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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 03:04 PM
Original message
DE state police look at mental health records for gun purchases, ACLU concerned.
Gun checks may violate federal law

Secret 'superchecks' let state police look at mental health records
The checks have resulted in confiscation of weapons, some for legitimate reasons, but have subjected many citizens to a search of mental health records that in most cases police would be unable to access.

* * * * * * * * * * * *

Drewry Fennell, executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Delaware, said that in the context of federal law, someone's mental health history is surrounded by "robust protections."

"There's a clear directive that they're not supposed to be used for general law enforcement purposes," Fennell said. "There are a couple of exceptions in the regulations, but there is no exception to support a general law enforcement query."

* * * * * * * * * * * *


STATE POLICE CAN VIEW RECORDS OF MENTAL PATIENTS
The Department of Health and Social Services maintains a database of all adults who have been involuntarily committed for mental illness in public and private facilities, which would prohibit firearms ownership, Jay Lynch, spokesman for Department of Health and Social Services Secretary Vince Meconi, said in an e-mail.

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amdezurik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 03:06 PM
Response to Original message
1. but but but
I thought the NRA kept saying the ACLU was just a bunch of "gun-grabbers" and all card carrying members shot down in the street?
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JonQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
2. I think it's a good idea to scan
for mental health issues before selling the individual a firearm, so long as it's used only as intended; to deny firearms to mentally unstable and dangerous individuals who could not be trusted with them. A fine line, but that's why we have people keeping an eye on such things.
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amdezurik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. except of course
Edited on Mon Dec-01-08 04:07 PM by amdezurik
cops have shown themselves incapable of doing any such thing as act reasonably. They will either collect it then trot it out late to justify shooting an unarmed person or they will leak it to discredit any critic of their policies.
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JonQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Probably true
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old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #2
8. OK, but what mental health issues? You know, most
psych people will state that it is impossible to predict a person's actions, and you can't hold someone legally responsible for something you think he might do in the future.

I am a gun owner, have been for over 50 years, but there are many people who, in my opinion, should never own a gun. I also know people who should never have had kids, or got married, or done one thing or another, but there is NO LEGAL REASON to alter this person's status.
I can't stop someone from having kids just because I believe they are sick Nazi bastards, or brutal thugs, or whatever.

If a person has not violated the law, the law has no say over their actions.

mark
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Indy Lurker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. what mental health issues?

"what mental health issues?"


Any that are severe enough to require an involuntary stay at a metal health facility.
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Testament Donating Member (129 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #13
20. Deleted by me...misunderstood checks discussed. n/t
Edited on Tue Dec-02-08 12:29 AM by Testament
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DonP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #13
25. That wouldn't have stopped Cho from the V-Tech shootings.
Cho was never committed. He had teachers and others that thought they were helping him by keeping him off the radar and out of an institution, in spite of his strange behavior.

Here in Illinois, if you are involuntarily OR Voluntarily confined to an institution you sign a paper acknowledging that it will be reported to the state police and will end your right to own a firearm. I had a family member commit herself for a short stay and the admitting physican/counselor explained it to her in great detail who would be notified of her commitment and what the consequences might be.
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JonQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #8
24. I don't know
violent delusions for one. I am sure there are plenty of people who shouldn't be trusted with guns, but I'm not a psychologist. Like I said, it's a slippery slope and overzealous application would be a grave concern.

But that shooter in west virginia (I think) should have been denied a gun for psychiatric reasons, for one example.
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. A better plan.
A better plan would be to require that whenever a qualifying mental health event happens to an individual health care providers would be required to report this to the NICS database.

No details would need to be filed. Simply a red flag raised.
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Testament Donating Member (129 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #14
21. The [dis]qualifying event is dealt with by the courts, not the therapist of mental hospital. n/t
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ManiacJoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
4. More than just the ACLU should be concerned.
The fact that the DE state police see this as necessary suggests that DE is not correctly entering the required mental health data into the federal databases used by the NICS checks.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. "Barack Obama would repeal the Tiahrt Amendment" so he may support the DE state police's actions. nt
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ManiacJoe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Does the Tiahrt Amendment apply here?
That is about ownership traces, right?

Regarding the mental health records, it would seem reasonable that the amount of data required for a denial would not need to be that detailed at least for doing the phone checks by the dealers.
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I don't believe Tiahrt applies here. I wonder if police also find that applicants have been treated
voluntarily for mental health issues, e.g. a veteran suffering from PTSD?
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I wonder whether you've been abducted by little green people

I certainly have as much basis for expressing that wonderment in public as you have for wondering whether police also find that applicants have been treated voluntarily for mental health issues -- given as how what you quoted said (and I emphasize):

STATE POLICE CAN VIEW RECORDS OF MENTAL PATIENTS
The Department of Health and Social Services maintains a database of all adults who have been involuntarily committed for mental illness in public and private facilities


Hmm.

