How a semiautomatic pistol operates

[tburnsten]

Here is a neat interactive illustration of a Glock model 23 .40 S&W detachable box-magazine fed locked breech semiautomatic pistol. All of us here at DU, with the exception of any unknown Glock armorers, can learn quite a bit about the operation of semiautomatic pistols from this illustration, making our discussions more informed, and therefore, more productive. I highly encourage everyone to spend a few minutes paying close attention to this illustration so that you can further your knowledge of a class of weapon that is often brought up in public policy debates, and so understand the discussion more fully.

http://www.genitron.com/Glock23/IntGlock.html



This is the way all Glocks operate, one of the most ubiquitous autoloading pistols in the nation, found in many police and civilian duty, competition, target, open, and concealed carry holsters. I myself CC a Glock model 27, a slightly smaller but otherwise identical version of the pistol in the illustration. Although this illustration is of a Glock, the basic principles of operation apply to most common pistols. For instance the Browning tilting barrel method of breech locking is by far the most common in service-caliber autos (9mm, .40 S&W, .357 Sig, .45 ACP, and .45 GAP).

I feel that this thread will help our discussions on public policy as it relates to firearms immensely.

[Aviation Pro]

1. It will....

...a lot of people think that the operation of a firearm is some sort of magic. All it really is is physics and overpressure in action.

[tburnsten]

2. Absolutely!

I am a little worried that one of the mods will decide that this thread is not public policy related, but the truth is, guns and public policy entails a vast amount of technical terms and mechanical knowledge, and without a good visual demonstration of how they work like the Genitron site, it is going to be hard for many people to have a fulfilling discussion.

[SteveM]

43. This should eliminate any confusion between semi-autos and nail guns...

Even if people don't like guns, don't own them or even want them "controlled," they should take the time to learn how they operate, at least to the extent of properly identifying them.

[TomInTib]

3. Here's what I carry

Springfield XD-45



This pistol really gets after it.

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ga_handguns/springfieldxd45_012307/

[tburnsten]

4. Very similiar in operation

Though the XD has probably more user-oriented safeties than any other pistol known to man, now that they have also introduced the optional thumb safety.

[TomInTib]

5. The multiple safeties are one of the reasons I have it.

To protect me from myself.

Plus, it is light enough to stick into my waistband. And I won't blow my ass away if I have to pull it quick.

[Dimensio0]

16. I am also an owner of an XD45 Compact...

...however I would advise against storing any firearm in the waistband of an owner's pants.

[tburnsten]

17. Without a good holster

that will prevent accidental discharges caused by objects getting stuck in the trigger guard, or even a tucked in shirt, though that is quite a stretch. There are some states that actually don't allow carry without holsters, an actual "common-sense" gun regulation I think most owners would support.

[virginia mountainman]

18. Certain situations...

Like during vacation...When I am in my shorts, and teeshirt...

I do carry a Makarov pistol, in my front pocket, behind my wallet... And I carry it, with a loaded magazine, in the gun but NOT a round in the chamber,, for safety sake.

The 1911 .45 can be a bit "cumbersome" at times.

[virginia mountainman]

57. Here is a cutaway showing operation, of a Walther P38 Pistol..

Very nice gun...

http://www.p38guns.com/AnimatedP38.htm

[TomInTib]

21. I'll bet you don't spend much time in Oakland.

I would much prefer to feel my own gun in the small of my back rather than the pistol of some crackhead.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

32. Oaktown! Where grand theft auto is not a video game!

nt

[spin]

41. Be careful of small of back carry (SOB)...

If you fall backward and land on the weapon, remember it's resting right against your spine.

Yes, I am speaking from experience. The MRI scans indicate that my back is in bad shape with problems in multiple locations. Obviously, the fall and landing on the gun didn't cause all these problems, but it contributed to a few of them.

From: Selecting the Correct Concealment Holsterhttp://www.center-fire.com/concealedcarry/selectingholster.htm

Small of the Back: Not our favorite method of carry. You have the least amount of security from begin disarmed and the most amount of potential injury if you go down. We have worked with a number of officers who carried a backup with a small of the back holster who injured their back when falling on the handgun. In fact I personally received permanent soft tissue back damage from carrying in the pants just right of my spine. When drawing the weapon you have have an increased chance of sweeping the muzzle past unintended targets.

