t weapons, shotguns, etc.) make up less than 5%

of course they are SOMETIMES used for crime, to include homicide

[Lasher]

14. Ban matches and cigarette lighters while you're at it.

He burned down his mother's house around her, I see.

[MichaelHarris]

16. That;s it?

that's really all you got? What if he used a BBQ lighter thing or a propane tank? Don't want to ban the wrong thing. We do know what kind of weapon was used though, see the difference?

[Lasher]

61. No, you don't know what kind of weapon was used.

Was it an automatic or semi-automatic? That is a very important distinction and you don't seem to understand the difference. Was it an M-16 or something else? That doesn't seem to have been established so you don't know that either.

And your ignorance is not confined to firearms. See, propane tanks are not something most people would try to use in lighting a fire. They are fuel containers and won't initiate combustion unless you rub two of them together real fast for a long time. But now that I think of it I guess we'll have to ban sticks while we're at it because they can be rubbed together to start a fire so that killers can burn their mothers' houses down around them.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

18. Please link to the post where someone said assault weapons are NEVER used in crimes.

It really helps if you attempt to be honest if you wish to engage in a civil debate.

David

[MichaelHarris]

27. Sure but you

look for it. It was in the Gungeon about 6 months ago. One of the guys there said AWs had never been used in a major crime. I replied with the bank robbery in LA where the cops were completely out gunned. I said it, I posted it, now you find it.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

30. That's what I thought.

[MichaelHarris]

32. look it

up you're going to feel really stupid when someone finds it. Think I would actually lie on the board where I posted it? I wrote about it at the same time I covered the Moscow, Id Sniper shooting. Oh yeah, he used an AK-47.

[Hanse]

33. Actually, he'd look neutral if somebody did post it.

You'll continue to look really stupid until somebody does.

[MichaelHarris]

34. scared

to look for it? OK think the guys name was joby or jobycon, something like that. But then I'm lying my ass off right?

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jobycom]

130. Funny what you find by searching your own name. That's certainly not something I would have posted.

So I don't know if you're making up a post, misattributing a post, or you misunderstood something I actually did post, but that wasn't me.

In case anyone cares.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

37. Not really because you said "they" so that would mean the multiple people on this board said that.

The reality is that so called assault weapons are rarely used in crimes. In fact rifles of any type are rarely used in crime. Those are the only facts I've ever seen cited here.

David

[MichaelHarris]

39. Facts cited in the

Gungeon:

"One or two such crimes nationwide in the last two decades...

and only a few hundred officers were there to see it. The vast majority of officers will never see one in their life.

LAPD has, what, 8000 officers?

This is a nation of 300 million people, yet in most years, the number of criminal homicides committed with automatic weapons is zero."

I like to call it "Get to know your Gungeon"

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

41. assault weapons are not automatic weapons...regardless the poster didn't say never.

[MichaelHarris]

43. put that in

the kool-aid and drink it right up, "he grazed the Geneva police chief with a bullet during a 30-round burst of fire"

Truth be told Dave, you'll be here today, tomorrow, next week posting all the "good shootings". I'll be here here also posting the "bad" shootings. Who do you think will have more posts?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

45. When confronted by the facts that prove you wrong you resort to insults, how telling.

That 30 round burst was now reportedly fired from a semi-automatic weapon. How about getting your facts straight?

David

[MichaelHarris]

46. hahahahahahahahahaahah

night Dave, maybe this was all a bad dream for the Gungeon.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

48. By all means run away.

[MichaelHarris]

50. Oh not at all

the facts are on the table, DUers will read it and decide. I'm always here. In fact I'll post in every one of your "good shooting" threads if you don't mind. (just to show you I'm not running away of course)

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

52. Given how easy it was to discredit you I welcome you to any thread I post.

[MichaelHarris]

54. LOL

Oh yeah in some alternate universe you discredited the hell out of me, ahahahahahahahaha. Like the time you posted the the bad guy getting shot and I posted five stories from the same day where five innocent people died. Hurt the hell out me there Dave.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

55. When you post those links to multiple people saying assault weapons are never used in a crime,,

then you may get some respect back. You could just admit that you were wrong, that would do it too. The thing is I've got the Constitution on my side, it's a big advantage. Feel free to chime in whenever you see one of my posts, nothing I like more than a lively debate.

