Gun Control: White Man's Law

[RoeBear]

"Chances are that you've never heard of General Laney. He hasn't had a brilliant military career, at least as far as I know. In fact, I'm not certain that he's even served in the military. General, you see, isn't Laney's rank but his first name. General Laney does, however, have a claim to fame, unrecognized though it may be.

Detroit resident General Laney is the founder and prime mover behind a little publicized organization known as the National Black Sportsman's Association, often referred to as "the black gun lobby." Laney pulls no punches when asked his opinion of gun control: "Gun control is really race control. People who embrace gun control are really racists in nature. All gun laws have been enacted to control certain classes of people, mainly black people, but the same laws used to control blacks are being used to disarm white people as well."


(I made the correction were the link shows 'transfer interrupted'.)
I've shopped at Mr Laney's store and have found him to be an interesting and honest person.

edited to add:
Moderators please let this story float around here for awhile before you kick it to the gun dungeon

[eauclaireliberal]

1. RE: "Gun Control: White Man's Law"

Intersting that you should bring this up; I just finished reading a link related to this subject...check it out:

The Racist Roots of Gun Control

[RoeBear]

2. I've read it.

It has interesting points too.

[roughsatori]

3. Very provocative with a thrust that fits in with the history

of US slavery, property-ownership, and voting rights. You should post this in General Discussion it will get more hits--but today is slow there to. But that title will work in General Discussion.

[acerbic]

4. Yup, that's exactly why neo-nazi groups rant against gun control.

:crazy: :silly: :dunce:

[MrBenchley]

16. The racist gun rights movement

From all the pious bleatings by the RKBA crowd, you would think that gun control is racist and that the most virulent racists in America support gun control, right?

Well let’s look at the record. Let’s start with Trent Lott.
Trent Lott led a campus riot to keep blacks out of the U of Miss in the 1960s. In this century, he announced that we wouldn’t have "all these problems" if we still had Jim Crow. If gun control is racist, you’d expect helmet-hair to be four-square for it…but he isn’t. In fact, he’s spent his career pushing the phony "gun rights" issue.

How about John AshKKKroft? Got his career started fighting integration in Kansas City…he’s been noticeably timid in protecting the rights of minorities, and notably gung-ho trampling the Constitution to punish them. Again, he’s not only pro-gun rights; he’s one of the shrillest and most strident proponents of the dishonest "individual rights" revisionist interpretation of the Second Amendment. He’s so pro-gun rights that he refused to let the FBI check to see if terrorists bought guns after 9/11.

Jesse Helms? The old turd used to scream that the UN was trying to ban gun ownership in the US to inflame his inbred supporters. Bob "C of CC" Barr? He’s on the board of the National Rifle Association.

And which side of the debate threw out an ignorant slur in Congress this year about all black people being drug addicts? The gun rights crowd, which at the time was trying to engineer immunity from liability for the corrupt gun industry.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A1249-2003Apr9¬Found=true

What about that National Rifle Association? What’s their record on bigotry and tolerance? Well, it’s not so hot…

Outgoing president Charlton "Moses" Heston made big capital of the fact that he marched ONCE with Martin Luther King, Jr. But that didn’t stop him from making racial slurs in front of the far right wing Free Congress Foundation, nor did it stop him from calling for a lynch mob in Michigan in 2000.
But what about the other board members? Well, board member Ted Nugent spewed racial slurs during a radio interview in Denver earlier this year. What did the NRA do about this disgrace? Nothing.
Board member Jeff Cooper calls blacks orang-outangs in public. Several board members have ties groups like English First. Then there’s the publisher of Soldier of Fortune…who can forget all the stirring calls for brotherhood and racial tolerance in SOF magazine (snicker)?