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. kinda, eh?

That was my first thought: that this is information that is supposed to be available on a NICS check, and all jurisdictions are supposed to have beefed up their reporting of this information for that purpose since the Cho incident at least.

And pretty much everybody here fully supported the (in my opinion) completely unjustifiable violation of medical privacy that "entering the required mental health data into the federal databases used by the NICS checks" constitutes.



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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. The data is not entered.
And pretty much everybody here fully supported the (in my opinion) completely unjustifiable violation of medical privacy that "entering the required mental health data into the federal databases used by the NICS checks" constitutes.

It is my understanding that NICS does not contain the particulars of your medical history. It simply contains a "yes" or "no" flag for an invalidating mental health issue.

Now you may consider even that data an unjustifiable violation of medical privacy, but I don't. I have no problem with the federal government keeping a list of people who have been adjudicated mentally defective or involuntarily admitted to a mental institution or incompetent to handle their own affairs, or people found not guilty by reason of insanity or found incompetent to stand trial.

I'm surprised with your national health care system that the government doesn't have extensive medical records on everyone.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. sometimes I think it must be true what they say

I'm surprised with your national health care system that the government doesn't have extensive medical records on everyone.

Because sometimes it really does look as if yer average US resident is just clueless.

"The government", when it comes to health care, is the individual provincial health insurance plans.

Those administrations have the same records on me as your insurance company has on you.

We are currently in the process of computerizing medical records so that histories can be accessed by anyone with the authority to do that -- that is, any health care professional to whom I have given my OHIP card and from whom I am seeking health care.

This is expected to significantly reduce administrative overhead and guard against problems like dangerous drug incompatibilities. The gap on the administrative costs score being a major reason why per capital health care spending is so much higher, for so much less coverage, in the US than in Canada:

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/short/349/8/768
In 1999, health administration costs totaled at least $294.3 billion in the United States, or $1,059 per capita, as compared with $307 per capita in Canada. After exclusions, administration accounted for 31.0 percent of health care expenditures in the United States and 16.7 percent of health care expenditures in Canada. Canada’s national health insurance program had overhead of 1.3 percent; the overhead among Canada’s private insurers was higher than that in the United States (13.2 percent vs. 11.7 percent). Providers’ administrative costs were far lower in Canada.

Between 1969 and 1999, the share of the U.S. health care labor force accounted for by administrative workers grew from 18.2 percent to 27.3 percent. In Canada, it grew from 16.0 percent in 1971 to 19.1 percent in 1996. (Both nations’ figures exclude insurance-industry personnel.)

conclusions
The gap between U.S. and Canadian spending on health care administration has grown to $752 per capita. A large sum might be saved in the United States if administrative costs could be trimmed by implementing a Canadian-style health care system.


Anyway.

Why it would even occur to you to think that standards of medical privacy would be lower in Canada than in the US ... I'm the one who's clueless, on that.


Anyway.

It is my understanding that NICS does not contain the particulars of your medical history. It simply contains a "yes" or "no" flag for an invalidating mental health issue.

There doesn't seem to be anything firm on which to base a belief that the information available in this instance exceeds that.
STATE POLICE CAN VIEW RECORDS OF MENTAL PATIENTS
The Department of Health and Social Services maintains a database of all adults who have been involuntarily committed for mental illness in public and private facilities, which would prohibit firearms ownership ...

Myself, I would want to know what data are available to police before having any opinion about the matter. If the database is simply a compilation of the names of adults who have been involuntarily committed, it is scarcely different from the yes/no NICS outcome.

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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Canadian health care information.
Edited on Mon Dec-01-08 11:23 PM by gorfle
sometimes I think it must be true what they say Because sometimes it really does look as if yer average US resident is just clueless.

Well I'm certainly clueless about Canadian health care. I thought it was a nationalized system administered at the "federal" level (or whatever you call it in Canada)

"The government", when it comes to health care, is the individual provincial health insurance plans.

Those administrations have the same records on me as your insurance company has on you.


Are "provinces" like "states" here? So instead of the health information being possessed at the federal level, it's held at the state level?

We are currently in the process of computerizing medical records so that histories can be accessed by anyone with the authority to do that -- that is, any health care professional to whom I have given my OHIP card and from whom I am seeking health care.