David

[MichaelHarris]

58. I said multiple?

Must be rewriting history again.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

59. You were clearly speaking of "gun nuts" as a group, regardless you still haven't posted any.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

60. The most impressive thing is how long we've been able to keep this thread in general discussion.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

56. I remember you now.

How has the fishing been?

David

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

57. On a serious note who provides the ambulance service for your community?

[Name removed]

64. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Caliman73]

129. If you are basing it on the shootings which the media chooses to report

Then you may have the edge. If you are going by actual number of times in which a firearm is used to prevent a crime or stop an attack (legitimate/good shooting) Then Dave would win by an large ratio.

[benEzra]

73. With automatic weapons, yes. It is not known if this was committed with an automatic weapon

Gungeon:

"One or two such crimes nationwide in the last two decades...

and only a few hundred officers were there to see it. The vast majority of officers will never see one in their life.

LAPD has, what, 8000 officers?

This is a nation of 300 million people, yet in most years, the number of criminal homicides committed with automatic weapons is zero."

I like to call it "Get to know your Gungeon"

With automatic weapons, yes; automatic weapons are as tightly controlled in the USA as bombs and howitzers. It is not known if the Alabama murders were committed with an automatic weapon or a civilian NON-automatic rifle.

You ARE aware of the difference, right?

Civilian non-automatic rifles account for about 3% of U.S. murders annually, or about half as many as shoes and bare hands.

[Barack_America]

82. What legal semi-automatic can hold 15+ rounds at once?

Seriously, I'm not aware of one (not a gun enthusiast) and I'd like to know.

The police chief reported being sprayed with "15 to 18" shots in a "burst" and "all at once". I'd like to know what legal firearms are capable of this.

Thanks.

[benEzra]

83. The majority of civilian semiautos can hold 15+ rounds,

and none can fire more than once when the trigger is pulled. Any size magazine can be fitted (I own 5, 10, 20, 30, and 40 round magazines for my carbine, and my wife's 9mm pistol holds 15), but the most common magazine sizes are 13 to 17 rounds for full-sized pistols and 20 or 30 rounds for small-caliber centerfire rifles.

It is possible that the police chief was speaking of the man merely shooting rapidly, one shot at a time (what I'd refer to as a "string" of fire), but it is possible he had a stolen police/military weapon or a black-market/illegally constructed machinegun. True burst-capable weapons (i.e., those that can fire more than once when the trigger is pulled or held down) are restricted under Title 2 of the National Firearms Act.

Automatic and burst-mode weapons are for the most part restricted to police/military only, but Federal law does allow pre-1986 collectibles to be owned by non-LEO civilians who obtain Federal authorization (BATFE Form 4), and as a result there are only a few legally in non-LEO civilian hands, and they are extremely expensive ($17,000 to $75,000 for a civilian-transferable Title 2 M16, depending on rarity and collectibility).

[Barack_America]

85. Thanks for that info.

He was reported to have had a Soviet-style SKS and a Bushman something (the exact type wasn't mentioned) along with a pistol of some sort.

I'm interested to know what he had because the report that he was apparently able to fire on police officers in such a manner, without them having apparently having time to react concerns me. With the Right whipping people into a frenzy with their anti-Obama and "the end is nigh" bullshit, I'm becoming increasingly concerned about the threat they pose to law enforcement officers responding to their acted-out delusions.

[benEzra]

87. Possibly Bushmaster?

They are one of 33 or so manufacturers of AR-15 type civilian rifles for the U.S. market.

This is an SKS, FWIW:



The SKS is reportedly the most common centerfire rifle in U.S. homes (I have seen a figure of 7 million tossed around, but can't personally vouch for it). The above carbine is my wife's.

I think your concerns are valid, particularly with things getting worse economically. In this case, I suspect the officer was surprised, and being surprised by an attacker with a rifle or shotgun is tactically a very bad situation to be in. The murderer may also have known the victim's habits since the murderer had trained as a police officer himself and may have known the victim in that capacity. It appears that some of the murders were nonrandom.