But the NRA is just one group. What about other gun rights groups?
Well, about the next largest is Gun Owners of America…which is pretty much a goober named Larry Pratt. Larry is so racist that even Pat Buchanan had to back away from him in public.
How about racist groups like Aryan Nations or the KKK? Nope, again, you’re talking about big gun rights supporters. Railing about gun control makes up a large part of their message.
Here’s the Texas KKK:
"The so-called gun control bill enacted by the government is nothing but anti-self defense laws designed to disarm law abiding citizens. The right to own guns as guaranteed by the 2nd amendment to the United States Constitution must be protected. Gun ownership is NOT a privilege, it’s a CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED RIGHT!!! The Texas Knights work to completely restore the right of all law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms."

http://www.texaskkk.com/platform.htm

[Violet_Crumble]

5. This is the same crap anti-choicers use...

Yeah, drag someone out, not because of what they're saying, but because they're black. Get them to condemn abortion or gun control, and then wrap yrself in the mantle of self-righteousness. It doesn't matter what religion, nationality or ethnic group someone is. What matters is if they're a moron or not when they're talking about things. We've got gun control here, and while it might break the hearts of fanatics in the US gun lobby who believe any lunatic should be able to wander into a store and purchase a gun and spend less time doing it than waiting to get their order filled at McDonalds, there haven't been any more of the massacres that were starting to happen with monotonous regularity before the gun control laws were introduced...

What do you define as gun control? Do you believe that everyone should be able to go and buy a gun as easily as they can buy their groceries? Do you oppose background checks on potential purchasers of guns?

Violet...

[Name removed]

6. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[realFedUp]

7. Larry

Welcome to DU, but I don't think Violet was being racist in
her remarks about the General. I think the General's comments
about people who advocate gun control being racists is
racist in itself.

[Larry Gude]

8. Thanks for the welcome...

...maybe not racist, as far as what violet really means. But, That's how I read it, an out of hand dismisal based on color politics.

Now, before we do a 'racist to mention race being racist because it mentions race' circular debate let me state a few things.

I'm a white boy. English, French, German, Scot and who knows what else, to be specific.

I firmly believe in the right to keep and bear arms.

I believe in firmly punishing those who use weapons criminally.

I firmly believe that it is no coincidence that areas with the highest violent crime rates also have a certain oh, color, shall we say, in terms of population. I believe the reasons are racist and malicious and old.

I firmly believe it is an abomination to resrict law abiding citizens from defending themselves and their property. The cops, not even in the wildest Patrtiot Act nightmares, can't get there until AFTER you've been robbed, raped or murdered. Crooks are funny that way in terms of timing.

All I ask is for anyone who thinks otherwise to respond to what folks like the General and blackmanwithagun, especially as to his thoughts about black women and history, are saying and dispense with the reading of minds and motives. It doesn't change the facts OR their thoughts and is damn offensive.

I've never understood why democrats are so hostile to the 2nd amendment without even having sound reasoning or comment EXCEPT for knee jerk motive reactions (IMO) like violets. Can you imagine the GOP with no NRA as lock step supporters? The largest identifiable single demographic in the US (did Begala say this?) is people who consider themselves somewhat fiscally conservative and rather socailly liberal (rights to choose, including firearm onwership). This group is also no more comfortable with Islamic religious kooks than they are with Christian ones. I call it 'progressive conservative'. To me 'Oxymoron' is a synonym for 'politics'.

This is another reason Dean is attractive; he is not an ideological purist that 25% on both sides seem to demand.

Thats said, what does the right to keep and bear cost democracy or Democrats besides the zealots hissy fits about 'nuts' who maybe ought be in jail if they are so damn dangerous???

Whatcha think?

I have to add that it is modern liberal democrats who have the gun paranoia. In the 60's and 70's the last thing on earth liberals wanted was for the authorities to be the only ones with guns. Now, JUST the police?

Help me understand that one.

[DoNotRefill]

14. Have you seen Bowling for Columbine?

Moore makes some interesting points about the racist origins of gun control. There is no doubt that gun control laws in the US prior to the 1960's were exclusively racist in nature. Is it racist now? Well, it generally is race-neutral in language (since if it weren't, it'd be facially unconstitutional), with the gun control people saying things like "we want to keep guns out of the 'wrong hands'". Unfortunately, those "wrong hands" seem to be predominantly people of color, or the poor. I'll let you draw your own conclusions.

[DoNotRefill]

15. Hey Realfedup:

If you want to read something well-documented that's written about the racist origins of gun control and how gun control has historically been used to keep minorities "in their place", read this law review article:

http://www.guncite.com/journals/cd-recon.html

The author is a self-professed Liberal, with pretty good Liberal credentials. In other words, it's not a NRA or VPC-sponsored hit-piece, it's from a respected legal journal.