[TomInTib]

49. Yeah, I know.

Problem is, I generally wear Levis (not baggy pants, either) and boots, so ankle holsters and pocket carry are not really options available to me.

And my 642 just doesn't carry much intimidation.

Fortunately, I haven't fallen backwards in a long time, and do not expect any such problem such as that any time soon.

[spin]

53. I was ambushed by a pet cat...

I was headed to work and had a Beretta Centurion 40 cal pistol in the small of my back.

My pet cat run between my legs and in attempting not to step on him, I lost my balance and fell backwards. I had taken some judo courses through the years and knew how to fall. All that training did no good whatsoever with the gun pressed up against my spine.

Sometimes really stupid things happen.

[TomInTib]

54. That's how shit happens.

My motto has always been, "Sure, why not?".

Because all the preparation, training, and caution in the World ain't gonna save you when the trash truck jumps the curb.

Maybe I'll go back to my trusty old leather wallet with the .25Mag derringer built into it.

It has a finger hole right in the middle of it, so you can reach in your pocket and pull it out, ready to rock.

"Hey, man, gimme your wallet."

"No problem, just be cool."

[spin]

55. Here in Florida...

I knew several people who carried derringers as concealed weapons. Very easy to conceal and fairly accurate at very close range.

review of the .22 Magnum "Dixie Derringer" from Charter 2000:
http://www.gunblast.com/Dixie-Derringer.htm

I have never seen the wallet holster you describe but some research showed a possible problem with the design.

Placing the High-Standard derringer in the "Wallet-Holster" negates
the use of the birdshead type stock which can no longer be gripped
by the hand in the conventional manner. The derringer thus becomes
a concealed gadget device in the same category as a can gun, a belt
buckle pistol, or a cigarette lighter gun, and is classified as
"any other weapon" in the amended National Firearms Act of 1968.

There is no violation of the National Firearms Act in the mere
possession of a derringer with a rifled bore, nor in making,
transferring, or receiving a "Wallet-Holster" designed to contain
the derringer. However, any person who might possess the installed
combination of the High-Standard derringer or any other derringer
designed to be carried and fired in the "Wallet Holster" would be
in possession of a "firearm" as defined in Section 5845(a)(5) of
the Act. Such a firearm is subject to the tax imposed under
Section 5821, and to the making provisions of Section 5822 of the
Act. Sections 5811 and 5812 on transfer taxes and transfer
provisions are also applicable. Publication 603 (Rev. 6-74) and
its 1975 Supplement, ATF P 5300.5, which contains the sections of
law mentioned above, are enclosed for your convenient reference.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter18.txt

However wallet holsters are still being sold, so the above info might be outdated. I'm not sure that the newer pocket holsters have the finger hole you describe to allow you to shoot. Without the finger hole you should have no problem with the Feds.
http://www.pocketholsters.com/HS_Derringer_Pocket_Wallet_Hol/hs_derringer_pocket_wallet_hol.html

[423aaron]

64. Not only is falling an issue, Getting rear ended while driving.

[spin]

8. The grip safety makes me like this more than a Glock...

I always liked that feature on 1911 style 45 autos. Also, in a full sized weapon, the 45 acp is an excellent if not the best choice.

I could carry this in North Florida in the winter. It would be a little harder to conceal in the summer months. Currently, I'm carrying a S&W model 642 snub nosed .38 in a holster in my front right pocket. Not anywhere near the fire power but it is light and easy to carry.

[TomInTib]

12. I have a 642.

It's a newer model, called a PowerPort.

I keep it in the pocket behind the passenger seat. No hammer to snag.

The thing can make it through most metal detectors (not the I would ever try that, of course).

The grip is the easiest I have ever experienced. And the pistol weighs less than a pound.

You know, this is fun. I wish there weren't so many know-nothing-but-hysteria types on DU. They should try to understand the fact that most gun owners are very responsible people. Much more responsible than they are, running down the road, talking on their phones or punching away on their Crackberries.

[AtheistCrusader]

22. I highly doubt it would make it through many metal detectors.

That is the specific purpose behind the '86 law requiring 3.5oz of metal in the gun. Not that many guns get anywhere near that low level of metal. That revolver has a stainless cylinder and aluminium frame. Both metals should be detected fine. A metal does not have to be ferrous to be detected.

