Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Overcoming the Image Problem

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Guns Donate to DU
 
virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 11:51 AM
Original message
Overcoming the Image Problem
Outstanding read! With audio!

http://www.wvmetronews.com/outdoors.cfm?func=displayfullstory&storyid=26413

It's got a little bit of a P-R problem, but only among people who either don't know or won't make the effort to find out that this thing works like every other semi-auto, one pull of the trigger, one shot," said Gresham.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
1. Would probably be banned under reinstated assault weapons ban supported by Obama/Biden and Dem
platform written by DLC.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
virginia mountainman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Oct-08-08 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. I know...Took us 14 years to undue the damage to the party too..
In 2008, they are far, far more popular among sport shooters, than they was in 1994...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jeepnstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. Sport shooting isn't what they're about.
The AR is, among a few others, one of a few firearms that should be specifically protected under the 2nd Amendment. It's a useful tool in the hands of a militia. Personally, I think it's probably a better choice for lightly trained folks than it's full-auto sibling. The AR is a fighting gun and we'd be less than honest to describe it any other way. No, I don't believe we should be preparing for an armed insurrection or anything dumb like that but it's important that citizens never take that option off the table.

Wow, I can't believe I'm saying that because I'm just a liberal as it gets in this part of Appalachia. To disarm our citizenry is to say that we no longer accept the notion that armed resistance to oppressive government is a basic human right. That goes right back to our revolutionary roots in this country. Take away the Second Amendment and we have nothing left to protect the First.

If you think an armed citizenry isn't important, look up the Battle of Blair Mountain.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tburnsten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Or the battle of Athens, Tennessee.
Just read about Blair Mountain, that is unreal. Those two incidents should be a part of every students history curriculum, it is important for people to know about the source of things such as the eight-hour work day and workers comp, and they are historically monumental events.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jeepnstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. It could happen again.
I'm working on the campaign with a guy who can remember, as a child, his house getting shot up by company men in Mingo County. His mother took them to Pikeville and went in hiding for a while. Yes, Virginia, they did drop bombs on the workers and Billy Mitchell was in it up to his eyeballs. They'd do it again in a heartbeat if they could. One should consider the history of worker's rights in this country before abolishing the 2nd Amendment.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 05:27 AM
Response to Original message
3. Makes me very angry to know that the people threatening my
right to own guns don't even take the trouble th learn what they are talking about.
They get their information from movies, I guess, or from the anti-gun cultists who give them slogans instead of facts, and just encourage hatred of guns and gun owners.

I remember when I first put up a pro gun post here, I was vilified and insulted by a regular contributer. She attacked everything about me from my political affiliation to my sanity and morality.

This kind of craziness is very similar to what the Republicans are doing right now, yet the anti-gun Democrats can not see the similarities.

We have to get the Democratic Party THINKING instead of reacting to buzzwords - we can not affore to do this stupid stuff all over again.
We are not Europe - or Canada - and we should not copy their failed policy of confiscation and facism.

mark
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-08 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. aawwwww


I remember when I first put up a pro gun post here, I was vilified and insulted by a regular contributer. She attacked everything about me from my political affiliation to my sanity and morality.

Did she then, sweetums? Here, let me kiss it better. Then I'll show you a copy of the site rules that you may have neglected to read.

But my goodness --

They get their information from movies, I guess, or from the anti-gun cultists who give them slogans instead of facts, and just encourage hatred of guns and gun owners.

-- what a fine job you do of turning the other cheek. You get vilified and insulted, and you yourself have nothing but respectful, honest things to say about those who disagree with you. They're morons with a penchant for marching goosestep, this obviously being the pinnacle of plaudits in your pantheon of praise. Gosh, I wonder what you say about people you want to vilify and insult.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Tejas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-11-08 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. did you have a point?
"Then I'll show you a copy of the site rules that you may have neglected to read."


Concerning what?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 09:08 AM
Response to Original message
6. I'm sure the Old School said the same things about military-style bolt-actions...
when they took the civilian shooting world by storm in the early to mid 20th century. But their sheer popularity among lawful shooters and hunters eventually made them the norm rather than the exception.