Here's the last paragraph of his conclusion:

"The history of blacks, firearms regulations, and the right to bear arms should cause us to ask new questions regarding the Second Amendment. These questions will pose problems both for advocates of stricter gun controls and for those who argue against them. Much of the contemporary crime that concerns Americans is in poor black neighborhoods<290> and a case can be made that greater firearms restrictions might alleviate this tragedy. But another, perhaps stronger case can be made that a society with a dismal record of protecting a people has a dubious claim on the right to disarm them. Perhaps a re-examination of this history can lead us to a modern realization of what the framers of the Second Amendment understood: that it is unwise to place the means of protection totally in the hands of the state, and that self-defense is also a civil right."

[MrBenchley]

25. What a frigging pantload

From this sort of pious bleating by the RKBA crowd, you would think that gun control is racist and that the most virulent racists in America support gun control, right?

Well let’s look at the record. Let’s start with Trent Lott.
Trent Lott led a campus riot to keep blacks out of the U of Miss in the 1960s. In this century, he announced that we wouldn’t have "all these problems" if we still had Jim Crow. If gun control is racist, you’d expect helmet-hair to be four-square for it…but he isn’t. In fact, he’s spent his career pushing the phony "gun rights" issue.

How about John AshKKKroft? Got his career started fighting integration in Kansas City…he’s been noticeably timid in protecting the rights of minorities, and notably gung-ho trampling the Constitution to punish them. Again, he’s not only pro-gun rights; he’s one of the shrillest and most strident proponents of the dishonest "individual rights" revisionist interpretation of the Second Amendment. He’s so pro-gun rights that he refused to let the FBI check to see if terrorists bought guns after 9/11.

Jesse Helms? The old turd used to scream that the UN was trying to ban gun ownership in the US to inflame his inbred supporters. Bob "C of CC" Barr? He’s on the board of the National Rifle Association.

And which side of the debate threw out an ignorant slur in Congress this year about all black people being drug addicts? The gun rights crowd, which at the time was trying to engineer immunity from liability for the corrupt gun industry.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A1249-2003Apr9¬Found=true

What about that National Rifle Association? What’s their record on bigotry and tolerance? Well, it’s not so hot…

Outgoing president Charlton "Moses" Heston made big capital of the fact that he marched ONCE with Martin Luther King, Jr. But that didn’t stop him from making racial slurs in front of the far right wing Free Congress Foundation, nor did it stop him from calling for a lynch mob in Michigan in 2000.

But what about the other board members? Well, board member Ted Nugent spewed racial slurs during a radio interview in Denver earlier this year. What did the NRA do about this disgrace? Nothing.

Board member Jeff Cooper calls blacks orang-outangs in public. Several board members have ties groups like English First. Then there’s the publisher of Soldier of Fortune…who can forget all the stirring calls for brotherhood and racial tolerance in SOF magazine (snicker)?

But the NRA is just one group. What about other gun rights groups?

Well, about the next largest is Gun Owners of America…which is pretty much a goober named Larry Pratt. Larry is so racist that even Pat Buchanan had to back away from him in public.

[DoNotRefill]

31. How interesting that you didn't even try to refute the article...

Would you care to point out inaccuracies in Cottrol's article?

[MrBenchley]

32. No, refill, I really don't give a crap

about this new sideshow...it's enough for me to show how racist the gun rights crowd is.

[iverglas]

9. whoa

... well, I had a post all composed, and I went wandering off to do some work, and I crashed my netscape ...

What the moderator, who posted in the interim, has failed to point out is what you actually did in this post. You said:

"And, to the issue: A law abiding person who chooses to keep and bear a firearm is a threat to you how??? Oh, if he or she is black."

I initially misread that paragraph. I thought you had said "OR, if he or she is black". That is, I thought you were saying, rather ineptly: "A law abiding person who chooses to keep and bear a firearm is a threat to you, or only if he or she is black?"

That was bad enough. It was a smear, by suggesting that someone thought something racist that you had not the slightest evidence to suppose that she thought. That question, if you had asked it, was not connected in any way to, or based on, ANYTHING that Violet had said.

But that wasn't even what you actually said. What you did was to ask a question AND THEN ANSWER IT on Violet's behalf.

You asked how a law-abiding person who chooses to keep and bear a firearm was a threat to Violet, and then YOU ANSWERED FOR HER by saying that said person is a threat to her "if he or she is black".

That is vile and intolerable. You have claimed that Violet perceives a firearms owner as a threat based on the person's race. You have not the slightest reason for making this claim. Nothing in Violet's post supports your claim. You have made it up out of whole cloth, a slur for which you have no foundation whatsoever.