[Barack_America]

89. Sounds like you're right about the surprise thing.

http://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/article/20090311/NEWS/90311033

The officers clearly didn't know what they were dealing with and possibly, would've been outmatched even if they had. You've got to wonder what kind of training they do in that area for dealing with domestic terrorism and what happens when one of the good ol' boys goes bad. With all the money that was spent through DHS for first responders, how much went into training to deal with this sort of scenario? Probably not much. Most was probably spent on new equipment. My fiance, for example, is a volunteer EMT. Last night he came home from the station with some shiny new turnout gear. He will rarely use it given the calls they generally get. Though he looks quite handsome in his new get up, I'd be more comforted by him getting training in how to deal with and protect himself from a person on a shooting rampage. That would've been DHS dollars better spent, IMO. The escalation of these rampage events in recent years is what is truly "terrifying".

[AtheistCrusader]

99. Minor point:

Not all states will allow even that. California, and Washington states for example, all those fees, background checks and registration are not enough. You still cannot be in possession of one of these weapons inside the state, unless you are law enforcement, (generally at the discretion of the police chief) active duty military (you will see such weapons used legally by soldiers on say, National Guard ranges in Yakima), and people engaged in the lawful manufacture, repair, or sale of these weapons to legal customers, in or out of state.

[AtheistCrusader]

98. The AR-15 is popularly available in semi-auto.

(the full auto is actually the M-16)

I have many 30 round magazines for mine, and have contemplated the 100 round beta-C mag. Though I am not terribly impressed with it's mechanical reliability, so combined with the expense, I may just pass on that mag.

All perfectly legal, even in Washington State where civilian ownership of fully automatic weapons is completely forbidden.


I'll save you a post and ask myself, why do I need so many rounds? The AR-15 is illegal in this state for hunting deer, because .223 is considered by our department of fish and game too under-powered to humanely kill a deer. I have three uses for mine, hunting small game, target practice, and home defense. For hunting, I typically don't use the AR, I use a mini-14. Same basic rifle, but no need for high-capacity. I have the option if I so choose, but I do not. For target practice, high cap is convienient, and allows for realistic practice. For home defense, I consider high-cap to be critical.

I use the AR as a home defense weapon because the .223 won't go through 10 walls and get my neighbors, like my .30-06 deer hunting rifle will. A deer rifle will generally go through 10 layers of drywall and a layer of exterior plywood, and still be going downrange with enough velocity, and mass to easily kill a human being.

[yay]

124. This only hurts you, just so you know.

You show your ignorance of the technical difference between firearms and lack of reading comprehension with flying colors.

"This is a nation of 300 million people, yet in most years, the number of criminal homicides committed with automatic weapons is zero."

Which is 100% true. Full(not semi) automatic firearms are not used in crimes very offten. Just because some reporter say's he used an "AK-47" Doesn't mean it's an automatic firearm. Such rifles to own legally cost up words of $20,000 and require a $200 tax stamp with about a 4-6 month wait before you actually get the stamp. To date since 1934, a legally owned and registered full-automatic weapon has only been used in about 4 crimes nationally. One of which was committed by a police officer.

The above quote also does not say anything about "semi-automatic assault weapons". Which are used in crimes, but they would fall into the 3% figure from the FBI, since that encompasses ALL rifles it's a safe bet that they are used even less than 3%.

Live above the ignorance.

[rl6214]

113. You want it?

Why should anyone do YOUR work for you?

[tkmorris]

24. *sigh* Everyone's talking past each other again I see

This why it never pays to check into these debates. The most vociferous people pick a side and just don't listen to each other anymore. Neither side gives an inch, no matter what. It's pretty damned silly frankly.

[Lasher]

62. It's an opportunity for a little fun if you're inclined.

It is not a particularly good exercise in communication. :)

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[aikoaiko]

65. Do you think the outcome of this spree would have been different with 10-rd mags and no pistol grip?

Because I don't.

This killing spree is a terrible tragedy, but I don't think an AWB would have changed it much.

[rl6214]

114. The sks

is 10 round magazine and no pistol grip.