Edit: Correction, cylinder, not barrel is Stainless. Does it have a stainless barrel liner?

[TomInTib]

24. I have carried it into QualComm (Giants games) several times.

I think their detectors are mere window-dressing.

They are more interested in seeing if you have any food or beverages in your possession. Gotta watch that bottom line, you know.

[old mark]

35. The purpose of making these guns out of plastic

was really not to defeat airport metal detectors, but to decrease weight. Glocks were designed as military and police pistols, that is guns that would be carried a lot and not fired much. They were also designed to be simple to operate, and to have few parts to wear, break, or lose.

It NEVER was a criteria to make them hard to detect by metal detecrors - this is a pure fiction created by the anti's.

(I also remember one company announcing they had developed a new finish that resisted fingerprints, and the howls that announcement created, The idea being to prevent rust - largely caused by the oil and sweat in fingerprints-not to somehow allow criminals to escapr detection via fingerprint-less guns. Fucking nonsense.)

Have a great day.

mark

[spin]

25. I wasn't aware of the 642 powerport...

I do own a S&W 686 PowerPort. The porting really helps to tame the recoil from the .357 rounds.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

33. crackberries! I love it!

nt

[423aaron]

65. Porting can also damage your eyes

If you are firing from a close retention position.
Not to mention facial burns and loss of night vision.

[benEzra]

79. From firearms instructor John Farnam's blog:

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/2004/23Sept04.html

23Sept04

Comments on ported handgun barrels, from a friend at a large, metro police academy:

"We had a minor injury on our range yesterday. Students were firing at close range with pistols held close to holsters, with the support hand in a high, blocking posture. A student suddenly realized he had a laceration on the inside of his left forearm. He subsequently found a sliver of bullet jacket

lodged in a cut on his arm.

A band-aid sufficed, but I was concerned about the origin of the bullet spatter. I then noticed that this student was using a ported G23. A stude nt standing to his right found a similar fragment lodged in the underside of her cap visor. This piece was a long, curled ribbon, much like that from a sha rp drill in soft metal. Ammunition was white box, generic. I've had similar occurrences with ported guns, but this is our first injury, albeit a minor one.

In any case, I agree with your assessment of ported pistols. The only hole that belong in a serious pistol's barrel is the one the bullet comes out of."

Comment: This kind of thing is surely not likely to be helpful during a real fight. Ported barrels do not belong on serious guns.

/John

[billyoc]

10. Loaded chamber indicator? Man, that's nice.

[TomInTib]

11. I have owned many pistols....

and this one is the sweetest, by far.

They took everything the 1911 and Glock did best and incorporated those features in one of the most (if not the most) reliable firearms made.

There is an easy laser-sight adaptation available, as well.

Check out the link that I provided.

Tom

[AtheistCrusader]

23. It has every feature

I could ever want in a pistol. I could not have suggested a better list of specs. I carry the XD9, 4" service model pretty much at all times.

I am not interested in the newest addition of a Thumb Safety. At all.

[Irreverend IX]

30. I don't think so highly of the XD...

The Glock is superior in just about every way. Glocks have a short trigger reset, whereas the XD trigger reset is long, and will sometimes leave you pulling air after a shot. The XD striker spring wears out quickly because it stays fully-cocked all the time, whereas the Glock striker spring is partially-cocked before the trigger is pulled and lasts virtually forever. The Glock has a lower bore axis, which reduces the felt recoil, and there are aftermarket parts and accessories for it everywhere. Springfield refuses to release replacement parts for the XD, and if yours gets broken you have to send it to them to get it fixed.

As for the loaded chamber indicator, the Glock has that too in a sense, because if the trigger is in its rear position you know that the trigger has been pulled and that the chamber is unloaded. If you're carrying a Glock with the chamber empty, it's a good idea to dry-fire it so that the trigger is back. Conversely, when you see the trigger forward you should assume the gun is loaded (well, you should always treat the gun as if it's loaded). And grip safeties are kind of pointless if you ask me.

[Callisto32]

45. I belive you are mistaken about the spring.

There may be something else happening, if the springs are actually more likely to wear out. But a spring will not weaken because of remaining compressed, unless that compression is beyond what the spring is designed to do. A spring wears through repeated cycles of compression and expansion because of metal fatigue, and does not (or should not, provided it is properly designed and manufactured) have a propensity to stay compressed just because it has remained that way for any length of time. Much more likely, if the problem exits it is because of a failure somewhere in the manufacturing process, such as an incorrect temper of the metal used in the springs.

