Local Law enforcement support Concealed Carry, IL

[Indy Lurker]

Boone County , IL

Last night (9/8/08) The Belvidere Police Department spoke in favor of concealed carry at a county board meeting.

Earlier this summer, the Winnebago county Sheriff spoke in support of Concealed Carry.



State law prohibits concealed carry, so it's unlikely the county can issue a concealed carry permit without changes to state law.



*******************************************************

http://www.rrstar.com/communities/x816777156/Concealed-carry-proposal-gets-support-of-sheriff

ROCKFORD —

Winnebago County Sheriff Dick Meyers lent his considerable support to the county’s concealed carry debate. Meyers was the last of 30 speakers to take the podium, and he received a standing ovation for his efforts.

“Let me get it out of the way,” he told the crowd. “I do not have a problem with concealed carry." He said that “20 years ago, I would have told you different,” but “we’re at a point where we don’t have a choice.”

The County Board is drafting a resolution that will authorize the sheriff to issue gun permits to qualified citizens. Although the resolution is still in draft form, at least 13 of the 28 board members have already signed on.

“I just think that this is what’s coming (concealed carry), and from a public safety standpoint, it’s the right thing to do.”

[Nipper1959]

1. Law enforcement

in my state, Wisconsin, has consistently been against concealed carry. They don't want more guns to deal with when responding to calls. Why any law enforcement agency would be in favor of concealed carry is a mystery to me.

[Indy Lurker]

2. What I was told.

The officers I spoke to said:

1. They believed everyone has the right to self defense.
2. The bad guys already have guns.
3. A good guy with a gun may be able to help them out.
4. Crime has gone down where CC has been implemented (their words, not mine, I can't say say for sure that it has. I can say that stricter gun laws like Chicago, and DC show no evidence or reducing crime.)

The question also came up of how can you tell who is a good guy or bad guy when responding to a call.
They said it doesn't matter, they always treat everyone as if they are armed when responding to a call.

They did say they would like to see 40 hrs of training to get a CC license, the same as a armed security guard.

[tburnsten]

3. CC is a little different than

being an armed guard, since carrying a weapon makes you no more responsible for others than you were before you got your carry license, you are just far more responsible for your own actions. I think a forty hour course would be excellent, so long as it was funded with LEO dollars. I think people enrolling in a class that long should still have to pay, just like for the ordinary two-day courses (at least that is what my local store owner/class teacher and organizer does) but the expense of a forty hour course would be enough to prevent a good number of people who would otherwise get their license and be ordinary, responsible citizens.


A guy on another forum I frequent actually told a story about him going to his daughters' house when she called, the police officer showed up just after he got there and asked if he was armed, then asked him to help clear the building. Officers that are not in the NOLA or NYC departments have a very different attitude towards upstanding members of their community than the heavily anti-gun locale officers do.

[one-eyed fat man]

4. aiding local law enforcement....

by ordinary citizens is expected and can even be compelled in some places.

One typical example is the Kentucky statute that gives any sheriff the power to "command and take with him the power of the county or a part thereof, to aid him in the execution of the duties of his office" (Ky. Rev. Stat. Ann. § 70.060 ).

Then in other places the residents won't even call the law when witness to a heinous crime.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/08242008/news/regionalnews/neighbors_ignore_cries_of_slain_gal_125868.htm

http://www.findingdulcinea.com/news/on-this-day/March-April-08/On-this-Day--NYC-Woman-Killed-as-Neighbors-Look-On.html

Maybe fear of confronting an attacker could excuse the inaction of some, but when it extends to letting an old man lay in the street after a hit and run? It more than borders on comtemptible!

http://www.findingdulcinea.com/news/Americas/June-08/Witnesses-Ignore-Seriously-Injured-Hit-and-Run-Victim-.html

[spin]

5. I also was asked by an LEO to help...

A neighbor called to report a prowler in the yard of an unoccupied house she had just bought.