[quickesst]

66. The gun issue on DU.....

...is one issue that the majority of members should avoid as it highlights the obvious ignorance on the subject, especially if the word "Bambi" is part of their statement. Anyone who takes one scenario and judges an entire culture as if the counter-argument and it's merits does not exist are the crown jewels of ignorance, and will always garner a lemming-like following. Easily led to conclusions. Sounds like another group we all love and admire.:sarcasm: Thanks.
quickesst

[AtheistCrusader]

74. I think you might want to calm down a little bit there.

Grazing through the AP stories available thus far couple possibilities:

1. This may have been an actual Assault Rifle, not an 'assault weapon'. The M-16 Was never covered under any 'assault weapons' ban because it is in fact a machine gun. Didn't you say you had an FFL or Class 3 license somewhere? You should know the difference.

2. He worked at "Reliable Metal Products". They do custom metal fabrication for industrial hvac equipment. He may have had access, and the skills to manufacture the parts he needed to convert an AR-15 into a M-16. In fact, he may have had the tools and skills to manufacture an M-16 from the ground up. Little early to know for sure.


In the end, this MAY have been a weapon actually covered under the AWB, but it's a little too early to even guess, they way the AP stories vary on the details this morning. I'd give it at least a week before we know.

"Police trooper Kevin Cook, a spokesman for Alabama state troopers, told reporters the gunman used a semi-automatic weapon, but gave no further details."
http://rawstory.com/news/afp/Alabama_gunman_kills_10_self_in_ram_03112009.html

[spin]

75. Some info on weapon used...

Nine people were gunned down with bullets from a semi-automatic weapon in two rural Alabama counties near the Florida border.
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/03/11/alabama-shootings.html?ref=rss

He then went into Reliable Metal Products where he used to work, and 'USA Today' reported that he fired an estimated 30 rounds from a semi-automatic weapon.
http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/bild-english/world-news/2009/03/11/alabama-shooting-rampage/gunman-michael-mclendon-kills-11-including-a-child-in-massacre.html

[jeepnstein]

76. M16?

I seriously doubt it. I suspect the reporter wouldn't know an M16 from a rubber band gun.

Sounds to me like an AR15 is more likely, unless he had an illegal conversion. An illegal gun isn't out of the realm of possibility considering the guy went on a murdering rampage. What's one more Federal charge when you're going out in a blaze of glory? Would they be any less dead if he had used a machete or nicotine sulfate?

Nobody says it's "never" used in a crime, only that it's not that common. That's a pretty horrific and thankfully rare crime. His weapon of choice is irrelevant. The guy murdered his extended family and that speaks of problems more deeply seated than whether his weapon had a pistol grip or not.

[Barack_America]

81. It was a Soviet-made SKS and a Bushmaster(?) according to ABC News.

"He opened up on us with an AK-47," said Geneva Police Chief Frankie Lindsey, who was wounded in the shoulder. "That's what it looked like. It could have been an M-16, but it was an assault rifle, automatic. And he burst about 15 to 18 rounds on our vehicle, all at once."

"It looked like he was trying to kill us. There's no doubt about it," Lindsey said. "We were face-to-face with him. He just put the weapon out the window and let go a burst."

Lindsey said his bulletproof vest saved his life. "The vest comes in play, I promise you," he said with a nervous laugh.

It was later determined that McLendon was armed with two high powered assault rifles, a Soviet-made SKS and a Bushmaster. He also had at least one . 38 caliber pistol, police said. He fired more than 200 rounds, police said at a news conference today.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=7055006&page=1


The type of Bushmaster was not specified.

From the article I find it interesting how many of the shooter's victims were armed at the time and yet still helpless to defend themselves. Perhaps if they had been manning their cash registers and driving their cars while simultaneously scanning their surroundings with a loaded weapon? Then maybe they could've gotten a round or two off before being sprayed with bullets? :eyes:

[slackmaster]

84. Those Bushmasters are gnarly

[AtheistCrusader]

88. So much FUD in that person's statement.

How can you possibly mistake an AR15 or M16 with an AK-47? They look nothing alike.

[Barack_America]

91. Probably when you only saw the gun when bullets were flying at you.

That would be my guess.