What about the people who interview people for firearm licenses? Do they have access to this information? I think you told me this before but I don't remember.

Why it would even occur to you to think that standards of medical privacy would be lower in Canada than in the US ... I'm the one who's clueless, on that.

I just assumed that since it was a government-run health care system that the government would have your health care records, and would avail themselves to that information when deciding whether or not you can own a firearm.

There doesn't seem to be anything firm on which to base a belief that the information available in this instance exceeds that.

STATE POLICE CAN VIEW RECORDS OF MENTAL PATIENTS
The Department of Health and Social Services maintains a database of all adults who have been involuntarily committed for mental illness in public and private facilities, which would prohibit firearms ownership ...


Myself, I would want to know what data are available to police before having any opinion about the matter. If the database is simply a compilation of the names of adults who have been involuntarily committed, it is scarcely different from the yes/no NICS outcome.

I agree. I thought you were commenting on NICS though.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. details ...
Edited on Tue Dec-02-08 12:04 AM by iverglas

Well I'm certainly clueless about Canadian health care. I thought it was a nationalized system administered at the "federal" level (or whatever you call it in Canada)

Nope. Provincial jurisdiction under the 1867 constitution. By consensus over the last few decades, funding provided by the feds under the federal spending power. To receive funding, 10 provinces (and three territories) must adhere to the principles in the federal Canada Health Act with its 5 pillars, universality, portability, blah blah.

Provinces fund differently and cover differently. Some are tax-funded, some have nominal premiums (e.g. British Columbia, sliding income-based scale from $0 to something like $100/month max regardless of family size).

Some provinces cover prescriptions and dental care. Most don't. Everything else is covered. No co-pays ("extra billing") are allowed, there is no annual or other deductible, there is no lifetime max, etc.

Are "provinces" like "states" here? So instead of the health information being possessed at the federal level, it's held at the state level?

Yes. But specifically by the health insurance administration of the province, e.g. what's commonly known as OHIP (actually its old name) in Ontario. Hugely tight privacy restrictions. A Minister of Health once had to resign because she mentioned someone's name in the provincial legislature -- the person had been filing complaints and seeking media attention and it was her understanding that his name was public, but it actually wasn't. Once in a while somebody finds some records in a dumpster and all hell breaks loose (I can think of once this happened).

What about the people who interview people for firearm licenses? Do they have access to this information? I think you told me this before but I don't remember.

Perhaps unfortunately not. I have never actually figured out just how such information is supposed to come to the Firearms Officer's attention. Providing two references is one safeguard. I imagine they are asked about mental health. Spouse (which includes common-law / same-sex, we don't distinguish) has to sign off on the application.

I like the idea of physicians having a duty to report disqualifying conditions in the same way as for drivers' licences, I think. Question is what they would be. I do not agree that involuntary admission to a mental health facility should be a disqualifier in all cases, although obviously it would be in most (delusions and suicidal depression being obvious examples).


I just assumed that since it was a government-run health care system that the government would have your health care records, and would avail themselves to that information when deciding whether or not you can own a firearm.

Nope. Actually, privacy legislation in Canada is probably as tight as it gets anywhere in the world. If anyone other than an authorized health care provider (i.e. authorized by both the plan and the patient) or an authorized insurance plan employee accessed health care information, all hell really would break loose.

What you folks down there really have no grasp of is that the Canadian population in general is extremely stroppy.

We got same-sex marriage, and pension and other rights for same-sex partners, by going to court. We got equal employment-insurance parental-leave benefits (i.e. fathers and mothers) by going to court. We got voting rights for prisoners by going to court. We got a whole package of minority language rights by going to court repeatedly (and it continues). We go to court at the drop of a hat. People go to court when they're denied firearms licences. And win.



edited because I put an apostrophe in the possessive pronoun its and I am deeply ashamed
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gorfle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. On Canadian health care.
Yes. But specifically by the health insurance administration of the province, e.g. what's commonly known as OHIP (actually its old name) in Ontario. Hugely tight privacy restrictions. A Minister of Health once had to resign because she mentioned someone's name in the provincial legislature -- the person had been filing complaints and seeking media attention and it was her understanding that his name was public, but it actually wasn't. Once in a while somebody finds some records in a dumpster and all hell breaks loose (I can think of once this happened).

So it sounds to me like your Provinces have a department that keeps and maintains all its citizens health care information. I don't understand your criticism of providing this sort of information to our NICS system when you said:

And pretty much everybody here fully supported the (in my opinion) completely unjustifiable violation of medical privacy that "entering the required mental health data into the federal databases used by the NICS checks" constitutes.