I feel all icky just reading your post.

Now, as to your characterization of whether Violet perceives that law-abiding firearms owner, regardless of race, as a threat: you define this as "the issue".

Perhaps in your mind. The issue that Violet was actually addressing was what is popularly known as playing the race card.

That is: whether one be a member of a vulnerable/disadvantaged group or not, using the discrimination suffered by that group to counter arguments against one's own position instead of making relevant argument of one's own. Exploiting the suffering of others in the service of one's own ends and interests. A despicable practice.

In order to determine whether someone is playing the race card or identifying a genuine problem, I look at three things:

- where the alleged problem ranks in the hierarchy of problems suffered by the group in question -- both in the opinion of members of that group, and by whatever objective measurement might be possible. I might wonder how the alleged problem compared to, for instance, a huge wage gap, unequal access to educational opportunities, things like that;

- what the person complaining of the alleged problem was doing about problems that might reasonably be regarded as more serious than the alleged problem, as an indication of the sincerity of the persons' concern about the disadvantage the group suffers;

- whether the alleged problem can even accurately be regarded as an instance of discrimination.

To meet the last test, much more than a bald assertion of discrimination must be provided.

Indeed, discrimination can exist where the effects of a measure are discriminatory; there need not be a stated intent to discriminate. But there has to be some evidence and argument to support the assertion that the effect is to discriminate on the basis alleged, and that it is not just what happens every minute of every day when someone without the money to acquire something s/he wants is unable to acquire it for lack of money. Women and people of colour are poorer, on average, than men and whites; does this mean that BMW discriminates against women and people of colour when it sets prices for its cars? My opinion is irrelevant; the answer is "no".

BMW has perfectly good and accepted reasons for pricing its cars out of reach of disproportionate numbers of women and people of colour.

Are there perfectly good reasons for the policies that determine firearm and firearm permit prices, that the differential impact of that pricing will not cancel out? I haven't really heard anyone succeed in demonstrating that there are not.



And now my advice to you, a newbie on the face of you, is to be a damned sight more careful about the words you put in other people's mouths, and pay quite a bit more attention to things people actually say if you're going to take it upon yourself to respond to them.

.

[Jackie97]

10. Take guns away from blacks and whites.....

That idea is completely unlike what they did during Jim Crow laws. During the time of Jim Crow (or at least some time of it), Blacks couldn't have weapons, while whites could. If everybody of every race and class were *equally* not allowed to have guns, then there would be nothing racist about it.

[RoeBear]

11. Only true if you...

...ignore how it's done today.
Largest cities have the most strident anti-gun regulations. Guess who live in those towns?

Junk gun (inexpensive gun) regulations? It tries to deny gun ownership to those with the least amount of money, guess who that is?

The few remaining shall issue CCW states, guess who's ass you ahve to kiss to get a permit? The Man's. Who does get the permits in NY or CA? Rich white people.

Nope they don't specifically say 'Blacks can't have guns' they're slightly more clever these days.

[Jackie97]

12. Like I said.....

Take the guns away from EVERYBODY (Black, white, Latino, Chinese, etc), and no group of people will be discriminated against.

Because guns in general aren't illegal, individual states and cities have to make their own regulations. Larger cities (with more blacks in them) can get more done about the gun problem than a small town with a bunch of mostly white people who support the mostly White NRA.

[DoNotRefill]

13. That's like saying...

keep everybody from voting, and no group of people will be discriminated against.

Depriving everybody of their civil rights is no solution....

[Jackie97]

18. Is owning a gun a civil right?

[MrBenchley]

19. Only to those

who swallow John AshKKKreoft's revisionist LIE about the Second Amendment.

[RoeBear]

20. As a matter of fact...

..yes it is.

[DoNotRefill]

23. It depends...

Is being free from unreasonable searches and seizures a civil right? Is the freedom of speech a civil right? If so, then yes, it's a civil right.

I have to laugh when people say the right to keep and bear arms is a privilege...If it were, wouldn't it be the "privilege to keep and bear arms" instead of the "right to keep and bear arms"? Kind of a "no-brainer"....

[Wcross]

21. Cops too?

Should we take away guns from EVERYBODY or just everybody? There will be no need for cops to go armed if we take away everybodies guns right?

