CBC: U.S. travellers carrying their personal guns into Canada: report

[tuvor]

Americans cherish their constitutional right to keep and bear arms, even when they come to Canada, documents show.

Intelligence summaries compiled by Canada Border Services Agency show that while the agency's officers discover smuggled guns destined for the Canadian criminal underworld, most firearms they turn up belong to law-abiding Americans.

"Most of the firearms seized by CBSA at the land ports of entry are the personal firearms of legitimate U.S. travellers who neglected — intentionally or not — to declare their personal firearms," says the agency's strategic intelligence analysis division in an undated report covering the period 2004-2006.

The report, along with other previously classified monthly intelligence summaries dating back to January 2007, were obtained by the Canadian Press under the federal Access to Information Act.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2008/07/07/guns-smuggle.html

[MicaelS]

1. Since so many Canadians seem to object

To Americans transporting guns through Canada on the way to Alaska for hunting, there's a simple solution for Americans. Stop traveling to, or, through Canada at all. Don't give Canada one damn penny of American tourist dollars. And while we're at it, we can repeal NAFTA, and bring all those American automobile manufacturing jobs back from Canada AND Mexico.

[tuvor]

2. Expecting foreigners to obey our laws...

Yeah, we're funny that way.

Can you show me where it says Canadians are allowed to travel over the border into the USA with their own firearms? Or are your laws like ours?

[michreject]

5. I shoot with Canadians every Sunday

They have no problems bring them across the border.

[MicaelS]

16. I didn't say anything about Americans

NOT having to obey your laws. We absolutely should. What I am saying, is that after reading all the posts in that link, many Canadian seems to object to Americans EVEN LEGALLY traveling through Canada on their way to Alaska. Canadian don't want us there at all, fine with me.

[tuvor]

30. My apologies; didn't realize you were referring to the comments.

Only stupid Canadians object to visitors doing whatever they like within the law.

And yeah, there are lots of stupid Canadians.

[MicaelS]

32. No problem n/t

[aspergris]

3. my mother and father in law did this

They went to canada, and took their gun. It took TONS of paperwork, etc. but it is doable.

No, they did not have to shoot any bears :)

[iverglas]

7. yup

If you are eligible to possess the firearm under Canadian rules, you may bring it, with the proper non-resident licence.

http://www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca/info_for-renseignement/non-residents/default_e.asp

A US citizen will not likely be eligible to possess a handgun under Canadian rules -- other than someone travelling here for an actual competition, and absolutely certainly not to tote around on his/her person or in his/her vehicle. It is handguns that people are toting around that way that are of course almost exclusively in issue in these "personal firearms" cases.

[tburnsten]

8. If they can't transport it in their vehicle?

how could they get their competition gun to their competition?

[aspergris]

10. it wasn't

a competition gun. it was for (bear) defense, and they were allowed to transport it in their RV

[tburnsten]

11. I got that

But I was asking about iverglas' statement about Americans being able to bring an ordinarily restricted gun for competition shooting, then she immediately stated that they would certainly not be allowed to parade around with the gun on their person or in their vehicle, as if they would have some other way to transport it. Should they teleport the gun to the range they will be shooting at?

[iverglas]

12. get a grip

I'm sorry, but that doesn't even deserve the time it takes to tell you it doesn't deserve the time it takes to tell you ...

[iverglas]

13. but since you don't seem to have a mouse

Let me click that link for you.

http://www.cfc-cafc.gc.ca/factsheets/visitin_e.asp

A competition handgun is a restricted firearm.

Storage, Display and Transportation

When you bring a firearm to Canada, you must comply with the Storage, Display, Transportation and Handling of Firearms by Individuals Regulations (link).

To be able to bring a restricted firearm to Canada in person, you will need to obtain an Authorization to Transport (ATT) from the CFO of the province where you will be entering Canada. If you have a valid PAL and registration certificate, you will be able to apply in advance. If you will be bringing the firearms with you and declaring them with a Non-Resident Firearm Declaration, you will need to wait until your declaration has been confirmed, before you call the CFO to request an ATT.

You can reach any of the CFOs Monday to Friday, from 9 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. local time, by calling 1 800 731-xxxx. Keep these hours of operation in mind when making your travel arrangements. If you are unable to arrange your arrival time to coincide with the CFO office hours of operation, you may wish to call the CFO in advance to see if you can make other arrangements to obtain an ATT.