The officer, who knows me, asked if I was carrying and would I mind helping him check the situation out. We did. If their was a prowler, he had probably noticed the squad car pull up and beat feet.

[tburnsten]

7. I think that is the same outcome

the other fellow and his daughter had. I think he was still a little taken aback at being asked to help clear the area by an officer though, just because the typical preconceived notion people usually have is that cops are not very friendly with the idea of citizens carrying.

[spin]

8. I can understand a cop in Chicago or New York...

might have a negative opinion of concealed carry. Police officers who have experience with civilian concealed carry have a more positive opinion. If they perform a traffic stop and the civilian shows them a CCW permit they know they are dealing with someone who has a background check and presents no danger to the officer.

When I was stopped in Tampa for an expired license tag, I passed the LEO my drivers license, my vehicle registration, insurance card and my concealed carry permit. He merely glanced at the permit. No problem. Yes, I was carrying a snub nosed revolver in my front pants pocket, but he never asked. He was polite and of course so was I.

The incident was an expensive lesson to put a memo on my computer to renew my tag. In Florida you're supposed to get a reminder in the mail, but when I paid the fine, the lady behind the counter said that often the state screws up. Perhaps that's one way Florida generates money. Tampa has an excellent system set up to collect such fines. I was impressed with how fast and efficient they are. I had to go to two different locations to get the new tag and pay the fine, but spent just over an hour including driving time completing the task.

Currently a local police officer and another LEO between jobs room with myself, my daughter and her husband and our two grandchildren in the big old hotel that my family bought as a home. We are friends with almost all of the local police. I been shooting with two of them. They are fond of their firearms and have no problems with honest responsible citizens owning weapons or with licensed citizens carrying weapons.

Sometimes during the early morning hours we have several local squad cars and a sheriffs car parked in our yard, with the LEOs sitting on our big front porch hanging out between calls. Being an old time 3rd shift worker, I often spend some time bullshiting with them. Sometimes the conversation turns to firearms. Therefore, I'm familiar with their views on gun ownership.

[tburnsten]

9. That is exactly how it should be

I'm glad that some others experience with police and guns mirrors my own. I had a stop for operating with a suspended registration (not my car, it was dismissed, as was the warrant for me since I mistakenly went into court a day late, Kennebec County DA is awesome!) and gave the officer my carry permit, he didn't say a word about it. I was a little nervous, because I had only been carrying for a short time, and this was my first conversation with police since then.


Another time I got into a little discussion with a detective about whether or not it is legal for a 19 year old to own a handgun (it is), he did not think so, but had gotten confused with FFL regulations versus state firearms law. His colleague must have let him know who was right when they were in another room together, because the colleague let me know I was right when he came back out. Had to help his buddy save face I guess.

[apocalypsehow]

13. Southern Fried Rock, Lazare; Southern Fried Rock.

"A guy on another forum I frequent actually told a story about him going to his daughters' house when she called, the police officer showed up just after he got there and asked if he was armed, then asked him to help clear the building."

That there's a fascinating tale, and you tell it so well. I'd like to take a gander at this missive as it appeared in the original author's font; mind posting a link to this other forum you frequent?

Thanks! :thumbsup:

[tburnsten]

17. No need to pick on my story telling

I know it was dull. I can't remember the exact wording of it, so the search tool is useless to me, but I did post a request over there for whoever wrote it to get back to me. When he does I'll send it to you.

[apocalypsehow]

18. No picking intended: we really talk like that were I hail from. Thanks for sending the link. n/t.

[tburnsten]

19. Anytime

I am looking for the exact anecdote I was thinking of, that one is a very similiar story but with the ingredients arranged differently. Like mexican food.

[Flyboy_451]

10. law enforcement view

I'm a new member here but have been reading the boards for quite a while. This topic is one that seems to be misunderstood by a great many people, so I will try to give a a perspective not yet offered...that of a police officer. I grew up in a LE family.

My grandfather was a sheriffs deputy, my father was a police officer for 32 years on the same department that I now work for. In my years as a teenager, guns were a large part of my activities. Hunting, informal plinking, competitive shooting, you name it. I shot my first handgun when I was about 6, got my first shotgun for Christmas when I was 12, and had access to the gun cabinet from that point forward. To say that I grew up in a home that was supportive of the second amendment is probably an understatement.

As a police officer, I have chosen a career that places me in danger both in and out of uniform. Law enforcement as a whole, understands that law abiding citizens, even when armed, are of no real threat to our safety. We also realize, probably better than most, that we are a reactionary agency. When you call us, we are quite good at showing up, taking reports, and cleaning up the mess. If we are lucky, there will be evidence at the scene that later leads to an arrest and hopefully a conviction.

The average response time for my department, as of April of this years, was 9.23 minutes. This is an eternity if you are a citizen engaged in a life threatening situation. Obviously, the police can not be relied on to protect you as an individual. When responding to any call, a police officer will always approach the situation as if a weapon is present, because there is ALWAYS a weapon present...His. This may sound trite, but it is no less true. Possession of a firearm by a law abiding citizen does not increase the danger to a police officer any measurable degree. This is because people with a concealed weapons permit are some of the most law abiding, trouble free people that we encounter. I am not aware of any situations in which a police officer was assaulted by a CCW permit holder.

Every department has different operational guidelines for dealing with permit holders in a professional encounter, and the officer is commonly given a great deal of latitude in deciding how to approach the situation. Often an officer will ask a permit holder to relinquish his firearm for the duration of the interview. This is simply a precautionary measure and is not intended as a personal attack of the permit holders integrity. Keep in mind that many police officers are not firearms enthusiasts, and are generally acting so as to preserve control over a potential risk. My personal preference is to allow the permit holder to retain their firearm (holstered and concealed) if the situation allows this with my safety as a consideration. By allowing them to retain their firearm, I have taken a step towards building trust as well as helping insure that their firearm is secured. This may sound like a contradiction, but if their gun remains holstered and concealed it is safer than me taking possession of it, unloading it and then trying to find a way to secure it while conducting interviews, taking notes, and filling out reports. Any time that a firearm is handled, the odds of a negligent discharge increase. Even more so if the firearm is of a model that the officer is not familiar with. This creates an additional safety concern for all present.

As for assisting officers in the execution of their duties, I have never asked nor would I ask for assistance from an armed citizen unless it was an absolute last resort. This is not meant to demean the ability of any permit holder, but the truth of the matter is that police officers operate within policies and procedures of the given department. This includes tactics for "clearing" a building or area. This is likely the most dangerous situation that law enforcement encounters as we may not be familiar with the environment, have no idea how many perpetrators could be present or who we should or should not encounter. The introduction of an armed citizen into this type of situation adds risks to both the officer involved as well as the citizen. This is a job in which a team of officers is the solution. This is why we carry communication equipment, so we can call for additional officers. If the situation dictates that a search of the area must be conducted of the area, without additional officers, in order to preserve safety of others, the best procedure is often to move those present to a safe area and then proceed. There is little benefit to an armed citizen assisting in this situation, due to lack of training in a tactical environment as well as being unfamiliar with procedures used by the department involved and a lack of communication abilities. Communication abilities may well be the most important aspect. Being able to relay information, call for assistance or direct activity is a key element to accomplishing this type of action safely and effectively.