Cheers.

[423aaron]

66. The Glock has a loaded chamber indicator.

It is also the extractor. When a round is in the chamber the extractor will stick out a little to the right side. There you can feel it with your trigger finger ( assuming you are a righty).

My biggest beef with the XD is you must make sure you depress the grip safety to rack the slide. If you are not used to this it can slow you down.

[Xenotime]

74. How safe can a plastic gun be?

[ManiacJoe]

75. Very safe since ...

... all the important parts are still metal. Amazing things can be done with state-of-the-art plastics.

[tburnsten]

78. Only the frame is plastic

and the polymers used in firearms are very tough, durable materials that work quite well as a frame material while reducing weight significantly over a comparable steel or even aluminum framed pistol. The slide, barrel, firing pin, and all other parts that experience most of the stress are all made of steel, the frame has a nice recoil spring to cushion it from the batterings of the slide in recoil.

[tburnsten]

6. For a more complete thread

Apparently they also have several other very common firearms, I will now post them as well, because this is valuable information that will help us lead more educated discussions. Maybe with mod approval we could sticky this and make it a thread where people can ask questions and post answers about the way specific firearms work?

Here is a Smith and Wesson Model 66 K-frame .357 Magnum revolver, another common type of handgun, and representative of most all the Smith and Wesson revolvers.

http://www.genitron.com/IntRevolver.html

And here is a Beretta Model 92FS. This pistol is serving in the U.S. military as the M9, and so has a place of special relevance when talking about common militia arms of the day. In this case, it is the Beretta.

http://www.genitron.com/IntPistol.html

Here is a glossary of terms, to help people become familiar with the specific parts of a handgun that may come up in a public policy discussion.

http://www.genitron.com/Glossary.html



Almost most importantly, here is a table of common handgun calibers, describing the ammunition that is in common use in handguns at this point in time. This is especially useful for policy debates regarding target shooting as a valid reason for gun ownership, but not self defense. And it will help posters become more familiar with the capabilities of the handguns relevant to public policy discussions.

http://www.genitron.com/Ammunition/Ammo.html

[spin]

42. Excellent info...thanks (n/t)

[423aaron]

67. Outstanding!

[billyoc]

7. I love this old darling, it's the most modern firearm I'm permitted to own

for various administrative reasons. :hi:

The heavy octagonal barrel makes it feel like firing a .22.



The New Model Army was one of the major handguns of the Civil War and was the last of Remington's .44 caliber percussion revolvers. It's solid frame with a topstrap over the cylindr made it one of the strongest revolvers yet designed. Has a 2 piece grip with European walnut stock. Frame is blued steel. Barrel is a .44 caliber, blued , 8", tapered octagon. Brass triggerguard with color casehardened hammer.

[spin]

9. A beautiful weapon (n/t)

[TomInTib]

14. A true beauty!

And an absolute dream to fire.

You actually have one of these or a repro?

Either way, I am slightly envious.

Tom

[billyoc]

27. Oh, no, not a real one. I wouldn't dare fire a real one for fear of damaging it.

I have repros.

[old mark]

36. Where do you live?

that this is the most modern firearm you can own?
mark

[billyoc]

39. America.

I got caught carrying in New York without a permit 15 years ago. Gun was legal, holster wasn't. :)

It's black powder for me from now on, looks like. :hi:

I live in New York City.

[423aaron]

68. Felony conviction?

[the_real_38]

63. My God, it's Josey Wales ...

.... you and them Missouri wildcats ain't givin' in to no union.

[jody]

13. Kick and recommended. Excellent contribution to the 2nd Amendment discussion on DU. n/t

[tburnsten]

15. Also, please try to keep the discussion

as closely related to policy as possible. I will PM Krispos and ask if this can be a question and answer thread so people can ask about different firearms they are discussing, if we keep it to one thread then I think it will go over far better than turning the guns forum into a forum about guns. I'd like to avoid having the thread locked, to avoid losing the usefulness of the information posted.

Thanks!

[old mark]

38. This information is useful .

It clearly shows that the gun can not fire without a human being intending to fire it. It shows there is no "evil" in it, anymore than there is in a screwdriver. It is a simple machine made of basic components that is meant to be used by a person, not to simply discharge itself randomly of its own volition.



mark

[SteveM]

44. This lights up an idea...

Wouldn't it be nice if a "package" (on-line or hardware) explaining different firearms, from revolvers to rifles, could be assembled and sent to all MSM outlets? In this way, writers dealing with gun "issues" would not continue to make the mistake of conflating AK-47 clones with AK-47 full-auto, semi-auto pistols with "assault weapons," and "cop killer" bullets with deer rifle ammo. In this manner, when a mistake is made, Second Amendment defenders could point to the error, referencing the package "sent" to the reporter.

[spin]

47. It would be nice but it would probably be ignored...

The anti-gun people love to manufacture new definitions to promote their views.

For example the new definition of a machine gun in D.C.

Dick Heller is the man who brought the lawsuit against the District's 32-year-old ban on handguns. He was among the first in line Thursday morning to apply for a handgun permit.

But when he tried to register his semi-automatic weapon, he says he was rejected. He says his gun has seven bullet clip. Heller says the City Council legislation allows weapons with fewer than eleven bullets in the clip. A spokesman for the DC Police says the gun was a bottom-loading weapon, and according to their interpretation, all bottom-loading guns are outlawed because they are grouped with machine guns.
http://www.wusa9.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=74036&catid=158

Also this is the first time I've heard of "bottom-loading weapons". I guess this sounds nastier than semi-auto.

"Bottom feeders" might also be a better term than "politicians" when describing the idiots who run the local government in Washington D.C.

[423aaron]

69. The second amendment foundation

has a clinic they put on a couple of times a year.

They invite writers to the range for Basic safety, marksmanship, function, ballistic, and Hands on with various guns.

[pipoman]

19. This is a 1911 animation

which is fun to play with. If you push the 'split' buttons it will skeletonize the image.

http://www.m1911.org/loader.swf

I agree many people don't realize how mechanically accurate and intentionally a gun operates. Several things must happen simultaneously before the gun can fire. Removing the mystery is key to common understanding.

[old mark]

37. Thanks!

I own and sometimes carry 1911's along with several other types of handguns.
I can't tell you how good it is to see some rational responses to "the gun just went off" that I see so much on the media.
Guns DO NOT "just go off" - they require some deliberate action by a human being in order to fire,without which they are inert objects.

I learned to shoot in Cub Scouts in the late 1950's and I have never seen a gun "just go off" any more than I have seen a hammer drive a nail on its own.

mark

[spin]

48. Another great animation...

I've shot a lot of rounds through .45 autos through the years and I still find this animation fascinating.

[pipoman]

51. My wife carries a Kimber 1911

she spent quite a lot of time playing with this animation. She said it gave her a better understanding and made her feel her gun is safer than it seemed before she knew how it works.

[spin]

52. I can see how watching the animation would make...

you feel safer with the weapon.

The Kimber 1911 is a fine weapon and I've fired several of the full sized versions. While it's possible to conceal a full sized .45 auto, it's a bulky and uncomfortable weapon. The Kimber Ultra Carry pistols at 25 oz and with the 3" barrel look like a good choice.

So I was wondering which Kimber your wife has and how she carries it. I often have women ask me about concealed carry. Most, like my daughter, seem to prefer to carry in their purse.

[pipoman]

56. Long story short...

I bought a Pro Eclipse (solid stainless) for range fun and winter owb carry. The day after I bought it we went to the range. She shot the Eclipse then told me, "this is my gun now, you'll have to buy yourself another one". So I left the range area and bought an Ultra CDP (my second choice). I thought she may like it better when she felt how light it is...she didn't. She doesn't carry all of the time, when she does she either carries strong side in a close fit paddle holster with loose fitting clothing or in a velcro faced purse.

[HughMoran]

20. Pretty cool - I looked at every slide

Thanks for posting - very informational.

[tburnsten]

28. Any time!

I realized that lots of us here probably have never actually looked at the inside of a firearm in operation before, and realized that seeing it could really improve the quality of our talks.

[Wcross]

26. I carry a Kimber pro carry II.

I INSIST on a backstrap safety on any handgun I own. I could care less about a "loaded chamber indicator", I treat EVERY gun as if it was loaded.