[DBoon]

4. I say we make a deal

allow USAians to travel with their personal firearms and Canadians to travel with BC bud

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gorfle]

15. Right-wing isolationism

Let's stop with the off-topic, right-wing, isolationist talking points in the gun forum, eh?

It's hard enough to convey our concerns intelligently without this crap.

[MicaelS]

17. gorle, I'm an old fashioned Populist, not a Progressive

The kind that cares about Americans, and blue-collar American jobs, BEFORE the jobs of people of other countries. The kind of Populist the Democratic Party used to have lots of before so many of them sold out their ideals and souls to things like NAFTA. :puke: Sad to think you believe that is "right-wing-isolationism." :banghead:

I see many people on DU that don't like NAFTA, are they all "right-wing-isolationists"?. And if you don't like the idea of Americans, and their money, staying out of Canada, too damn bad. I stand by everything I sad. I read every post on that link up to page 27. Seems like many Canadians object to Americans traveling though Canada country LAWFULLY on the way to Alaska. So I say we should stay the hell out, completely. Period.

Got it now? :mad: :nopity:

[gorfle]

18. Love the tag line. n/t.

[iverglas]

19. thanks for that!

I'd completely missed the reader comments -- great stuff! Just gotta love the huge overwhelming majority of my fellow Canuckistanians. Obviously the gunsucking Albertans haven't discovered the story yet ... it's probably being posted on teapot as we speak, and the astrograssroots will emerge from their caves ...

[iverglas]

20. I guess I have to keep reading

I like Dave here:

Gad! Will you pro-gun types give it up? I sold my one and only firearm (a Cooey .22) when my parents sold the farm and I became a city boy. Like 99.99% of the population of Toronto I have never "been in the wrong place at the wrong time". Now take the time to compare gun crime in Toronto to, say, Detroit. Heck of a difference, eh? Detroit is much smaller.

As for letting our cowboy neighbours to the south in with their beloved .50 cal sniper rifles, I feel a little uncomfortable over this. If they are on their way to Alaska they can ruddy well airfreight the weapons ahead of them via UPS or Fedex. There is no place in my country for anyone, tourist or not, to be carrying a Tek 9mm or a shotgun with less than an 18 inch barrel.

It brings to mind a Texan I met in a bar one night. He was complaining bitterly that he was not allowed to bring all his "truck guns" across the border. He had 15 weapons on board ... just to protect his truck. I asked what was seized and he answered that his "can gun" was given up to Canadian authorities to be picked up on the way back. He told me this weapon was a Remmington 12ga "Enforcer" cut down to a 12 inch barrel. Somewhat shocked I asked if he just used it to blow tin cans off of fence posts. The answer was a bit of a surprise ... "No," he said, "It's for Africans or Mexicans".

'Nuff said.

Somebody had better find that truckdriver and bash him one for stereotyping southerners.

[WWFZD]

27. Sounds like ole Dave's been hitting the moose sauce again

"There is no place in my country for anyone, tourist or not, to be carrying a Tek 9mm or a shotgun with less than an 18 inch barrel."

Maybe one stoned Texan tried to lug his Tec(k) 9 into utopia at some time in the last 20 years but nobody, not even the deranged Texan, is toting their sawed off shotguns into your country, Dave.

"I asked what was seized and he answered that his "can gun" was given up to Canadian authorities to be picked up on the way back. He told me this weapon was a Remmington 12ga "Enforcer" cut down to a 12 inch barrel. "

Pretty damn neighborly of the "Canadian authorities" to hold for safekeeping an implement that would get this fictitious, racist Texan a lot of real hard time down here so it could "be picked up on the way back". I don't do illegal drugs but it's nice to know that if I ever decide to chase the dragon those friendly Canadians would hold my kit for me while I visited up north.
Good day. eh? Sir, you might be needing this when you get back home. Sure do ocifer, I couldn't score in your fine country. There's no place like home, right, Dave?

[iverglas]

31. got google?

Maybe one stoned Texan tried to lug his Tec(k) 9 into utopia at some time in the last 20 years but nobody, not even the deranged Texan, is toting their sawed off shotguns into your country, Dave.