Like I said before, I don't think NICS actually keeps any health data details, but even if it did - if you've got government agencies successfully keeping patient health care details why can't we?

I gather your problem is that in this case State Police were pawing through a State list of people who have been involuntarily admitted to mental institutions to vet people for firearm ownership.

I have to say, I'm pretty cynical about the whole thing. I figure once "the government" has your data, they've got your data, and they are going to use it however it suits them. So I figure once you trust your health data to the government, you might as well trust them to use it to help control firearm access.

Perhaps unfortunately not. I have never actually figured out just how such information is supposed to come to the Firearms Officer's attention. Providing two references is one safeguard. I imagine they are asked about mental health. Spouse (which includes common-law / same-sex, we don't distinguish) has to sign off on the application.

I like the idea of physicians having a duty to report disqualifying conditions in the same way as for drivers' licences, I think. Question is what they would be. I do not agree that involuntary admission to a mental health facility should be a disqualifier in all cases, although obviously it would be in most (delusions and suicidal depression being obvious examples).


I agree, I'd much rather have the Health Care Department create a "disqualified" list for the Law Enforcement Department to use for vetting firearm ownership, rather than direct access to the health care information.

Nope. Actually, privacy legislation in Canada is probably as tight as it gets anywhere in the world. If anyone other than an authorized health care provider (i.e. authorized by both the plan and the patient) or an authorized insurance plan employee accessed health care information, all hell really would break loose.

I just have no faith in my government to do such a good job. Now I'm all for national health care, and I hope we get it, but I don't hold out much hope in the data being kept terribly secure. Every month or so I read a story about some notebook computer lost with hundreds of thousands of financial or medical records on it. And hopefully with a new administration things will be different, but under the last 8 years of administration I would fully expect such data to be fully and completely mined for helping "fight the war on terror", for example.

What you folks down there really have no grasp of is that the Canadian population in general is extremely stroppy.

LOL I had to google that one.

Around here there is a saying, "You can't fight City Hall". Unless you can get an interested party to financially underwrite your cause, you've got virtually no chance of making the government act through the courts.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #22
26. hmm

So it sounds to me like your Provinces have a department that keeps and maintains all its citizens health care information.

No, actually. The provinces have ministries/departments or agencies that maintain health insurance information.

This is still the common confusion. It is health insurance that is provided by the public/governmental authority, not health care. Health care is provided by doctors (most of them in private practice), other practitioners (e.g. physiotherapists in private practice), and at hospitals (all but the grandfathered ones publicly owned and operated by foundations). The health care is paid for by the public insurance plan.

So the insurance thingy has records of the codes under which practitioners and hospitals billed the plan, for each service provided. I don't actually think the codes would indicate, for example, whether time spent in a mental health facility was as a voluntary or involuntary patient. It would just be billed at the daily hospital rate, plus any service provided by a doctor that was billed separately.

My OHIP record might not even show that. I go to a community health centre that has doctors on salary, and payment to the centre is on a per capita basis, not a fee-for-service basis.

This might help -- it is talking indirectly about physician fraud in billing the plan, basically (every couple of years some doctor who managed to see 3 patients in every 15-minute slot turns up on the media radar):

http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/providers/program/ohip/bulletins/4000/bul4413.html
Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care audit functions include:

Claims Records Review (‘Direct Recovery’)
When the General Manager can determine that claims to the Ontario Health Insurance Plan (“OHIP”) are incorrect based on a review of billing records, the General Manager may initiate a recovery of funds pursuant to the Health Insurance Act. If a physician disputes the General Manager’s decision, he or she may appeal to the TPAP within 15 days of notice of the decision.

Medical Records Review
When a review of the medical records is required, OHIP will notify the physician of the General Manager’s concerns. The physician then has two options: (1) he or she may choose to wait to be audited when the new audit process is available following Justice Cory’s recommendations for change, if any, or, (2) he or she may choose to undergo a ministry audit. If the physician then disputes the ministry’s decision, he or she may appeal the decision to the TPAP within 15 days of notice of the decision.

So there would be authorized access to medical records for the purpose of auditing the doctor (and presumably other providers/billers) only.

This is where the huge cost reductions in administrative expenses come in. Doctors commonly use commercial software for billing the plans (I see $199/year for one such). Plug in the service code, the fee is entered automatically, the bill goes to the plan electronically, the doctor gets paid. No discussions with the insurer, ever. No farting around with a dozen different insurers' requirements. No collecting from the patient.