[MrBenchley]

17. Still floating this hooey, roe?

Down in the gun dungeon you wrere trying to pretend that Micchigan was a Jim Crow state...and Mississippi, Louisiana, North Carolina and South Carolina weren't.

[Wcross]

22. Why don't you ask some people MrBenchley

Why don't you ask some people of color what they think about gun control? I think you will be suprised, I wasn't when I asked some co-workers and friends.

[MrBenchley]

24. Sure thing cross...

I'll ask if they agree with these folks...

"The so-called gun control bill enacted by the government is nothing but anti-self defense laws designed to disarm law abiding citizens. The right to own guns as guaranteed by the 2nd amendment to the United States Constitution must be protected. Gun ownership is NOT a privilege, it’s a CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED RIGHT!!! The Texas Knights work to completely restore the right of all law-abiding citizens to keep and bear arms."

http://www.texaskkk.com/platform.htm

[Wcross]

26. So I should jump off the bridge to spite them?

What does the KKK's support of the second ammendment have to do with the arguement? Does that mean that in order to be considered non-racist, you must oppose it? Well that is one way to look at things I suppose.
I am sure minorities would feel MUCH safer being unable to defend themselves from the Klan. Do you unerstand that you are advocating disarming people- do you think that the Klan will turn in their firearms if there was a total ban? Down the street from me is an old country African American church, the pastor lives there as well. As you know I live in the sticks in Tennessee, the pastor of the church is as remote as I am- I am his nearest neighbor at about 1/2-3/4 miles away. Are you going to tell him he shouldn't have firearms? He has them for the very same reasons I have them. I have shot with him at his range, he is a good shot and a good democrat.


Sorry, you don't fool me my friend. Try telling us WHY more gun laws are needed, not that we are racist,NRA,repuke pimps.

[MrBenchley]

27. Who are you trying to kid, cross?

"So what if the KKK supports the second ammendment?"
But they don't....what they supporrt is the bogus gun rrights horseshit that pretends onnly half of the second amendment exists.

"I have seen this same old post from you before."
And I've seen you reepeatedly sticking up for Larry Pratt...a guy so racist that even Pat Buchanan had to flee his company.

"Do you unerstand that you are advocating disarming people"
<sarcasm>Yeah, THAT will be the result of requiring back ground checks or keeping assault weapons off the street. And who can forget how cars were confiscated when drivers were licensed and motor vehicles were registered.</sarcasm>

"I support the right to keep and bear arms for ALL citizens. "
Funny, so does the KKK....

[Wcross]

28. Hey MrBenchley

Dude, clean your keyboard! your r's and n's are sticking!

Love,
Cross

[Wcross]

29. Have I stuck up for him after your revelation?

"And I've seen you reepeatedly sticking up for Larry Pratt...a guy so racist that even Pat Buchanan had to flee his company."

He isn't the reason I support the second ammendment- I will denounce his racisim right now- but is that reason to give up my beliefs in the 2nd ammendment? Hardly.

Oh heres a news flash for you--

http://www.blackpanther.org/
We believe that the racist and fascist government of the United States uses its domestic enforcement agencies to carry out its program of oppression against black people, other people of color and poor people inside the united States. We believe it is our right, therefore, to defend ourselves against such armed forces and that all Black and oppressed people should be armed for self defense of our homes and communities against these fascist police forces.

What a suprise it will be for the Panthers to see they are allied with the Klan.

[MrBenchley]

30. Yes, you have....

Too too funny cross...now that Larry Pratt has gotten exposed as the scum he is, you're trying to pass yourself off as a Black Panther?

[Name removed]

33. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Wcross]

34. Last message deleted? I will try again.

The mere fact that the Klan supports the second ammendment is a good reason to oppose it?

If you read slowly, you will see I never claimed to be a member of the Black panthers. I merely pointed out that they too supported the 2nd. Poof- there goes your theory of a klan/rkba link.

Other groups support the right to keep and bear arms,

The pink pistols;
http://www.pinkpistols.org/index2.html

A womans org.
http://www.sas-aim.org/

Jewish people;
http://www.jpfo.org/

So if someone supports the second ammendment, they are also supportive of the Klan? I see this attempt of yours for what it is- a cheap attempt to demonize gun rights advocates. I don't buy it, and if you take a step back, you will see how silly it sounds.

[MrBenchley]

35. Gee, cross...

"The mere fact that the Klan supports the second ammendment is a good reason to oppose it?"
Gee, that's a pretty mere damn fact....and it isn't just the Klan whose peddling this idiot revisionist lie about what the second amendment means.

Pick ANY GROUP that stands for hate and racism in this country and you'll find them ALL peddling this gun rights horseshit.

"I see this attempt of yours for what it is- a cheap attempt to demonize gun rights advocates."
No attempt is needed, cross...the gun rights crowd is pretty much the scum of the earth...

John AshKKKroft
Trent Lott
Tom DeLay
Grover Norquist
Bob Barr
Ted NNugent
Jeff Cooper
Larry Pratt
Bo Gritz
John Trochman
Randy Weaver
David Koresh
Tim McVeigh

"We stand against gun control laws, including the civil process of holding firearm makers liable for the act of a criminal. "

http://hometown.aol.com/cofccsaxon/myhomepage/

"Bushmaster Requests Your Help in Preventing Junk Lawsuits Against the Firearms Industry "

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=64424

"During the 1990s, Montanans became well aware of Stanko for his role as a founding reverend in the racist Church of the Creator, for his ties to the radical Freemen, and for his outspoken belief that it is patriotic to advocate hatred toward the federal government and civil servants who enforce the laws of the land.
"There is a tendency among people that, when they find out a person is openly and overtly racist, to think the person is dumb, but Rudy is smart," Toole says. "He knows how to organize people by uniting them around controversies of the moment, whether that is making a case for taking the law into one's own hands and shooting grizzlies, beating up gay people, picketing abortion clinics, or defending gun rights in light of controversy created by the Maryland sniper case." "

http://www.rickross.com/reference/hate_groups/hategroups346.html

"Therefore, if the so-called Jews are not descended from Abraham, as any historian, geneticist, or even any Rabbi will freely admit, then they are not God’s chosen people. If they are not, then fundamentalist Christians should no longer put up with Jewish support for homosexuality, gun control, open immigration, and forced racial integration. "

http://www.whiterevolution.com/july092003text.shtml

"I was astounded to read these courageous remarks by Charlton Heston.  I am thankful to hear a man with such high esteem say essentially the same things for which I have been reviled by the liberal media. His words should be reproduced and put into the hands of every American."

http://www.duke.org/writings/heston.html

"by Dr. William L. Pierce, Chairman, the National Alliance
(a speech given by Dr. Pierce on the nationwide radio program, AMERICAN DISSIDENT VOICES, January 29th, 1994)
THERE IS HARDLY AN ISSUE which more sharply divides White Americans than "gun control." There is hardly a more significant difference than that which exists between the people who want gun control and those who don't. For there is a great temperamental and ideological divide between those who believe in self-defense and those who believe in surrendering and begging for mercy. "

http://www.natvan.com/american-dissident-voices/adv012994.html

[Wcross]

36. Gee MrBenchley,

Poof- your arguement is gone. While racist groups may support the second ammendment, it doesn't make one racist if they support the second ammendment.
Why do you still insist that gun owners are racist? Why do you insist that if someone understands the second ammendment for what it really is, they are racist? Can't you win the debate by sticking to the issue of gun control? Why bring race into the debate?
Like I said, a cheap attempt to demonize gun owners.

[MrBenchley]

37. Hand us ANOTHER big laugh...

"Why do you still insist that gun owners are racist?"
What was the name of this thread again?

"Why do you insist that if someone understands the second ammendment for what it really is, they are racist?"
Gee, cross...the second amendment covers well regulated state militias. The ones PRETENDING it means loonies have some right to assault weapons ARE mostly racist asswipes like Trent Lott, Tom DeLay, John AshKKKroft, Larry Pratt, Ted Nugent, John Trochman, William Pierce, etc., etc., etc.....


"Can't you win the debate by sticking to the issue of gun control? Why bring race into the debate? "
What was the name of this thread again?

[Wcross]

38. Did I start the thread?

"Can't you win the debate by sticking to the issue of gun control? Why bring race into the debate? "
What was the name of this thread again?


Uh, you have been posting that Klan garbage down in the dungeon for a couple of weeks-


"A well-regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State,
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."

That damn comma! I bet you wish it wasn't there don't you? It says nothing about the right of the states to keep and bear arms. It says the right of the people. It says nothing about regulating firearms, just regulating the militia. It is an individual right regardless of race,creed,color or religion. Poof- your arguement is again exposed for what it is.