Nice try.


http://circ.jmellon.com/docs/view.asp?id=1220

- The Highwater Quebec Port of Entry had a seizure of a sawed-off 12-gauge shotgun, two handguns, six large.capacity magazines, 75 rounds of ammunition and two bulletproof vests. The two male passengers in the Ford Explorer, both U.S. military students, claimed they were on a Canadian pleasure trip

Just kinky guys, I guess.


Pretty damn neighborly of the "Canadian authorities" to hold for safekeeping an implement that would get this fictitious, racist Texan a lot of real hard time down here so it could "be picked up on the way back". I don't do illegal drugs but it's nice to know that if I ever decide to chase the dragon those friendly Canadians would hold my kit for me while I visited up north.

You seem to be having some difficulty with the concept here.

No one is allowed to bring a firearm into Canada without the appropriate licence. It doesn't matter what kind of firearm it is.

If the individual has DECLARED a firearm or firearms -- i.e. not tried to smuggle them in by not declaring them or by lying when asked -- no offence has been committed. There would be no grounds for forfeiture.

The property is his, the legality or illegality of his possession of it in the US is not the Canadian Border Service Agency's concern. If he wants to pick it up and take it back with him, it's your border/police services' business, not ours. What are we, the cops of the world now?


Anything else not quite clear to you?

[WWFZD]

37. No difficulty with the concept here.

I didn’t think it was necessary since I never indicated otherwise but, for clarity, it’s completely understood that in order to transport any declared firearms into Canada one must possess the necessary Canadian permits. Also understood that undeclared firearms, drugs or livestock are smuggled.

“The Highwater Quebec Port of Entry had a seizure of a sawed-off 12-gauge shotgun”
Good for them. Canada has every right to prohibit anything coming into or out of their country. Was it a 22 inch barrel sawed down to 18 inches or was it Dave’s Texas fantasy of a highly illegal “Remmington 12ga "Enforcer" cut down to a 12 inch barrel”? Hard to tell with the info provided by the Archiver.

Now there is one matter that is not quite clear to me. Assuming that a 12 inch barrel shotgun is as illegal in Canada as it is in the US, what other kinds of items could be declared at the border and simply held by the Canadian authorities? If one were to declare that he or she had say, 1.1M counterfeit American dollars in ones possession, not novelty junk but excellent forgeries, would the Canadian authorities simply hold those fake dollars for the US visitor to be returned to the visitor when they returned to the US?
If that’s true then a hearty mea culpa to you fine lady, and to Dave, for my naiveté. I guess I foolishly expected a little more cooperation at the border. Not an arrest and prosecution in Canada but the confiscation and temporary safe storage of the illegal items and detention of the offender by the Canadian authorities until the US authorities could pick up him/her.

[WWFZD]

28. Interesting. Apparently insanity runs rampant

on both sides of the border.

"I remember when I was living in the Yukon that an American in transit to Alaska shot and killed a garage attendant. He didn't like the way the attendant was treating him, so took out his gun and killed him.

At about the same time, I saw a couple of Americans travelling through BC toward Alaska on the Stewart-Cassiar highway. It was summer time (ie not hunting season). They had their arsenal of guns of about 15 or 20 guns laid out against a tree."

Sure they did Mr./Ms. "DifficultCurmudgeon". It's a miracle you've survived this long, with so many Americans about.



PS: This is way more entertaining than reading comments on US "news" reports/stories:)

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[iverglas]

29. "ignorant"

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ignorant

ig·no·rant
adj.
1. Lacking education or knowledge.
2. Showing or arising from a lack of education or knowledge: an ignorant mistake.
3. Unaware or uninformed.



It's really no shame to be ignorant, so I'm just not understanding why anyone would object to it being pointed out that someone is LACKING KNOWLEDGE and UNINFORMED.

The only person who could say:

bring all those American automobile manufacturing jobs back from Canada AND Mexico.

is a person who is LACKING KNOWLEDGE and UNINFORMED.

That is because NO "American automobile manufacturing jobs" have gone to Canada. What automobile manufacturing jobs there are left in Canada are CANADIAN automobile manufacturing jobs, ta very much.

Canadian auto industry jobs are shifting to Mexico. US auto industry jobs are NOT shifting to Canada.

And the US really just doesn't have dibs on all the auto industry jobs in North America. (Remember the Auto Pact at all?) We buy and drive cars here, and we get to make some of them here too.