All that being said, there has been one occasion in which a citizen came to my aid, and I am certainly glad that he did. I was confronted, off duty but armed, by a person that I had had prior professional dealings with and two of his friends. This was just a bad luck situation in which we happened to be at the same place at the same time and he took advantage of having seen me before I saw and recognized him. Thankfully they were all unarmed, but a struggle for my firearm ensued. When a citizen with a concealed carry permit became aware of the situation, he voluntarily placed himself at risk to assist me. The situation ended with only minor injuries for those involved, and three perpetrators getting free room and board that night. As a general rule, I discourage this practice among permit holders, as I could not know the intention of an approaching person in a violent encounter (he could be coming to the aid of the bad guys), making the situation worse. This situation came to a happy ending and I am glad that a citizen was willing to help me in my hour of need, but he still placed himself at great risk of injury by the perps or even myself acting from the confusion of the fight. I may or may not have prevailed in this event without assistance, but I know for sure that this man's actions increased my chances of surviving. He has since become one of my most trusted friends.

I have been a police officer for 12 years now, and regularly teach CCW classes as well conducting training for both civilians and law enforcement in basic and advanced defensive use of a firearm. I would oppose any measure that would reduce the effectiveness with which the average person may defend themselves.

JW

[spin]

11. Welcome to DU...your post was one of the best I've...

read on this board.

Let me thank you for the effort you put into protecting your community. You put your life on the line every time you put on your uniform and go on duty. Far too many people fail to appreciate this.

[Flyboy_451]

12. Thanks for the welcome, Spin

Didn't mean for my first post to be an epic novel, but I felt the question deserved an in depth answer, rather than the typical drivel spouted by both sides of the argument.

Another point that should be brought out is that the majority of rank and file street cops have a similar opinion to mine. The gun control proponents love to tell everyone how this agency or that department is in support of a given piece of legislation. Keep in mind though, that opinions voiced by department heads can be influenced by political pressures. It's pretty tough to get federal grants for your department when you have irritated those in control of the money.

As I pointed out in my original post, there are many LE officers that are not firearms enthusiasts as well. It should come as no surprise that officers such as this have no more understanding of gun control laws than those who wrote such garbage legislation as the 94 AWB, a useless piece of "feel good" legislation.

I'll stop ranting for now and give others a chance....

Once again, thanks for the welcome, and just between me and you (and the rest of the net LOL), while LE work can be dangerous, it is also an incredibly rewarding career. Not only do we see the evil man is capable of, we are privy to rare moments of incredible bravery and compassion by our fellow man.

JW

[spin]

14. I believe most LEOs find their job rewarding...

as do nurses, EMTs and firemen.

Over the years, I've known two individuals who left law enforcement. One didn't like the violence of the job in Atlanta, the other had been a police officer in NYC during the Serpico era.

But the other officers I've known loved their job although some were burned out near the end of their career. Many of the retired police officers I've talked with enjoyed reminiscing about their experiences with other retired officers. I would sit and listen to their conversations. I gained a lot of respect for law enforcement.

When I left high school, I considered a career in law enforcement. I was too short to meet the height requirements at that time. But as my daughter often says, everything happens for a reason.

Good luck and stay safe out there.

[iverglas]

20. results do vary

I can't actually cite anything that Canadian police have said about this carrying of concealed weapons business. Basically because the entire idea is so loony it probably hasn't occurred to them to mention that they oppose it.


A couple of things that might help, though:

http://www2.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications/Publication.aspx?Language=E&Mode=1&Parl=39&Ses=1&DocId=2842428

Firearms Registry

Hon. Marlene Jennings (Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, Lib.):

Mr. Speaker, yesterday the Canadian Police Association was on Parliament Hill to meet with all members. One of the key messages we heard was to fight tooth and nail against the government's underhanded attempt to scrap the gun registry.

Yesterday the president of the association said, “The registry has always been useful to us”.

Why will the minister not listen to rank and file police officers who use the gun registry more than 5,000 times each day of the year?

I apologize for the source of this one, but it appears to be an open letter that no other kinds of sources have made available on line:

http://www.cdnshootingsports.org/2007/08/Bill_C-10A.html

The CPA (Canadian Police Association), CACP (Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police), and Canadian Association of Police Boards Letter.

November 23, 2007

The Honourable Stockwell Day, P.C., M.P.
Minister Public Safety Canada
340 Laurier Avenue West
Ottawa, Ontario
K1A 0P8

Dear Minister:

We are writing as the three national associations representing policing in Canada, in response to recent reports that your government is considering another postponement of the Regulations requiring the marking of imported firearms, consistent with Canada‚s international commitments. We understand that this is being considered at the urging of the firearms community, without the benefit of adequate consultation with law enforcement. We respectfully urge you and your government to stand by the current commitment requiring marking of all imported firearms effective December 1, 2007. The current Regulations were created in 2004, to come into force in April, 2006. These regulations were established to enable Canada to fulfil its international commitments as a result of international treaties, to which Canada is a signatory, dealing with illegal firearms and gun crime as well as the flow of guns to conflict zones. The United States has had import marking regulations since the adoption of the 1968 Gun Control Act. ...

One can't directly infer a position on the carrying of concealed firearms, but I can assure you that if you guessed that Canadian police would oppose permitting it should anyone ever go off the deep end and seriously propose it, you'd be right.


Strikes me that individual members of police services have ideologies that have a considerable influence on their public policy positions, just as does everyone else.

The danger that licensed holders of permits to carry concealed firearms present to police is undoubtedly a low enough risk that, in the minds of some, it is offset by their ideology-driven support for the notion.

[spin]

6. In Florida, I've never met an LEO who opposed....

concealed carry.

But shall issue concealed carry has existed in Florida for years.

A short history of concealed carry:

A trend started, with CHL laws passed in Indiana, 1980; Maine and North Dakota, 1985; and South Dakota, 1986.

The national media ignored these until 1987, when Marion Hammer tackled Florida. The anti-gunners were horrified. Obviously concealed carry would turn Florida into another Dodge City. Blood would flow in the street. Fender benders would turn into firefights.

The fight was tough, but the Unified Sportsmen of Florida succeeded. The dire Predictions? A year later the president of the police chiefs association, who had opposed the bill, was asked if he had kept track of all the problems the law caused. "There aren't any," he said.
http://www.txchia.org/history.htm

[old mark]

15. This has pretty much been the story of shall-issue -

nothing bad happens.

Yet we still hear the anti-gun folks whine and moan that the average gun owner is some sick idiot who can't wait to shoot someone and will end up shooting themselves.

These people are so invested in their false beliefs they will not accept another viewpoint even with proof.

mark

[spin]

16. Very true, facts and statistics are irrelevant...

only emotion counts to the anti-gun crowd.

I've always tried to have a open mind toward other opinions and judge them on their merits. So far, none of the anti-gun arguments have came close to changing my viewpoint.

The strangest idea they cling to is that prohibiting honest citizens from owning firearms will cause criminals to commit less violent crime. There appears to be a "failure to logic" on this point.

If we only could convince them to crack down on criminals and criminal drug gangs, we might diminish crime and actually reduce the number of firearms sold in this country. Many people own weapons merely for self defense. If there was little or no reason to fear criminals, a large number of people would chose to buy other items rather than firearms.

If we passed draconian laws against criminals who unitized firearms and put them behind bars for a long time we might take much of the profit motive out of crime. If nothing else, the violent criminals would be unable to repeat their mischief while they were in prison.

But I'm not totally lacking in compassion. I understand that the underlying causes of crime are complicated and hard to solve. We do need a much better educational system and the availability of good paying jobs. We need to offer equal opportunity to all people. We also need to make some progress in our "war on drugs". This is one war where there is no doubt that we are losing and losing badly. Perhaps we need to legalize some drugs and use the taxes generated to provide treatment programs and medical assistance.

But rather than finding real solutions to our problems, the anti-gun crowd is salivating at the prospect of reinstating the Assault Weapons Ban. the AWB was a total failure that accomplished nothing and in fact increased the sale semi-auto weapons in our country.