Would you really keep your head exposed in order to better study the finer details of the weapon firing upon you?

Or perhaps this small town sheriff isn't much interested in firearms aside from his service weapon.

Anything's possible.

[DonP]

92. Reporter ignorance

is probably the case. To most reporters every gun is either "a large capacity semi automatic pistol" or an "AK-47" and out of their ignorance, therefore a machine gun.

They know nothing about the subject but feel free to speculate based on third party observations in matters like this.

I don't expect the victim to know. I do expect the reporter to exercise some due diligence to get the facts before they start writing.

[Barack_America]

93. Edited.

Wrong quote.

My apologies.

Here's an update from the District Attorney:

"Gary L. McAliley, the district attorney for Coffee and Pike counties, said investigators found notes at McLendon's mother's house with the names of local residents that listed the perceived injustices they had committed toward McLendon. McLendon apparently set the house ablaze after shooting Lisa White McLendon, 52, in the head and killing her three dogs.

He then took off down state Highway 52 in a little red Mitsubishi, passing by bucolic scenes of rye grass, cows and hay bales as he plotted his next slayings. McAliley said he was armed with at least two pistols and two assault rifles -- one of them an illegal automatic. A number of his victims would also be close family members -- but officials said they could not yet say why."

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-alabama-shootings12-2009mar12,0,3328612.story?page=1

[MichaelHarris]

95. you made some really good points

from trying to tell a poster that victims really don't have time to tell the difference between an AK and an M-16 to your last post quoting the DA. It's unfortunate the information you gathered fell on deaf ears.

To prove the fruitlessness of this argument all you have to do is scroll up and look for a post where the guy wants to discuss the differences between an assault rifle and an assault weapon and then his second point claims it may have been an illegally converted weapon.

You summed it it up very nicely in one post where you asked, "From the article I find it interesting how many of the shooter's victims were armed at the time and yet still helpless to defend themselves. Perhaps if they had been manning their cash registers and driving their cars while simultaneously scanning their surroundings with a loaded weapon? Then maybe they could've gotten a round or two off before being sprayed with bullets?"

That is without a doubt the best question of the thread, sadly one they won't answer.

[AtheistCrusader]

97. Actually, if that quote (which wasn't available when this thread started) is accurate

I eagerly await more information on how he came into possession of a highly controlled, rare weapon.

For instance, in my state, there is no legal option for me to purchase a fully automatic weapon. Period. Elsewhere, that weapon, if legal, would cost over $10,000. There is a limited, small pool of these weapons, and they require registration, and a full background check, not just a NICS check.


I feel terrible for the victims. Even if they had been carrying concealed pistols, that's really long odds against some vicious attacker with a fully automatic rifle. I would like to point out your snide comment at the beginning about the AWB was pointless, as it never banned this class of weapon, nor is it an 'assault weapon', it's a machine gun.

[Barack_America]

110. Thank you.

The LA Times article I linked was particularly interesting as it gave a crude timeline of the events. What I found particularly shocking was how long it took police to learn about and respond to the shootings and how seemingly helpless they were when they did. Every time I read the nuts on FR go off about arming themselves to the teeth in response to the "librul socialist takeover", I think to myself how I hope local law enforcement is able to deal with these nuts when they inevitably snap. Apparently not. Ironic isn't it how paranoia about Islamic terrorism has helped to produce a real and dangerous domestic terrorism threat, no? IMO, we've been equipping and training our law enforcement to combat the wrong terrorists.

[AtheistCrusader]

111. Excellent point.

Domestic terrorists like Timothy McVeigh have (had) a large capacity for destruction in the United States. How quickly we forget when distracted.

[yagotme]

133. I see a small discrepancy

in your post. In the second line, you state that you were shocked as to how long it took the police to find out about the attack and then respond, and then you state your worries about "nuts" arming themseles to the teeth. Maybe some of the "nuts" know about police response times.

[AtheistCrusader]

96. One would think they would actually look at the weapon after they found it on his body.

How can you possibly know the manufacturer of a weapon, without knowing the make/model/type?

Edit: and again, lazy, inaccurate reporting. The SKS is not only not an assault rifle, it's not even an assault weapon, having a fixed 10 round, internal magazine. To say nothing of the laughable idea the 7.62x39mm is 'high powered'. Yes it can kill, but no, it is not 'high powered', unless you want to call a 7.62x54mm 'supermegaholycrap powered'.

[Barack_America]

109. These were, I believe, State Troopers.

The suspect was, if I remember correctly, pursued by local police officers, who were at the scene when the suspect killed himself.

If so, it's possible that the police officer quoted in the article never got a good look at the weapons. However, your point that the media often reports "facts" about firearms without confirming them still stands.

On edit, I got that backwards, it was the local police who encountered him in the parking lot and gave the description of the gun and the state trooper encountered him at the place where he killed himself. Still, different scenes, different cops.

[jeepnstein]

105. There may be an element of truth in this...

If I recall correctly, some early Bushmaster AR15's were very easy to convert. I don't recall the specifics but they lacked a block in the lower that meant all one had to do was drill one hole and install an M16 fire control group. They even shipped from the factory with a full-auto bolt instead of the AR bolt. If one is intent on making an illegal machine gun an early Bushmaster is a good place to start. Of course, once you even gather the parts to do the conversion you've shown "constructive intent" and are ripe for a trip to the slammer so don't try this at home. AR's built since 1986, I think is the date, have a block in the lower that all but renders them incapable of being converted. A machinist could probably do it but then again a machinist could do one from scratch.

Class III guys, was it legal to register a lower with the NFA and convert it before 1986?

[benEzra]

118. Early Colts, not early Bushmasters (Colt was the only AR-15 manufacturer back then)

and yes, it was legal to convert a pre-1986 as long as you filled out the proper paperwork with the BATFE, and waited for them to thoroughly check you out and issue you a Form 4. That process was closed in 1986, and the Hughes Amendment to the McClure-Volkmer Act required that all new civilian semiautos (including civilian AR-15's) be difficult to convert, hence the 1986 receiver changes.

[jeepnstein]

120. Bushmaster was...

in business back then. I clearly remember seeing one that was pre-86 without the block. It also had a full-auto bolt. At the time a good friend was considering using it as a host for a RDIAS but didn't do it. He later sold the Bushmaster in about 1989. Since it was of questionable virtue after the laws had changed I turned down an offer to buy it very cheaply. It was a nice little rifle.

I think they've been in business since the late seventies.

The only reason I'm bringing this up is because of the Press making an issue of it being a Bushmaster and some reports that it was full-auto. This could very well be one of those illegal conversions that folks insist is still easy to do. That's just not the case anymore.

[benEzra]

122. I didn't realize Bushmaster went that far back.

But even a pre-1986, old-style-receiver Colt or Bushmaster still is not easily convertible without a DIAS, and it takes significant skills to manufacture one, which is presumably why pre-1986 AR's are still Title 1 and not Title 2 (unlike pre-'86 open-bolt semiautos, which are now Title 2). The receiver changes make a post-1986 AR difficult to convert even with a DIAS, but DIAS's themselves are NFA Title 2 restricted machineguns from the standpoint of Federal law, and they are controlled and tracked like machineguns.

I have read, though, that this guy was some sort of supervisor for a while at a factory that had machine tools, so I suppose it's possible he had the skills and industrial equipment to manufacture one. Or, maybe the reports of automatic fire were in error, who knows (wouldn't be the first time).

[jeepnstein]

123. I've never done it or seen it done...

It's my understanding that on a pre-86 Bushmaster a guy with a milling machine can use a FA fire control group after a bit of work. I'm not even going to say what kind of work that entails over the internet. Buying the FA group would raise all sorts of red flags depending on the source. The Bushmaster would have had most of the components necessary if it were pre-86. One of these guns puts you right on the ragged edge of "constructive intent" and there is a case of a guy getting jailed because he had one that doubled frequently. I wouldn't touch an old Bushmaster with a ten foot pole.

Colt was way ahead of Bushmaster in complying with the '86 law, wonder why? I would not be a bit surprised they knew it was coming way ahead of the competition.

This is all wild speculation. We'll have to see how the final reporting describes the firearm.