Bye Bye MrBenchley.

I will see you down in the dungeon- I don't think we should continue debating in this particular forum.

[MrBenchley]

39. You jumped in to pretend it was a valid one

"That damn comma! I bet you wish it wasn't there don't you?"
No, cross...if it wasn' t there it would be a run-on, ungrammatical sentence...but the Founding Fathers weren't idiots. If you thgink there's a significance to the comma beyond its grammatical necessity, I wish you'd explain and give us all a BIG laugh..

"It says nothing about the right of the states to keep and bear arms."
Actually, it says that's the REASON we have the well-regulated milita, cross. Because we have the right to defend our state collectively.

"Poof- your arguement is again exposed for what it is."
Intelligent, and opposed by the sort of person who tries to pretend racists aren't racist..

[Wcross]

42. You pretend it is the opposite benchley.

Your theory that belief in the rkba is inherently racist has been proven bogus by my example of other groups that believe in rkba and are as far opposite from the klan as you could possibly get. Your pitiful attempt to paint ALL gun owners as klansmen is laughable.

"Because we have the right to defend our state collectively."
So in the fourth ammendment and the tenth ammendment "people" means individuals while in the second people refers to collective rights?
Thats really creative but false. You know better than to attempt to lie about that....Furthermore most state constitutions also affirm the right of individuals to keep and bear arms. A final note, the right to defends one's life can not be granted or restricted by a government, it is a natural right.

"Poof- your arguement is again exposed for what it is."
Intelligent, and opposed by the sort of person who tries to pretend racists aren't racist.."
No, I agree that the Klan is racist. You are trying to pretend that all gun owners are racist- which is quite a leap.

I agree with you- gun control laws seem to discriminate against inner city people and the poor. Many large cities have strict gun control laws. Removing someones right to self defense based on where they live could be looked upon as discrimination. We all know the origins of gun control were racist in nature. I am not argueing that current attempts at gun control are racist in nature, they just seem that way.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[MrBenchley]

47. It IS the oppoosite, cross

Find a racist, high or low, and odds are good they'll be peddling this gun rights rubbish.

"I agree with you- gun control laws seem to discriminate against inner city people and the poor. "
And you know damn well I NEVVER said any such thing.

[Jackie97]

40. Excuse me?

Wasn't this thread started by suggesting that being anti-gun was racist because blacks at one time were excluded from owning guns?

[MrBenchley]

41. It's the RKBA crowd's "logic"

By the way, just about every racist that can be found, high or low, is spouting this "gun rights" crap...and pretty much every gun show is also filled with Nazi memorabilia and white power brochures.


And if you want a REAL laugh, hie yourself over to the J/PS gun dungeon and glance at the "Knob Creek....WSJ" thread, where gun enthusiasts THEMSELVES link with pride to an article in the far right wing Wall Street Journal on one of their gatherings...then erupt in rage when it's pointed out that even THAT article remarks there are armed loonies wearing Nazi uniforms wandering around.

[DoNotRefill]

46. Just as there are people wandering around wearing Soviet uniforms...

they're called "re-enactors", and somehow I seriously doubt that the people in the uniforms are either nazis or communists...

[MrBenchley]

48. Surrrrrrrrre, there are

Funny, the Wall Street Journal didn't mention THAT.

[DoNotRefill]

49. Here's a link to one such group...

http://www.redarmyonline.org/

Enjoy.

[MrBenchley]

51. Here are some links to Nazis and "gun rights"

"by Dr. William L. Pierce, Chairman, the National Alliance
(a speech given by Dr. Pierce on the nationwide radio program, AMERICAN DISSIDENT VOICES, January 29th, 1994)
THERE IS HARDLY AN ISSUE which more sharply divides White Americans than "gun control." There is hardly a more significant difference than that which exists between the people who want gun control and those who don't. For there is a great temperamental and ideological divide between those who believe in self-defense and those who believe in surrendering and begging for mercy. "

http://www.natvan.com/american-dissident-voices/adv012994.html

"Bushmaster Requests Your Help in Preventing Junk Lawsuits Against the Firearms Industry "