I think "black rifles" are well along that road now.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-08 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. Interesting. I just read an article on Custer - the US Army was using
sincle shot breech loading rifles (Springfield trapdoors) while a very large number of their attackers used lever rifles holding maybe 8-10 shots. The soldiers simply could not load each cartridge and fire their weapons rapidly enough and all were killed. The 1880's bolt action magazine rifles you mentioned would have been a real advantage over either weapon used in that fight.

old hussein
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-12-08 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Same weapon used at Wounded Knee, no reports of problems...
Edited on Sun Oct-12-08 01:08 AM by happyslug
The problem with Custer's defeat was NOT that the Indians had Winchesters with 8-9 shoots in a Tubular magazine. The problem was the sheer number of Indians involved. Remember Custer attacked the largest collection of Plain Tribes even known to occur.

The problem with Tubular magazine is it is almost impossible to reload rapidly. Thus after you fired your 8-9 shots you are stuck with a single shot rifle, and that is when Custer lost his battle, not in the first 8-9 rounds but the constant attacks that overwhelmed his forces. Military weapons of the 1880s that did use Tubular Magazines, but like the last model of the Spencer carbine issued at the end of the Civil War, had mechanism to keep those rounds in reserve, till you actually needed them (Winchester did NOT have that feature, but those Military rifles that had Tubular magazines almost always did).

Thus in Wounded Knee the Troops of the Seventh Calvary just kept on firing round after round killing the Indians (Wounded Knee is called a Massacre for the number of Indians killed by single shot Springfields). Reno, whose had command over three Troops of the Seventh when Custer was Killed, kept his troops alive by retreating into an area with woods then rocks where he could set up a defensive perimeter. He and his men survived, Custer attacking from a different direction with 5 Troops of the Seventh ended up having to retreat to an open area, with no natural protection. The troops with Custer were quickly overrun probably by Indians armed with bow and arrows, muzzle-loading rifles, and maybe some Winchesters but NOT many (Winchesters were expensive and rare in the West, Buffalo Bill Cody was one of the few people with one, more as a publicity act by Winchester then anything else). The 1866 and 1873 Winchesters fired a round barely more powerful then a pistol round. Thus of limited usability in the battle. Those troopers who did buy their own rifles tended to Sharps NOT Winchesters.

My point is simple, the difference between the single shot Springfields and the Winchester the Indians May have had (and I have my doubts to more then just a couple) does NOT explain Custer's defeat. The reason for the Defeat was that Custer attacked the largest collection of Plain Indians even known to occur. Custer was overwhelmed by sheer numbers NOT superior firepower.

Side Note: Not only were the 1866, 1873 and 1876 Winchester firing weaker rounds then the 45-70 the Army was using, they were expensive. In 1880 Merlin came out with his lever action, cheaper, stronger, more reliable then the Winchesters mentioned above. Winchester then contacted Browning who designed the 1886 Winchester. The 1886 was cheaper, stronger and more reliable then the older Winchester AND capable of firing 45-70 ammunition. The Model 1886 was a complete redesign, except for the lever itself the 1886 had NOTHING to do with the earlier Winchesters (The feed mechanism was the same was the model 1873 and 1876 but updated). The Model 1886 lead to the model 1892 (To replace the Model 1873) and 1894 (to fire smokeless ammunition like the 30-30). Winchester only became the top weapon in the US with the model 1886, its earlier models were more expensive toys then weapons real people used. The Model 1866, 1873 and 1876 did sell and sell well, but was secondary to Winchesters own single shot rifles and even the Remington Rolling Block. My point is even the Indians preferred the single shot rifles then the rapid fire rifles like the Winchesters. Until the Lee Magazine was invented there was no way to have a rapid shooting rifle for more then a few seconds (I.e. Reloading the rifle is more important then how fast you can shoot the weapon). With the Lee Magazine you could load 5-10 rounds at a time. Later on the Lee was modified to be removable, which produced the present large magazine rifles. The Lee was NOT invented till the 1880s, Mauser modified it to permit loading by five round "Stripper clips" that increased overall fire to about 14 rounds a minute (1890s) then to semi-automatic M1 during WWII then detachable clips during WWII and afterward.

Second Side Note: A problem that did occur was the US Army had gone cheap, instead of using Brass Cartridges, the Army had gone to Copper. Copper is NOT as flexible as Brass but cheaper. The lack of flexibility meant the copper cartridges would jam in the action (Brass being more flexible, would NOT). There is reports that rifles where found with copper cartridges stuck in the rifle. The problem with copper cartridges were well know BEFORE his defeat, thus Custer and his officers tended to buy Brass Cartridges for their own use, but their men had to use the Army Copper issued Rounds.

In Fetterman's defeat ten years before Custer, the Indians used only Bows and Arrows:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._Fetterman
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetterman_Massacre
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Mon May 06th 2024, 12:10 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Guns Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC