"Gun rights" advocates--who are they?

[MrBenchley]

Let's take a look at some of the more notable voices publicly peddling the bogus "gun rights" agenda.

[MrBenchley]

1. Sean Hannity

Like Hobbes’ Leviathan, Hannity is nasty, brutish and short. Correcting his outright lies and distrotions of fact would be a full-time job for a team of experts. Besides titllating a couple hunded thousand right wing loonies daily on Faux Noise’s Hannity & Colmes, Hannnity has a daily radio program on which he regularly promotes white supremacists such as Hal Turner and Richard Barrett. When Barrett held a white power rally in Morristown in 2000, Hannity promoted it almost daily, helpfully passing on phone numbers to ccall "for more information."
And, Hannity is pro-gun, big time. He even contributed a cover blurb for crackpot John Lott’s book.

Special bonus points: Guess which side of the gun control question Turner and Barrett are on? Like nearly every racist one can find, they’re peddling the bogus "gun rights" argument.

[a2birdcage]

21. Deleted

[MrBenchley]

2. Bob Grant

"Bob’s regular names for blacks include "savages" and "subhumanoids." When black college students gathered at a New Jersey beach, Grant talked of "the savage mind, the primitive, primordial mentality.... As far as that stretch of beach there at Belmar, it's being written off by, shall we say, civilized people."
Referring to thousands of blacks who attended a celebrity basketball game involving rap stars, he spoke of "subhumanoids, savages, who would feel more at home careening along the sands of the Kalahari...people who, for whatever reason, have not become civilized."
The few blacks who call the show can expect to be insulted -- and perhaps derided as "shoeshine boys." In hanging up on a black caller, Grant said: "Get off my phone, you creep, we don't need the toilets cleaned right now." When he hangs up on black women, he yells: "I don't need the windows washed today."
Grant continually expresses violent fantasies. "I'd like to get every environmentalist, put 'em up against a wall, and shoot 'em," he once said. Last June, he spoke of his wish that police had machine-gunned New York City's gay pride parade. He frequently hopes for the deaths of those he dislikes -- Magic Johnson, Bill Clinton, Haitian refugees and others.
His regular listeners cannot escape the violent message. Several months ago, an obviously troubled man phoned the show: "I just wanted to call and vent the hurt and anger I'm experiencing now.... What could I do as a citizen of this country, which I believe in and have seen fall apart as I've been growing up?" Grant's response: "Well, get a gun and go do something, then." "

http://www.fair.org/media-beat/941103.html
When Bob finally got fired from WABC for his racism, his listeners responnded by sending a torrent of death threats to Jesse Jackson, Bill Cosby, Colin Powell, Oprah Winfrey and just about every black person in public life.
And he’s pro "gun rights," of course.
"Bob Grant, who has New York’s top-rated show at wabc, says his defense of Second Amendment rights is principled not personal. "I hate guns," Grant told me. "I don’t want one in my house. But I don’t want to interfere with my neighbor’s right to own a gun." "

http://www.taemag.com/issues/articleID.16374/article_detail.asp

Especially since Grant hopes his neighbor will kill a subhumanoid or environmentalist.

[MrBenchley]

3. Jeb Bush

The other white meat was keynote speaker at the National Rifle Association’s annual banquet in 2003, where he thanked the assembled wad of racists and loonies: "Were it not for your active involvement, it's safe to say my brother would not be president of the United States," Jebbo said. He got a standing ovation.

[Valarauko]

4. John Fitzerald Kennedy (nt)

nt

[MrBenchley]

7. That would be the JFK shot dead on 11/22/63

[Valarauko]

9. So was Izhak Rabin, your point? (nt)

nt

[MrBenchley]

10. Pretty obvious

[Valarauko]

11. So have Israeli gun laws contributed to the assasination of Rabin? (nt)

--

[MrBenchley]

14. Next ask me

if I'm going to get drawn into this sort of irrelevant sideshow.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

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[Valarauko]

17. No, it is your point that was irrelevant

JFK's method of death has no bearing on his views or personal qualities.

[CO Liberal]

20. Then Why Did You Mention Him???

Other than attempt to fan a flamefest?

[Valarauko]

24. Because

He, too, was a supporter of the RKBA.

[CO Liberal]

26. I'm Sure Many People Who Were RKBA Supporters In the Early '60....

...became gun control supporters after the deaths of JFK, RFK, Dr. King, Malcolm X, Medgar Evers........

[MrBenchley]

29. Sez who?

In fact, Kennedy said the following....which certainly doesn't support the "individual right" argument fo those currently lying about the Second Amendment.

""By calling attention to 'a well regulated militia', the 'security' of the nation, and the right of each citizen 'to keep and bear arms', our founding fathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy. Although it is extremely unlikely that the fears of governmental tyranny which gave rise to the Second Amendment will ever be a major danger to our nation, the Amendment still remains an important declaration of our basic civilian-military relationships, in which every citizen must be ready to participate in the defense of his country. For that reason, I believe the Second Amendment will always be important."

-Senator John F. Kennedy, April 1960

http://www.hkweaponsystems.com/cgi-bin/quote.pl?john_kennedy

[Valarauko]

30. It, like, DIRECTLY supports it.

"in which every citizen must be ready to participate in the defense of his country"

[CO Liberal]

31. As Part of a "Well-Regulated Militia"

That does NOT imply an individual right.

[MrBenchley]

44. Yeah, surrrrrrre....

And how does the citizen participate? By joining the well-regulated militia...sometimes known as the National Guard.

[Valarauko]

50. You know, you should re-read the 2A (nt)

nt

[MrBenchley]

53. Been there, done that

[Withergyld]

102. You should re-read what the Fifth Circuit Court had to say about the 2nd

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/guns/emerson.htm
The Supreme Court recently interpreted the text of the Second Amendment and noted that the phrase "the people" in the Second Amendment has the same meaning in both the Preamble to the Constitution and in the First, Fourth, Fifth, and Ninth Amendments. United States v. Verdugo-Urquidez, 494 U.S. 259, 265 (1990). The Court held that the phrase "the people" "seems to have been a term of art employed in select parts of the Constitution."

The Second Amendment protects "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms," and the Ninth and Tenth Amendments provide that certain rights and powers are retained by and reserved to "the people."

<snip>
"here is a long tradition of widespread lawful gun ownership by private individuals in this country." Staples v. United States, 511 U.S. 600, 610 (1994). A historical examination of the right to bear arms, from English antecedents to the drafting of the Second Amendment, bears proof that the right to bear arms has consistently been, and should still be, construed as an individual right.
<snip>

Furthermore, the very inclusion of the right to keep and bear arms in the Bill of Rights shows that the framers of the Constitution considered it an individual right. "After all, the Bill of Rights is not a bill of states’ rights, but the bill of rights retained by the people." David Harmer, Securing a Free State: Why The Second Amendment Matters, 1998 BYU L. REV. 55, 60 (1998). Of the first ten amendments to the Constitution, only the Tenth concerns itself with the rights of the states, and refers to such rights in addition to, not instead of, individual rights. Id. Thus the structure of the Second Amendment, viewed in the context of the entire Bill of Rights, evinces an intent to recognize an individual right retained by the people.

:hi:

[CO Liberal]

75. As Should You - In Its Entirity

Especially the clause that mentions the "well-regulated militia".

[hansberrym]

96. My copy has a clause mentioning ...

"A well regulated militia", but there are no conditionals such as the
"as part of a" that you mention.

Could you post your copy so that we can read it?

[BullDozer]

100. ditto

And what about the people eh?

[BullDozer]

98. The rest of the story

sometimes known as the National Guard.

But not ever known as only the National Guard.

Gee Bench under federal law the National Guard is only one of the groups that compose the militia.

What about the rest?

Also keep in mind that the National Guard is a federal force and has been such for closing in on a hundred years.

[MrBenchley]

104. Spin and spin, dozer

But as furiously as you spin you'll never make "unorganized" synonymous with "well regulated."

[Romulus]

5. Bartcop

http://www.bartcop.com/0115.htm

Just then, a gang of ruffians, four or so, started hassling us from about 50 yards away.
They were off to our right, drunk, yelling at us, but making no sense.

Then, I remembered: I was not armed.
Your ediotr is the most dangerous kind of liberal:
For ...reasons... that aren't explained here, your editor is constantly armed.

I have a Glock in my car,
a Glock by the bed,
a S&W in my desk at work,
a Colt .38 in Mrs. BartCop's car,
and a derringer for the occasional poker game.


http://www.bartcop.com/111302bonus.htm

I've had to pull my gun out either 2 or 3 times.
Once was in a motel room in Dallas.

Some large sonofabitch starting BEATING on my door with a vengeance, so I picked up
the always-ready-to-fire Glock and pointed it at the door and I mentally prepared myself.
If that door had opened, I was going to check for a police uniform - and if I didn't see one
I was ready to pull the trigger and take my chances in court.

Eventually, the guy stopped banging and walked away.
Afterwards, Mrs. Bart asked, "Were you nervous?" and I said something like
"I would've been a lot more nervous without the Glock."

Please tell me what YOU would do in that instance?

Pray?
Hide behind the bed?
Ask the crazed door-banger to give you time to call the cops?
Travel with a baseball bat and hope he (or they) only brought a pen knife?
Hope the cops weren't busy at Krispy Kreme?

C'mon, tell me what you'd do.

I guess he's a right-wing racist nutjob, too. :eyes:

[MrBenchley]

6. G. Gordon Liddy

Yup, the wildman of Watergate, who used to hold his hand over a lit candle to show people how crazy he was, is a big time "gun rights" raver. He's also one of the chief mouthpieces for the idiotic "gun control is racist" argument..

Fun Fact: Liddy boasted in his autobiography that he sang Nazi songs aloud during his prison term...

"Conservatives complain of media bias against the NRA, especially in editorials and op-eds. In fact, the NRA has many allies among opinion-shapers, including some of the biggest voices in talk radio -- such as NRA echo chamber G. Gordon Liddy, who told listeners how to kill federal agents.
Given the inflammatory utterances from NRA leaders, toned down after the Oklahoma City federal building was bombed by ardent member Timothy McVeigh, the NRA has not fared all that badly in the media. One board member wrote that masked federal agents are "scarier than the Nazis" and should be "targets." Another declared: "The purpose of the 2nd Amendment is to threaten the government."
Only after Oklahoma City did national media notice official NRA rhetoric about the "storm-trooper tactics" of firearms agents, a.k.a. "jack-booted government thugs," who have the green light to "murder law-abiding citizens." "

http://www.fair.org/articles/gun-control.html

[Valarauko]

8. Malcolm X (nt)

nt

[MrBenchley]

13. Shot to death 2/21/65

http://www.gfsnet.org/msweb/sixties/malcolmx.htm

[MrBenchley]

12. Michael Savage

Michael Savage on kids killed by guns: "They’re not kids, they’re ghetto slime... they’re the same kids that are in Sierra Leone toting AK47s."

Savage routinely refers to non-white countries as "turd world nations" and charges that "The U.S. is being taken over by the freaks, the cripples, the perverts and the mental defectives." "With the Latino population that has emerged, since they breed like rabbits, in many cases the whites will become a minority in their own nation. The white people don't breed as often for whatever reason. I guess many homosexuals are involved. That is also part of the grand plan, to push homosexuality to cut down on the white race."

He called the "Million Mom March" in favor of gun control the "Million Dyke March".

[MrBenchley]

16. Darrel Issa

One time car thief turned right wing loony congressperson...he bankrolled the Califronia recall.

And yes, he peddles the bogus "gun rights" argument...in gfact, one of the things that knocked him out of the race for governor was a video of his appearance at a gun show next to some Nazi memorabilia.

"According to an article in today’s San Francisco Chronicle, Darrell Issa has carried on a salacious decades-long love affair with…handguns. Issa’s campaign has already begun working to downplay rumors of the romance, which court authorities have proven dates back to 1972. In his hometown of Cleveland Heights, Ohio, Issa was arrested for auto theft and possession of a concealed weapon.
But 1998 was only five years ago, and that’s when Issa’s campaign (for the US Senate) set up a booth at the Great Western Gun Show, alongside vendors selling hundreds of guns, German army helmets and Nazi flags. Read more about Issa’s ongoing tryst here.
Jonathan Wilcox, Issa’s communications director expressed disbelief that the press corps would even bother to cover anything as trivial as two arrests on weapons charges and tacit affiliation with Nazi paraphernalia."

http://www.thedailyenron.com/documents/20030702113250-60657.asp

[MrBenchley]

22. Jim Talent

Jim Talent…anti-reproductive rights, anti civil rights, he’s a leader in the drive to privatize social security. He’s another voucher proponent. He was part of a group of young congressmen who called themselves the "Lobster Tails" because they enjoyed dining out at fancy restaurants on lobbyist's expense accounts so much. Another "tear down the church/state wall" nutcase…and pro-gun all the way.

[MrBenchley]

23. Sue Myrick

"You know, and this can be misconstrued, but honest to goodness (husband) Ed and I for years, for 20 years, have been saying, 'You know, look at who runs all the convenience stores across the country.' Every little town you go into, you know?" Now who could misconstrue that?

In 1995, Myrick managed to block the use of public funds for a statue of three famous feminists in the Capitol Rotunda, although public funds had been used to create and maintain every other statue in the Rotunda. She’s anti-gay, pro-voucher, anti-reproductive choice, wants to privatize social security and tear down the church/state wall….and oh, yeah, she’s pro-gun.

[MrBenchley]

25. Grover Norquist

NRA national board member and columnist for the American Spectator….He's the President of Americans for Tax Reform (ATR), and helped write the Republican 1994 Contract With America. Norquist led a right wing charge to "de-fund" the left, declaring that "We will hunt down one by one and extinguish their funding sources." Norquist was on the campaign staff on the 1988, 1992, and 1996 Republican Klaverns, and formerly was Executive Director of the College Republicans.

Norquist’s ATR Foundation has received a number of grants from right wing foundations, including Olin, Scaife, Bradley, etc.

[Valarauko]

27. Murkowski

IIRC the current Alaska Governor. :-)

[MrBenchley]

48. A primo Republican idiot is Frank Murkowski

Anti-environment, anti-gay, anti-reproductive cchoice.. He's one of the loudest of the imbeciles calling for drilling the ANWR, and also one of tthe loudest pushing for vouchers and prayer in public schools.

He was one of the prime movers that stuck the taxpayer with the liability for and ownership of nuclear waste.

[Valarauko]

60. Mea Culpa (nt)

nt

[Valarauko]

28. Itzhak Rabin (nt)

nt

[Superfly]

34. Somebody beat me to him

n/t

[Emoto]

35. Thomas Jefferson

"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that... it is their right and duty to be at all times armed;..." Thomas Jefferson letter to Justice John Cartwright, June 5, 1824.

"No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." Thomas Jefferson, Proposed Virginia Constitution, 1 T. Jefferson Papers, 334 (Julian P. Boyd, Ed., 1950).

[Emoto]

36. Samuel Adams

"And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms;…" Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, August 20, 1789 quoting Propositions submitted to the Convention of this State by the Honorable Samuel Adams, Esquire.

[Emoto]

37. Noah Webster

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom of Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any bands of regular troops…" Noah Webster, "An Examination into the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution" (1787) in Pamphlets on the Constitution of the United States (P. Ford, 1888)

[Emoto]

39. James Madison

"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation,... in the several kingdoms of Europe,... the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." James Madison, The Federalist Papers # 46.

[Emoto]

40. Patrick Henry

"The great object is that every man be armed ... Everyone who is able may have a gun." Patrick Henry

[Emoto]

42. George Washington

George Washington's address to the second session of the First U.S. Congress:

"Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty, teeth and keystone under independence. The church, the plow, the prairie wagon and citizens' firearms are indelibly related. From the hour the pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurrences and tendencies prove that, to ensure peace, security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable. Every corner of this land knows firearms, and more than 99 and 99/100 percent of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil influence. They deserve a place of honor with all that's good. When firearms go, all goes. We need them every hour."

[CO Liberal]

45. Notice Emoto Had to Go 100 to 200 Years Back....

...to find reputable gun rights advocates. The challenge is finding them in 2003.

[Emoto]

52. Heh. Good one!

Many tens of millions of average citizens are honest, decent, reputable gun owners, who promote the possession and use of guns through their example, and by teaching future generations about the importance of the right to keep and bear arms. We cannot list them all here.

I went back to those wonderful men, because along with the other signers of the Declaration of Independence, and the other framers of the Constitution and Bill of Rights, they "invented" what this country is all about: The principles and beliefs that led to our freedom. They speak with the most pure and unadulterated voice on what the right to keep and bear arms is all about.

It is absurd to attempt to discredit a belief, no, more than a simple belief, one of the cornerstones of this country and measures of our freedom, by pointing out that there happen to be some nuts out there who happen to believe the same thing.

[iverglas]

79. not to mention

... the challenge of finding even a long-dead rich white guy who wasn't obviously talking about the collective right of self-defence against tyranny and not about citizens arming themselves against one another ... which I just don't see the quotation from George meeting ...

.

[hansberrym]

97. let's play a game...

I'll post a quote from a dead white guy illustrating that individual's were intended to armed for thier own defense AND for the collective defense. Then you can post a quote showing that the right was meant to be exclusively a collective right with no individual right intended.

I'll start with one of Benchley's favaorites


Defense of the Constitution, John Adams 1787
”To suppose arms in the hands of citizens, to be used at individual discretion, except in private self-defense, or by partial orders of towns, countries or districts of a state, is to demolish every constitution, and lay the laws prostrate, so that liberty can be enjoyed by no man; it is a dissolution of the government. The fundamental law of the militia is, that it be created, directed and commanded by the laws, and ever for the support of the laws"
(end quote)


except prep. with exclusion of , leaving out
partial adj. favoring one party over another,


How does Adams' exception for "Private self defense" fit the anti's argument?

[iverglas]

101. playing with the wrong person

"How does Adams' exception for "Private self defense" fit the anti's argument?"

First, of course: "anti" what? Just idle curiosity.

My actual answers:

- Who cares? He really is just a dead rich white guy, you know. And *I* really don't give a fig what he said, and any more or less of a fig than I do about what anybody else has ever said, in terms of what is right and desirable in a society.

- Who knows? Does what he said carry the same weight as a provision in your constitution? When the provision in the constitution differs from what he said (and ya just cain't prove it don't), which prevails?

.

[hansberrym]

103. "Anti" refers to anti individual right to keep and bear arms

My point in quoting John Adams was to show that there were prominent Federalists who supported individuals owning weapons for individual defense. On the other hand, there are no references from the founding that would support the exclusively collective rights argument.

Furthermore, the exclusively collective argument is not supported by the wording of the admendment since "keep and bear" refers to actions that individuals would perform rather than a collective action.

Some time ago you started a line of reasoning in which you considered the words "electing" representing a collective right, and "voting" representing an individual right. Since "keep and bear" are the actions of individual persons (not groups or states) the right to keep and bear is most plausibly interpreted as an individual right.


(quote)
- Who cares? He really is just a dead rich white guy, you know. And *I* really don't give a fig what he said, and any more or less of a fig than I do about what anybody else has ever said, in terms of what is right and desirable in a society.
(unquote)

What is right and desirable in society is a matter of opinion, so I would agree with you as far as that goes. But the meaning of constitutional provisions should be found out by applying reason and study.


(Quote)
(and ya just cain't prove it don't)
(unquote)

Most of the time the questions of interpretation are decided on which interpretation is most plausible, not which is definitely proven to be the correct answer. The exclusively collective rights interpretation is extremely implausible given the legislative history and actual wording of the amendment, and should be rejected on that basis.

[MrBenchley]

105. In fact...

Nothing at all about "private self defense" is mentioned in the Second Amendment.

And the only discussion of individual ownership that emerged during the Constitutional debates (incorrectly attributed here to Samuel Adams) has already been produced in this thread....and as I note, it was VOTED DOWN (as in REJECTED or NOT APPROVED) by the delegates at the time.

[MrBenchley]

54. Washington NEVER said any such thing

"This quotation, sometimes called the "liberty teeth" quote, appears nowhere in Washington's papers or speeches, and contains several historical anachronisms: the reference to "prairie wagon" in an America which had yet to even begin settling the Great Plains (which were owned by France at the time), the reference to "the Pilgrims" which implies a modern historical perspective, and particularly the attempt by "Washington" to defend the utility of firearms (by use of statistics!) to an audience which would have used firearms in their daily lives to obtain food, defend against hostile Indians, and which had only recently won a war for independence.

The "99 99/100 percent" is also an odd phrase for 18th century America, which tended not to use fractional percentages. It's clear that "Washington" is addressing "gun control" arguments which wouldn't exist for another couple of centuries, not to mention doing so in a style that is uncharacteristic of the period, and uncharacteristic of Washington's addresses to Congress, both of which exhibited a high degree of formality. "

[Emoto]

66. Hey...

...if that one isn't true, I am sorry for posting it. I thought it was. I just found the pro-gun page that you quoted (shouldn't you have given them credit?).

The point remains, though, that those who misuse guns remains in the tiniest of minorities. For every bad person that you claim is pro-gun, I can post three good people. At least, I could if I had the time.

Your efforts to portray anyone who promotes RKBA as a nut (by association) are disingenuous. I don't know why you get your jollies by bashing gun owners, and I don't care, but you need to know that as you seek to undermine freedom and strip away personal liberty, you do the work that countless external enemies failed in doing. To work toward reducing our civil rights is a most craven act.

[MrBenchley]

70. Gee, in fact Washington

wanted guns to be manufactured with serial numbers so they could be traced....

"I just found the pro-gun page that you quoted (shouldn't you have given them credit?)."
Thought I posted the link....

http://www.guncite.com/gc2ndbog.html

"Your efforts to portray anyone who promotes RKBA as a nut (by association) are disingenuous."
Yeah, and this desperate attempt to pretend the seccond amendment means something it does not is completely dishonest. Hence the need for fake quotes.

"you need to know that as you seek to undermine freedom and strip away personal liberty, you do the work that countless external enemies failed in doing."
What a steaming pantload. In fact, we have repelled our external enemies from the very first with our collective guns and will continue to do so....and the biggest threat to our liberty currrentl;y is by the very imbeciles that the gun rights crowd are FUNDING and PROMOTING.

[iverglas]

80. hee hee hee

The gullibility that surpasseth understanding, eh?

Amazing how easy it is to fool the ones who ya'd think should be able to recognize the fooling. Given whom it takes to know whom, and all that.

.

[MrBenchley]

51. The full quote...

"It may well be doubted, whether a militia thus circumstanced could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops. Those who are best acquainted with the last successful resistance of this country against the British arms, will be most inclined to deny the possibility of it. Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it."

Noticce that Madisonn is talking about WELL-REGULATED MILITIAS...not armed neurotics.

[Emoto]

55. ...doesn't change a thing

The meaning is intact. Who mentioned neurotics? The PEOPLE are the militia. Even you.

[MrBenchley]

57. Surrrrrrrrre....

That's why the fake quote omitted the word.

[Valarauko]

56. A militia back then meant a bunch of armed citizens

Armed, may I point out, with PRIVATELY owned arms.

[MrBenchley]

58. Not even close to true on either count

[MrBenchley]

49. And the proposition was turned DOWN

by the convention.

[DoNotRefill]

43. Lawrence Tribe...

nt

[MrBenchley]

46. Robert K. Brown

Publisher of "Soldier of Fortune" magazine and all around nutcase.

"Calling themselves "action journalists," many of SOF's reporters have come under fire for participating in the training of counterrevolutionary groups in El Salvador and Nicaragua. SOF claims to have sent over a dozen training teams to El Salvador in the early 1980's to train government troops in sniping, anti-guerrilla urban warfare, explosives and weapons maintenance. "

http://www.publiceye.org/research/Group_Watch/Entries-121.htm

Remember "Iran/Contra"?

Brown has also been involved with "murder for hire" cases:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0440214017/103-0324720-2274259?v=glance

"SOF's notoriety — and consequent inability to build an identifiable, substantial sub base — has chased away more mainstream advertisers. An ad executive from one gun magazine, who declined to be named, says SOF appeals to a peculiar set within the gun enthusiast niche: the “black helicopter crowd,” who think they're constantly being tailed by government aircraft.
And starting in 1986, the magazine was hit by the first of two high-profile lawsuits accusing it of running ads placed by killers-for-hire, both of which ended in murder. The first case was overturned on appeal; the second, in 1988, awarded the plaintiff $9.4 million, but SOF settled out of court for $200,000 in 1993."

And he's on the board of NRA...

[CO Liberal]

47. Timothy McVeigh

Oklahoma City Bomber and NRA member.

[MrBenchley]

59. Tim made his living on the gun show circuit

for many years...and didn't stand out at all among the crazies there.

[Valarauko]

61. Howard Dean (nt)

nt

[Valarauko]

62. John Dingell (nt)

nt

[Valarauko]

63. George Orwell (nt)

nt

[Valarauko]

64. Irwin Shaw (nt)

nt

[Valarauko]

65. John B. Breaux (D-LA) (nt)

nt

[Valarauko]

67. Evan Bayh (D-IN) (nt)

nt

[iverglas]

77. gag me with a spoon

Orwell was in a "organized militia" (the Home Guard) formed in the hope of repelling Nazis in the feared invasion of Britain. It was in this context that he wrote about firearms.

He was also armed when he fought in the Spanish Civil War, against the forces of fascism.

His advocacy of firearms possession had SOLELY to do with the ability of the masses to resist and throw off oppression perpetrated by NON-DEMOCRATIC governments -- whether the resistance be against invading forces or indigenous forces of oppression.

(Did he ever take up arms for that purpose in England after the external Nazi threat was eliminated? Nope.)

It had NOTHING to do with "self-defence" against burglars or any others of his fellow citizens.

Orwell never, ever wrote about firarms in the context of INDIVIDUAL "self-defence".

So as long as we're all feeling free to stake our claim to any dead guy we like, who has no opportunity to speak for himself about the issue in question in the context anyone here is in, I'll claim Orwell, thankee. The idea of people going about armed against other members of their class would have appalled him, and the numbers in which those people kill one another in the US would have sickened him. I say with all the confidence of anyone who presumes to put words in anyone else's mouth.

.

[Superfly]

81. Well...

a ban on person firearm ownership, as some here on DU are advocating (you?) would make "...advocacy of firearms possession had SOLELY to do with the ability of the masses to resist and throw off oppression perpetrated by NON-DEMOCRATIC governments..." impossible.

"(Did he ever take up arms for that purpose in England after the external Nazi threat was eliminated? Nope.)"

Could he do so now? Nope. (Besides the fact that he is dead)

[iverglas]

87. why do you ask, gentle reader?

"a ban on person<al> firearm ownership, as some here on DU are advocating (you?)"

Stopped beating your dog yet?

Or are you perhaps considering stopping asking "questions" to which you know or must absolutely and unavoidably be deemed to know the answer, it having been given repeatedly, complete with details well beyond the yes/no point?


"Could he do so now? Nope. (Besides the fact that he is dead)"

Might he stand on US soil and look around him at the carnage wrought by those personal firearms, and realize that the masses themselves were doing such a find job of accomplishing what the oppressors wanted -- ensuring that the masses live in fear, and ensuring that they never challenged or rose up against the real causes and sources of their problems -- that the firearms in the hands of the masses were really in the hands of the oppressors? That the masses were simply acting as proxies for those oppressors and doing their dirty work for them? That the oppressors would have no reason to disarm the masses, because as long as the masses were busy shooting at and being afraid of one another, the oppressors had nothing at all to fear?

Um ... I'll say "yes".


This all reminds me of one of my favourite Phil Ochs songs.

http://www.geocities.com/Nashville/3448/bound.html

BOUND FOR GLORY (The Story of Woody Guthrie)
(PHIL OCHS) (1963)

Now they sing out his praises on every distant shore,
But so few remember what he was fightin' for.
Oh why sing the songs and forget about the aim,
He wrote them for a reason, why not sing them for the same?


Pressing George Orwell, or many of the other names in this thread, into service on behalf of a theory and practice of society that it is completely false to attribute to them, and that is completely inconsistent with their own goals and beliefs, is offensive in the extreme.

.

[Superfly]

90. For the record...

I agree with your last statement, but for the fact that pressing people like George Orwell into service for their unstated opinions is a purely academic exercise. It is, however, not offensive to wonder and suppose what they would have thought.

[Valarauko]

119. Besides which, Orwell HAS supported

turning the Home Guard into an unorganised militia.

[iverglas]

122. orwell is dead

So I'd be saying "Orwell HAD supported ...".

Eric Blair died in 1950.

And any support on his part for "unorganized militias" was based on his belief in the COLLECTIVE RIGHT OF PEOPLES to self-determination -- more specifically, his opposition to fascism, whether home-grown or invading, and to the oppression of the working classes.

I just don't know how anyone could fail to understand that the COLLECTIVE RIGHT OF SELF-DETERMINATION does *not* found a claim that absolutely is entitled to own, possess or carry firearms, anywhere, for any purpose, in any manner s/he might choose.