[CHIMO]

33. You Have My

Vote on NAFTA.

And while you are at it, if you don't want the auto pact then you can also keep those foreign made cars out of the country.

We may have some more items that we can agree to work on. It takes two to tango as they say.

[iverglas]

34. Dave, Dave, Dave

And while you are at it, if you don't want the auto pact then you can also keep those foreign made cars out of the country.

You actually have no clue what the Auto Pact was, do you?

[CHIMO]

35. Dave Who

Perhaps not.

Please do explain.

Next thing you are going to tell me is that the SOCA (Status of Corporations Agreement) doesn't exist!

[iverglas]

36. well I just have no clue!

For some reason, I thought my suitor Fire Medic Dave was the author of that post. All my apologies!

If you read your post from that perspective -- him being in the States and all -- you can kinda see how my reply made sense. ;)

Just looked like a little more USAmerican jingoism dribbling out ...

You should announce yourself more clearly when you visit! And I should pay much closer attention.

[CHIMO]

38. OK

Had me going there for awhile.
Guess it's out of sight out of mind.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

9. 662 guns in 2007.

How many Americans cross the Canadian border every year? What is the penalty for intentionally not declaring a handgun? How many people were prosecuted for these violations? I hope this story is not a representative sample of Canadian journalism.

David

[iverglas]

14. you wish

If you had access to anything like the CBC for your own news, you might actually know some things.

Any Canadian reading the story knows that lots and lots of US residents cross into Canada every year. I can't imagine why any of us would think an exact figure was of any relevance to this story.

We're not wondering what percentage of US tourists are getting caught smuggling firearms, actually. We imagine it's quite low. We don't really care. Perhaps you thought the percentage of US tourists getting caught with firearms was important for some reason. Feel free to go figure it out, if so.

I recently posted a report of a tractor-trailer driver getting caught with a handgun in his cab after denying he had any firearms. He was sentenced to a year in prison.

I imagine that border officers not infrequently exercise discretion in the case of morons to whom it has never occurred that they should leave their guns at home when they come visiting the neighbours, and don't lay charges. Who needs a bunch of yanks littering up the jails when we can just turn them around and send them home?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

21. I wish what?

Lots and lots.

Here's why it's relevant it puts in perspective the size of the problem. If 1000 people cross the border and 662 guns are seized then it's a problem that Canada would seem to be controlling very well. If 20,000,000 cross the border and 662 guns are seized then either it's a very small problem or Canada is doing a horrible job at the border. Do you get it now?

You posted a story about one man being sentenced to one year. Ok so now I know that 1 person out of 662 was prosecuted and sentenced. What about the other 661?

You wrote,"We're not wondering what percentage of US tourists are getting caught smuggling firearms, actually. We imagine it's quite low. We don't really care."

I'll remember you don't really care about guns being smuggled into your country the next time you start bitching about it.

David

[iverglas]

22. read whatcha write, Davy

You: I hope this story is not a representative sample of Canadian journalism.

Me: You wish.

Followed by my remark pointing out that Canadian journalism is such as you can only dream about. The fact that you know nothing about it says things itself.


You posted a story about one man being sentenced to one year. Ok so now I know that 1 person out of 662 was prosecuted and sentenced. What about the other 661?

I dunno, Davy. I'm assuming that the vast bulk of them were ethnocentric ignorant morons without ill intent, who were dealt with possibly by confiscating their illegal cargo, and either sent home or sent on their way. Ignorance of the law is no excuse, but it also isn't equivalent to intent to traffic, for example. Myself, I wouldn't actually be screeching for the blood of every obnoxious old Republican-voting NRA ballcap-wearing RV-driving couple of retirees who were too stupid to leave their handguns at home before heading north to annoy the natives.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

24. It seems they don't teach reading comprehension or logic in law school in Canada.

Your response and remarks make absolutely no sense in the context of my statement.

David

[AtheistCrusader]

25. I make no apologies for my fellow citizens

that enter your country and disobey your laws. They are idiots. Confiscate the weapon and send them back, or lock them up. Up to you. I won't shed a tear.

People ought to respect your national sovereignty when guests of your country. We have ways of shipping guns ahead to Alaska if it's a 'just passing through' kind of thing.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

26. Absolutely.

I concur 100%.

David