[Endangered Specie]

29. Lets not forget about straight blowback action pistols

Straight blowback differs from the short recoil locked breech principal in that the barrel is, instead of recoiling a short distance, fixed to the frame, and the components do NOT lock together. What holds the barrel and breech closed (but unlocked) is simply the weight of the slide/breech and the recoil spring.

Straight Blowback works only on low pressure rounds because, as soon as firing commences, the breech will begin recoiling straight back (hence the name blowback), high pressure rounds would either a massive breech weight or the cartridge case would split, as its being pulled out while under tremendous pressure from the burning gunpowder.

The whole point of the short recoil action is to keep the breech locked for that split second that it takes for the bullet to leave the muzzle, only then do the pressures return to normal. But if you can get away with straight blowback it is nice because it is alot more simpler design.

Straight blowback only works on rounds such as 9x18 Makarov, .380 (aka 9x17), or lower power rounds (.32acp, .25acp, .22lr...). High pressure rounds such as 9mm, .45, .40s&w, 10mm, only work in short recoil guns.

I like the idea of this thread, in the future you should consider a cartridge/caliber/bullet thread so we can discuss why .38 and .357 can be fired in the same revolver with the same caliber barrel etc... ;)

[Callisto32]

46. High pressure, blowback operated weapons are possible

just not very readily in a handgun, because of the necessarily massive breechblock that is required. However, the Hi-point carbine is available in both 9x19mm and .40S&W, both of which are high pressure cartridges and function in the blowback operated weapon. The breechblock of this thing is massive, don't get me wrong, so applying the concept to a handgun is pretty silly if you want to keep the weight at all manageable. For handguns the 9x18 (Makarov) cartridge is pretty much the upper level for a blowback operated design.

This post is not intended to flame your post, sir, just to point out that technology can be applied to high-intensity cartridges if weight is not an issue. It is made purely to add a bit to a technical discussion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hi-Point_995_Carbine

[Irreverend IX]

50. There's also delayed blowback...

You can use blowback operation for a powerful cartridge if the action is delayed in some way so that the pressure can dissipate before the slide moves backwards. The HK P9 and CZ52 are two handguns that use roller-delayed blowback, the same operating system used in the HK G3 rifle and MP5.

Even more interesting is gas-delayed blowback. Gas-operated rifles like the M16 and AK-47 tap gas from the barrel to cycle the action, but gas-delayed blowback guns tap gas for the exact opposite purpose; to hold the action closed until the pressure drops. The HK P7 pistol and the Steyr GB use this operating system, along with a few others.

The main disadvantage of these operating systems is that they require much more precise machining than Browning systems and they are less reliable. If the gas port on a gas-delayed blowback gun gets clogged, it will become a simple blowback gun, and if you fire it it'll recoil like hell and likely damage the frame.

[Endangered Specie]

59. While were at it, lets not forget full blown gas action pistols

like Desert Eagles!

[Endangered Specie]

58. No problem, I wonder if we should discuss the merits of a hi-point firearm

:evilgrin:

[Callisto32]

61. Actually, those little carbines are pretty good.

Don't get me wrong, they are knockabout guns and I only have experience with one example; but the one I tried out went bang every time and we fired it fairly extensively. More than sufficient accuracy for such an arm, but by no means match-grade. Honestly, if they put a better stock on it, or the aftermarket stocks weren't so expensive, I'd pick one up in a heartbeat and I'd gladly pay 50 dollars more for the upgrade.

[423aaron]

70. I hear that as well about the long guns.

No personal experience however.

The hand guns tend to be unreliable. That is from experience teaching HCP classes.

[tburnsten]

62. Someone tried to sell me one once

I couldn't get past the ridiculous slide or the fact that he wanted nearly $400 for it. What a tool.

[jeepnstein]

72. They're OK...

The biggest knock on HiPoint is they are cheap. Nobody wants a cheap gun because that means poor people can afford to defend themselves. Cheap guns also tend to drive the price down on the better stuff. If a man can only afford a HiPoint then that's what he should buy. Their little carbines are nice and I've considered one a few times in 9mm.

[Endangered Specie]

76. you can get a much better quality gun though...