A collective right to choose a government does *not* found an individual right to vote a government in (i.e. vote an existing government out) whenever, wherever and however one bloody well feels like doing it.

A collective right is exercised in the manner collectively decided by the collective. Individuals do *not* decide how, when or where a collective right will be exercised.

And whether or not your dog's breakfast of that 2nd amendment can somehow be "interpreted" as being intended to grant, and granting, an "individual right to keep and bear arms" for self-defence or target shooting or sexual arousal or whatever other purpose they might serve for an individual, ORWELL was not concerned about those purposes or whatever "right" might be necessary in order for them to be served.

ORWELL was concerned about the collective right of self-determination. In order for that right to be exercised, it might, in some circumstances, be necessary for individuals to be armed. In Orwell's circumstances -- he had seen the threat of indigenous facsism in Spain and the threat of invading fascism in England, and perceived a threat from Stalinism in the USSR -- he considered it to be necessary for individuals to be armed in order to exercise the collective right to self-determination.

The US's founders & framers were in similar circumstances. They had experienced what they reasonably perceived as foreign oppression, and they perceived threats to the freedom of their state on their borders, and internal threats to the security of their state. They were concerned about the exercise of the collective right to self-determination of the people (singular) of the United States -- their right to exist within the secure borders of a state free from foreign intervention in its affairs.

In their circumstances, it was arguably necessary for individuals to be armed, in order to protect the security of the free state that represented that people's exercise of the right to collective self-determination. I see no other way that the 2nd amendment can be interpreted, and I see absolutely nothing in that provision to support the assertion of a "right" to possess firearms for any purpose other than the defence of the freedom and security of the state.

(Just as the right to vote is necessary, in our circumstances, for the purpose of exercising the right to self-determination -- the right of a people to choose its own government. It's entirely conceivable that a people, in some place and at some time, could exercise that right without individuals ever voting at all, in point of fact.)

And what I see next is surely obvious: that the assertion that it is necessary for individuals IN THE U.S. to possess firearms IN THIS CENTURY in order to ensure the continued existence and security of the US as a free state is laughable (if disingenuous) nonsense.

I confidently suggest that Eric Blair would be spinning in his grave to see anyone claim that a situation that is so completely opposite to the world he strove for -- a situation in which the people whose rights he fought for are making their own lives so miserable with fear and violence that no fascist oppressors need even lift a finger to keep them subjugated -- could be justified by appealing to him.

Yuck, says I.

.

[Superfly]

82. Also

Orwell never, ever wrote about firarms in the context of INDIVIDUAL "self-defence".

The absence of evidence does not prove that he did not advocate individual posession of firearms. In fact, I'd be more inclined, that since he participated 2 events that required his own use of firearms, for his own self-defense, I'm sure he'd be a staunch advocate of the individual right to keep and bear arms. Heh, but what do I know, the guy's dead.

[MrBenchley]

83. Too too funny, fly

"I'm sure he'd be a staunch advocate of the individual right to keep and bear arms."
Get out the ouija board.

[Superfly]

85. You know, this is one time I was looking forward

to a response from iverglas, instead, I got you. Shit.

[MrBenchley]

68. Richard Mellon Scaife

THE right wing loonies' sugar daddy, Scaife prefers to do his talking with big bucks at arms length. For example, he funded the far-right wing Claremont Institute...which in turn created a phony group called Doctors for Responsible Gun Ownership (DRGO), whose main purpose is to bitch that real groups of doctors don't think getting shot is conducive to health.

[Valarauko]

69. And your point is? (nt)

nt

[MrBenchley]

71. Obvious

[Valarauko]

72. There actually was NO point in that one (nt)

nt

[iverglas]

78. and you know who ...

... belongs to that "Doctors for Responsible Gun Ownership".

Why, none other than our own favourite loon, good old Sarah Thompson, M.D. (whose site describes her as a "retired physician", not a psychiatrist, of course, since she never ever was one, even though the JPFO continues to describe her as one on its site}:

http://www.therighter.com/cgi-bin/lynx?Firearms.html

Oh dear. Look what happens when you click on her DRGO link:

http://www.claremont.org/1_drgo.cfm

Is a dirge in order here?

Perhaps a 21-gun salute ...

.

[MrBenchley]

84. Amazing how so many link together

into a small, very rotten little knot...

[MrBenchley]

73. William Pierce

So few people actually boast about being Nazis...William Pierce does. His book The Turner Diaries is a staple of gun shows and was the direct inspirration for Tim McVeigh..

"Consider the effort to take guns away from Americans. Jews are overwhelmingly in favor of just about every gun control move that has come along. The Jewish media are hysterically opposed to the private ownership of firearms by American citizens. Furthermore, most of the leaders of the gun control effort in the Congress are and have been Jews. At this time the noisiest and pushiest of these is New York's Senator Charles Schumer.

This doesn't mean, of course, that there aren't plenty of feminized, feather-brained Gentiles who believe we'd all be better off if we had no means to defend ourselves. And, with six million Jews living in the United States, I am sure that there are a few individual Jews among them who do not favor gun control. But the fact remains that the Jew-controlled mass media and Jewish legislators and powerful Jewish organizations such as the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith are the primary moving force behind the effort to abolish the Second Amendment, and knowledgeable patriots always have recognized this fact. "

http://www.compuserb.com/statspon.htm

[FlashHarry]

74. •••••WARNING•••••

This thread is in danger of teetering out of control and will be locked if that occurs. Please make sure you think before you post. Discuss the idea, not the person who posited it. It's a shame to remove an entire well-argued post because of a minor personal attack, but remove it we will.

Thanks, in advance.

FlashHarry
DU Moderator

[MrBenchley]

76. Sun Myung Moon

The right wing Messiah actually owns a couple of gun factories...

[Superfly]

86. What does FlashHarry's warning have

anything to do with Sun Myung Moon? Need to check your glasses, Bench.