[Tejas]

101. Only a complete idiot would

hold the actions of one individual against the rest of the firearms enthusiasts of this country.

On the other hand, only the most desperate attention-whore would want to capitalize on a tragedy by calling for an AWB.

[gorfle]

102. "never used in a crime"

The cool thing is this guy used their favorite weapon, you know, the one they claim is never used in a crime:

No one claims that assault rifles are never used in crime, only that they are hardly ever used in homicides. Twice as many people are killed annually by hands and feet than by assault rifles.

[AtheistCrusader]

107. Ahem, assault WEAPONS good sir.

Unless you meant to include deaths in war and crime around the world.

The handful of crimes committed each year with select fire weapons in the US are largely illegal possession, an even tinier subset of those are homicides with a select fire weapon. Crimes committed with legally acquired select fire weapons are vanishingly small.

[gorfle]

108. He speaks of an M16

What he quotes speaks of an M16, which is an assault rifle.

FBI statistics indicate that all rifles, let alone assault rifles, account for less than 3% of annual homicides. This is roughly half as many as attributed to hands and feet.

[russ1943]

112. STATISTICS ARE TRAILING

Crime Control Digest; October 13, 2006 ; Anonymous; 44 words... Mobile Police Deputy Chief James Barber attributed the rise in the city's homicide rate to the increasing use of military-style weapons. Five homicides in 2005 involved assault rifles compared to none in 2004, Barber said. Mobile's homicides climbed from 27 in 2004 to 35 in 2005.
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P3-1186813481.html

The statistics are not clear obviously. They also suffer from a time lag. Whether or not police and or reporters are using the term assault rifles when they should be saying assault weapon is irrelevant to the general public.

Statistics bear the ugly truth. In the years since the ban expired, more assault weapons have been used to kill and maim in South Florida and the nation. One in five homicides in Miami in 2007 was committed with an assault weapon. In 2004, they were involved in only 4 percent of homicides. (From 4% to 20%)The Miami Herald http://www.mcclatchydc.com/337/v-print/story/61477.html ban is long overdue

The Democratic party platform has had a commitment to renew an assault weapons ban since Kerry's campaign, and the majority of people in this country support that effort.

[benEzra]

115. Rifle crime stats only lag about 1 year...

in the FBI UCR, and there was no post-2004 increase. Not surprising, considering that AR-15 type rifles and civilian AK lookalikes WERE NOT BANNED 1994-2004, and therefore were not "legalized" in 2004; there was no change in availability, and prices on new rifles and full-capacity magazines were far lower then than now. My own civilian AK is a 2002 model.



Here's how it differs from a pre-1994 or post-2004 non-automatic civilian AK:



Care to suggest which of those alterations is causing the alleged spike in rifle crime?

[jeepnstein]

116. In South Florida?

The use of AK's has increased. I'd say the reason was a Haitian street gang, the name escapes me, that decided to start using AK's. They also use machetes when the situation calls for it.

Most of the killing is being fueled by the drug trade. Time bombs like the guy in Alabama? I have no answer for how to predict that kind of behavior if his own family and co-workers didn't see it coming. Go after the gangs if you really want to reduce violence in American Society.

[benEzra]

117. Florida is the only state I know of that doesn't report murder weapon type to the FBI...

but legal availability of civilian AK's hasn't changed in Florida or anywhere else in the last 23 years, except to become more restrictive. I bought mine in Florida in 2002, as I stated upthread.

IF south Florida gangs are indeed making increased use of AK's (and it's not just the same old Timoney/Miami Herald pro-ban lobbying), I wonder how much of that is due to Timoney and his lapdogs in the south Florida press constantly telling his local criminals how awesome AK's are, the magical powers they have (don't even have to be aimed!! weapons of mass destruction!! we cower in fear!!), and how any criminal with half a brain would be using them.

[Jackson1999]

119. Lol good point

Seriously, every time they talk on the issue they basically say "Hey gangs, if you don't use AKs then you are all a bunch of pussies.

[AtheistCrusader]

127. That is an unfortunate, and troubling point.

Sure hope you're wrong, but it does seem plausible.

[jeepnstein]

121. Zoe Pound

That's their name. They're a nasty bunch.