Those CZ-82's sell for 150-200 and they are all steel ambidextrous 12rd 9x18 makarov guns (and 9x18 is about as cheap and as effective as 9x19)

[tburnsten]

77. I wouldn't lump 9x18 with 9x19 for effectiveness

after all, the 9x18 was designed to safely milk all the performance out of an unlocked breech weapon possible without going to a huge slide design, such as the Hi-Point. The 9x19 is almost twice as "powerful" as the .380 ACP, which is the cartridge that compares most closely with the 9x18 Mak.

[Endangered Specie]

80. But does 'power' = stopping power?

They both put about the same hole in something, actually I believe 9x18 is marginally larger in caliber but still. The 9x18 does go slower, but I believe that there are JHP options that get the 'minimum' 12" penetration with decent expansion.

Also, blowback is more simple a design. And a Makarov or CZ has to be alot easier to (legally) conceal.

9x18's main problem is you can't get it *anywhere* like 9x19.

[tburnsten]

81. When I can get HST for a 9x18

I'll look into it. No Gold Dot, no Golden Saber, no HST, no Ranger-T, no XTP, no dice for a defensive caliber in that size platform. I'll stick with a Glock 27 with HST, a known performer through barriers like heavy clothes, over a 9x18 generic JHP that will probably clog up and pass right through, on down the street to who knows where.

[Endangered Specie]

82. HST isnt the end all and be all of bullets...

its relatively new, so theres no way it can be totally 'proven'... and besides an HST in 9x18 isn't likely to feed well in a typical Makarov or CZ.

Also 9x18 isn't exactly the type of bullet that is going to go right through a bad guy in JHP.

Penetration is considerably more important than expansion and some people carry FMJ in 9x18 to that effect. After all, two holes are better than one, and gun safety rule #4 applies even during a gunfight (be sure of what your target is and whats beyond).

And of course, the olbligatory "placement is king" cheaper ammo = more practice = more likely to hit what you need to hit when playing 'for keeps'.

[madeline_con]

31. It fires as fast as you can pull the trigger.

See, the post could have been so much shorter.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

34. WOW! Kept me up way past my bedtime.

I could never figure out how my guns knew when they were empty to lock the slide back. Frankly, I'm still not sure but I have an inkling of understanding and a whole lot better idea of how my guns work, and a whole lot more appreciation for something so complicated that works so fast.

I thought my hand guns were expensive. Knowing how complicated they actually are, I think they were a bargain now.

Great post, k&r

[Irreverend IX]

40. Here's how it works:

Take a look at the front of a pistol magazine. You'll notice it's not symmetrical. On one side of the magazine there's a little notch, and the magazine follower (the thing that supports the rounds in the magazine and has the spring underneath it) has a little "shelf" that shows through this notch. The shelf is below the part of the magazine follower that actually makes contact with the rounds. The purpose of the shelf is to push the slide stop lever up when the magazine is empty. You know how when you pull the slide back and push the slide stop lever up with your thumb, the slide will lock back. When the magazine is empty, the follower comes up to the top, the little shelf pushes the slide stop lever up from the inside, and the slide locks back just as if you'd pushed the lever up with your thumb.

I'd illustrate this with a picture if I could, but there's nothing on Google images that shows the top of a mag in much detail.

[OffWithTheirHeads]

60. Got it! Thanks! Another of lifes mysterys solved.

You wouldn't happen to know the meaning of life by any chance?

[423aaron]

71. A few good youtube animations

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DiVuQ67ZhA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZipq6D6D9k&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQe864rGLyk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sNDTdKQNVU

[JMackT]

73. great animations

I carry a full size kimber warrior

[brolin_1911a1]

83. 1911 Cocked and Locked

On a related subject, several weeks ago I was showing my new boomstickholster for my 1911 to a friend. He was shocked, stating, "You're carrying that cocked?!?!" I replied that of course it was cocked because that's the safest way to carry it. He was unaware of that fact, as I'm sure many others are unaware, so I'm including the following URL. It not only has a nice clear text explanation of the workings of the 1911 but also a nice color diagram showing how the safety immobilizes the sear and prevents accidental discharges.

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/tech/cockedandlocked.htm

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

84. Nice job.

[tburnsten]

85. Thanks!

I didn't think it would stick around so long, hopefully some people got to lear some new information from it!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

86. I think you were successful.