[MrBenchley]

108. Some more on the scummy pro-gun "Messiah"

One thing I didn't have space to get into -- in talking about why Tommy Thompson probably displayed poor judgement in entrusting the Moonies with almost half a million dollars for sex ed -- was the utter financial shadiness of the Unification Church. Moon has been accused of

* perpetrating a scheme to raise money for a PR firm, disguising the effort as a huge fundraising drive for sick children. This was one of many similar findings in Congressman Donald Fraser's investigation of 1978. (U.S. Government Printing Office, 34-674-O)
* laundering enormous amounts of cash, according to his daughter-in-law Nansook Hong in her respected expose In the Shadow of the Moons.
* purchasing a bank in Uruguay and siphoning most of its money, leaving the Banco de Credito an empty shell, according to widespread reports in the South American press. Earlier, a bank employees union, in 1996, leveled the astonishing claim that a parade of 4,200 Unificationist disciples deposited $80 million in cash, of questionable origin.
* scamming old ladies in Japan from 1987-98, according to the New York Times and Japanese lawyers who confronted the church's pyramid scheme in the 1990s. Almost 20,000 cases have been reported, totalling 74 billion yen (about 622 million U.S. dollars). One victim of the so-called Spiritual Sales, "Mrs. A," was talked into donating about $200,000 from her dead husband's life insurance policy, to purify the old man's lineage. Unification disciples told her:
"Your husband is suffering in Hell and is seeking your help. Your daughters will suffer misfortune too if you do not donate money with the feeling that you want to sacrifice everything you own and offer it to heaven." "

http://www.gorenfeld.net/john/blog.html

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[CO Liberal]

88. Mark David Chapman

Used his "right" to kill John Lennon.

[CO Liberal]

89. John Hinkley

Used his "right" to impress Jody Foster.

[MrBenchley]

91. Ann Coulter

Yup, Joe McCarthy's dream date just hates gun control.....and even claims to have used her gun in self-defense...

Of course, she pretty much lies every time she opens her yap...and she's crazy as an outhouse rrat...

[MrBenchley]

92. Jonah Goldberg

One of the scummier right wing writers...he's quick to rage against gun control.

[MrBenchley]

93. David Limbaugh

Yup, Rush's less popular idiot brother peddles the bogus "gun rights" argument to chinless gumps wherever he can find them....

[MrBenchley]

95. Cal Thomas

Yup, the voice of the Religious Reich is another gun rights loony....

[BullDozer]

99. Why bother?

The premise of your argument is ridiculous.

Because A is progun and Democrats aren't supposed to like A then that means anything A likes is somehow tainted and should not be supported by Democrats.

It's a bogus argument and would be thrown out of any elementary school debating club.

Attack the messenger when you can't handle the message.

I think GW likes pretzels (although one could conceivably argue that they don't like him) that does not in any way shape or form taint pretzels for the rest of the world.


You're asking for people to let those they dislike dictate what their opinion is supposed to be on something. Free thinkers don't work that way.

[MrBenchley]

106. Gee dozer.....

"You're asking for people to let those they dislike dictate what their opinion is supposed to be on something."
And you're trying desperately to keep us from noticing what scummy dishonest people are peddling this "gun rights" rubbish.

"Because A is progun and Democrats aren't supposed to like A then that means anything A likes is somehow tainted and should not be supported by Democrats."
Hey, if you thinnk Trent Lott is dandy, let us know. I think he's a lying racist piece of shit, and I notice that on every question of public life, he opposes everything I think is decent, honest or helpful...and that his opinion on guns is as rotten as his opinion on everything else.

[MrBenchley]

107. David Horowitz

One of America's least honest journalists (and that's a feat considering his peers), Horowittz has been peddling right wing hysteria for years. He's quick to complain whenever any racist speech or action comes to light that the racist is a vicitim of political correctness...and he regurgitates the gun lobby's lies with regularity.

[CO Liberal]

109. Charles Whitman

An ex-Marine who exercised his "right" to climb a tower at the University of Texas on August 1, 1966 and shoot for over 90 minutes. He killed 14 people and injured dozens before he was killed himself. An autopsy revealed a brain tumor.

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/mass/whitman/index_1.html?sect=8

[demsrule4life]

111. He was hitting at

500 yards or longer. That is a sniper, not those two wimps everyone calls the dc snipers. This happened on my 15th birthday, remember it well.

[MrBenchley]

110. Buford Furrow

The white supremacist loony was a federal firearms licensee under Reagan/Bush until Bill Clinton tightened up the rules in 1993. He bought the gun that he used to kill a postal worker and shoot up a daycare center at Washington state gun show. Although he was a convicted felon, the GOP and the corrupt gun industry let him avoid a background check when buying his weapon, thanks to the gun show loophole.

One of the other guns he had on his rampage was purchased at the Bullseye Gun Shop in Tacoma...which also armed the Beltway Sniper and could not account for hundreds of weapons that had walked out its doors. The bill in Congress now to give the gun industry immunity from liability would shut down the lawsuits by the sniper's victims.

"Buford Furrow is an avowed racist and white separatist. Prior to his shooting spree he had served as a security officer in Richard Butler's Aryan Nations compound. A book found in the van abandoned by Furrow, entitled "War Cycles, Peace Cycles," was written by Richard Kelly Hoskins, who is one of the principal ideologues of Christian Identity," said Mark Potok of the Southern Poverty Law Center in Montgomery, Ala., which tracks hate groups. While Furrow's sanity has been taken into consideration, it is still believed that Buford was acting as a Phineas Priest. Hard-line Christian Identity adherents, which many members of Aryan Nations are, believe that in order for the second coming of Christ to occur the earth must be swept clean of all satanic elements which, of course, include Jews, non-whites and homosexuals. Those wishing to become "Phineas Priests" initiate themselves with a lone act of violence that lends itself to this ultimate ethnic cleansing. Their "Bible" is another book by Richard Kelly Hoskins entitled "Vigilantes of Christendom: the Story of the Phineas Priesthood". The book encourages its followers to follow the example of the biblical Phineas, grandson of the priest Aaron in the Book of Numbers, who kills a prince of Israel for marrying a woman from another tribe. In return for this deed, Phineas receives the "covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God." The mission of the group is seen as one that will outlaw "interbreeding" and "root sodomites from the land." And the book lists several examples of how to do this one of which is the 1984 slaying of radio talk host Alan Berg by The Order. This in and of itself, is interesting in the Furrow case since Buford Furrow had taken up residency with one Debbie Matthews - the widow of the revered Robert Matthews, founder of The Order."

http://eyeonhate.com/pows/pows5.html

Christian Identity regularly passes out hate literature at gun shows.