So -- for any third party to know a person's actual medical history, access to the actual medical records would be needed. The insurance plan's records will just say "15-minute office consultation" or some such thing for most visits, I imagine.

These electronic medical records thingies are different. It's somewhat new so I'm not entirely sure about it.

https://www.ontariomd.ca/portal/server.pt/gateway/PTARGS_0_2_2913_477_0_43/http%3B/www.ontariomd_secure.ca/guides_admin/guideviewer.html?guide=tsp&chap=1&page=1
What is a CMS?

A Clinical Management System (CMS) is a software application that combines the clinical and administrative aspects of practice management into an integrated electronic record. The CMS encompasses and manages all aspects of practice management and patient care – from appointment scheduling and billing to clinical encounter notes, medications, test results and a cumulative patient profile.

With a CMS, practice and patient records can be created, stored, accessed and managed electronically. Clinical Management Systems support improved patient care through:

* Integrated clinical and practice management
* Secure, sharable, electronic medical records
* Enhanced diagnostic and prescribing capabilities
* Delivery of preventive care programs
* Interfaces with other healthcare provider services e.g., lab results
* Enhanced accessibility from home or other locations
* Population-based studies, statistical analyses and reports on patient data

Clinical Management Systems reduce:

* Duplication of effort
* Lost or misplaced patient charts
* File storage space requirements

Aha.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/healthcare/records.html
Health records
Canada lags in electronic medical records
January 28, 2008

They can save lives, and although the up-front cost of implementation is significant, in the long run they can save money, too. Yet among developed countries, Canada is one of the slowest in putting electronic medical records to work.

"I think there's been a failure to recognize just how important it is," said Dr. Brian Day, president of the Canadian Medical Association. "And it's certainly costing a lot of money not to have information."

An electronic medical record is a computerized store of a patient's medical information.

... A simpler way of thinking about an electronic health record is that it's a system that helps ensure anyone who deals with a patient has access to all the information about that patient.

That can be a lifesaver, Day says. He notes that 7.5 per cent of people admitted to hospital experience some kind of adverse effect while undergoing treatment. Many of these — caused by drug interactions, allergies and the like — could be prevented if information about the patient were more readily available, he said.

Canadians can take some comfort from the fact that our pitiful adoption rate of EMRs is matched by one other country in the study: the United States. Canada is "leaps and bounds" ahead of the U.S. in this respect, Alvarez said, although we still fall far behind countries such as the United Kingdom.

Heh.

But again -- this information is available only to health care providers, and only when they are treating the patient.


I gather your problem is that in this case State Police were pawing through a State list of people who have been involuntarily admitted to mental institutions to vet people for firearm ownership.

Actually, I'm not convinced they were -- it isn't clear that the database they have access to consists of any more than identifying info (there would have to be names + birthdates and ID numbers of some sort I imagine) about people who have been involuntarily committed.

It's the fact that there is such a database that includes people who have no desire to access firearms.

If I had been involuntarily committed to a mental health facility, I would want that information confined to my medical records, to which only health care providers have access. I would NOT want it being entered into ANY other database ANYWHERE to which ANYONE else had access.

The problem I have is that the current system in the US requires that this medical information be disclosed to a third party - whatever it is that administers the NICS system - without the consent of the patient, and for reasons that have nothing to do with the patient's interests. If I were in the US, and had been involuntarily committed to a facility (or declared to be incompetent), and had no interest in ever accessing a firearm, I would object strenuously to my personal info being disclosed in that way.

It actually makes more sense to me to have public health authorities maintain the database and allow it to be searched for a particular name, when a particular person attempts to acquire a firearm.

This would mean an interim step between vendor and relevant information: vendor seeks authorization from NICS, NICS queries database of ineligible people kept by public health authority. The person attempting to acquire the firearm would be consenting to that disclosure by filling out the NICS form. And people who never filled out a NICS form would not have their personal medical info floating around in a database maintained for reasons having nothing to do with their health care and accessible by people who are not involved in their health care.

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Indy Lurker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
12. It dosen't look like the police get to see the mental health records
Only that an individual has a mental health record of being involuntarily committed.

A list of names of people who have been involuntarily committed. This would seem to be necessary to do a proper firearms background check.


The bigger concern, is who the police get to check.


There should be reasonable suspicion of wrongdoing to check someone's firearm eligibility, just like there needs to be some reasonable suspicion of wrongdoing to stop a driver and run their license.





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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-01-08 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
18. Involuntary commitment is a legal matter why look at medical records.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-02-08 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. That was my initial reaction too
:hi:
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