[Liberal Classic]

112. Fallacy-O-Rama

I could just as easily claim gun control is wrong because Pol Pot's or Stalin's governments banned their citizens from owning firearms. I would be wrong, of course, to cast guilt by association. It's much easier to engage in mental masturbation than actually back up one's opinions with supporting evidence. Don't let me stop you. :)

[MrBenchley]

113. Hell....we hear that crap all the time from the RKBA crowd

"Don't let me stop you."
Thanks. I won't.

[Liberal Classic]

115. Those silly syllogisms get in the way of a good rant

Some benevolent governments restrict gun ownership, such as Australia, but some totalitarian dictatorships do the same, such as Cambodia under Pol Pot. Is gun control right because Australia has it, or is it wrong because Cambodia had it? Just because one government enforces a ban on firearms does not make it right or wrong. You're drawing a conclusion without having established a premise.

You can gratify yourself all you want claiming people who oppose gun control are racist, but it doesn't prove your point. There are valid reasons for supporting restrictions to the ownership of weapons but you don't seem to advocate them.

I wrote: "Don't let me stop you."

To which you replied: "Thanks. I won't."

Great! You're always good for a laugh. :)

[MrBenchley]

116. Yeah, but sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander

"You can gratify yourself all you want claiming people who oppose gun control are racist"
Gee, and you're perfectly welcome to come up with somebody spouting this "gun rights" horseshit who ISN'T the scum of the earth. Last time the RKBA crowd started a thread of just pro-gun Democrats it petered out after half a dozen names....and was already down to the state legislature level....and some of them were real DINO specimens.

But the plain fact is that this dishonest movement is being promoted by dishonest turds like AshKKKroft, LaPierre, Nugent and Pratt. As this Dishonor roll shows.

By contrast, look at the NRA's blacklist, where nearly every group of decent Americans is listed as an enemy.

[Liberal Classic]

117. Ergo: those who spout gun rights are racist scum

It's an entertaining tautology: Only racist scum spouts gun rights so if you do spout gun rights you are therefore racist scum.

There are a lot of rank and file Democrats who are happy with the Brady Bill but get nervous when they hear gun owners tarred as nazis and racists -- and rightly so. Even Al Gore's record in Congress was not as anti-gun as many people (including the NRA) made it out to be during the election.

[MrBenchley]

120. Jeepers, that IS a shame

Don't know how anyone could leap to that conclusion looking at national spokespeople like Ted Nugent, Larry Pratt, John AshKKKroft, Tom DeLay, Trent Lott and Jeff Cooper.

And there are a lot of rank and file Democrats who see no reason to pander to the GOP's loudest and scummiest extremist group.

"Even Al Gore's record in Congress was not as anti-gun as many people (including the NRA) made it out to be during the election."
No shit? I was sure from the wailing and horror expressed by the RKBA crowd in 2000 that any minute Tipper was going to round up their guns and make them wear dresses. Guess that was why senile old Charlton Heston wanted Al lynched.

[MrBenchley]

114. John M. Olin Foundation, Inc.

The New York-based John M. Olin Foundation, which grew out of a family manufacturing business (chemical and munitions), funds right-wing think tanks like the American Enterprise Institute, (home of crackpot sccientist John Lott) the Heritage Foundation, the Manhattan Institute for Public Policy Research, and the Claremont Institute, which we’ve already seen runs a phony gun rights group.
The Olin Foundation has paid a small fortune over the years to establish Lott as an authority.

Says the VPC: "There are significant links between the John M. Olin Foundation and the Olin Corporation, which owns Winchester Ammunition (the largest producer of ammunition in the U.S. and the manufacturer of the infamous "Black Talon" bullet). Olin Corporation at one time also owned Winchester Firearms, a trade name which it now licenses out. Winchester Ammunition stands to reap financial gain from the increased sale of handgun ammunition generated by the passage of lax concealed weapons laws."

[MrBenchley]

118. Randy Weaver

Weaver's a white supremacist who became famous when he started a firefight with the FBI at his compound in Idaho (he ducked a court date for illegal gun sales). His wife and son and a deputy U.S. marshal were killed in the firefight and resulting siege.

Since hten he's been a regular guest star on the gun show circuit, and the poster child for McVeigh wannabes.

[MrBenchley]

121. "Bo" Gritz

"Colonel James "Bo" Gritz, who deplored the deadly Oklahoma bombing but commented that it was a "Rembrandt - a masterpiece of art and science," is highly influential in the anti-government "patriot" movement. The former Green Beret and Presidential candidate of the Populist Party - a political party founded by Willis Carto, leader of the anti-Semitic Liberty Lobby - recently created a "Constitutional Covenant Community" in northern Idaho, also referred to as a Christian Covenant Community.
He has also compared the U.S. government to the Soviet KGB and the Nazi Gestapo. He has expressed support for the white supremacist "Identity" movement, which preaches that Jews are "Satan's spawn" and that non-whites are "mud races." "

http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/orgs/american/adl/paranoia-as-patriotism/bo-gritz.html

He's a staple of the gun show circuit...

[FlashHarry]

123. Locking

This thread is getting a little long. If anyone's interested in continuing the subject, please feel free to start a new thread.

Thanks.

FlashHarry
DU Moderator