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=64424

"With gun owners increasingly aware of the Jewish leadership of the gun-banning movement, a group of Jews in Milwaukee claiming to be defenders of the Second Amendment have been noisily denouncing gun control as a "Nazi" scheme. The group, calling themselves Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership, assert that Adolf Hitler was the father of all gun grabbers. The proof of this, they claim, was the German Weapons Law (Waffengesetz) of March 18, 1938, which was enacted by Germany's National Socialist government. They have succeeded in persuading at least one magazine read by firearms enthusiasts to publicize their claims repeatedly (Guns and Ammo, May 1993 and March 1994).
The truth of the matter is that the 1938 German law specifically provided for the ownership and carrying of firearms, including handguns, by law-abiding German citizens. Jews, of course, were not German citizens -- the National Socialists defined citizenship in ethnic terms -- and the law specifically barred Jews from having any role in the manufacture of firearms or ammunition or from being firearms dealers (but not from purchasing or owning firearms).
The German law certainly was not an ideal one from the viewpoint of today's beleaguered American patriot, because it did have certain licensing requirements. "

http://www.stormfront.org/revision/nazi-law.html

here was too much Nazi memorabilia for sale. Not just vintage pistols and daggers and medals, but training booklets and other propaganda, uniform apparel, and suspiciously new-looking swastika flags. Kinda creepy.

http://substitute.livejournal.com/75943.html

""The holes are simply part and parcel of the last leg of the journey to the Franklin County Fairgrounds, in Hilliard, Ohio, where a PRO gun show is being held. Hilliard is a suburb of Columbus, Ohio, and PRO gun shows are generally held in Central Ohio. Some dealers travel with it, while others only get a table when it shows up in their neighborhood. Occasionally there are other gun shows in the area, but the PRO shows are regular, usually one a month. They are known for being rather political. ...The people walking to and from the three fairgrounds buildings hosting the gun show shiver in their windbreakers and jackets. Around the buildings are the pickup trucks and cars of exhibitors and attendees. Many are festooned with bumper stickers: "You Can Have My Gun When You Pry it From My Cold, Dead Body"; "Buchanan for President"; "Impeach Clinton."
Several Nazi flags are in evidence at the gun show, and though most are displayed as militaria, one has to wonder who--other than Marge Schott--might want to buy a Nazi flag. There are some more obvious examples of bigotry. A grim-looking vendor near the front of one of the fairgrounds buildings sits behind piles of material that he is selling which include copies of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. At another table one can purchase the infamous Turner Diaries, which merely labeling "racist" seems not to do them justice. And several exhibitors have copies of the weekly newspaper, The Spotlight, published by the blatantly anti-Semitic organization The Liberty Lobby, which also helped to fund the Institute for Historical Review, a group that denies the Holocaust ever happened. "

http://www.adl.org/mwd/gunshow.asp

By the way, refill, if these are only pretend soldiers, why are they dicking around with REAL guns?

[DoNotRefill]

53. The same reason Civil War re-enactors use real guns and cannons...

realism.

BTW, since these guys dress up in Soviet Uniforms, are they really Communists? How can you tell the difference between the people who dress up in Soviet uniforms because they're really communists and those who dress up in Soviet uniforms because they're re-enactors? And when was the last time you heard of re-enactors committing ANY crime?

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

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[MrBenchley]

55. By the way...

Exactly WHEN did the Soviet Army clash with the Nazis in rural Tennessee?

[DoNotRefill]

56. When did the Americans storm the Nazi defenses of Normandy...

in Virginia Beach? Who says it has to take place on the real battlefield where it happened? Most of them are memorials or parks.

Ever hear of "living history"? There are people who do re-enactments of the middle ages in the US (RennFest du Jure, complete with swords, armor, horses, and women wearing tight bodices...go to any science fiction convention, and they're all OVER the place along with the fat kids wearing Spock ears), there are people who do Revolutionary War re-enactments, Civil War re-enactments, and there are people who do WWI and WWII re-enactments. I've even heard of Viet-Nam re-enactors, but they generally end up being designated as op-for against National Guard units for training purposes, with the National Guard people being in the American role, and the re-enactors being either VC or NVA. Apparently the powers-that-be think it's good training to have them go up against people who can do it realistically instead of just a platoon or squad from one of the involved units.

The middle ages people aren't feudalists (even the SCA people, who are the wackiest in the bunch...sure, some live communally, but if they get sick, they go to a doctor and get antibiotics or whatever), the RevWar people aren't monarchists, the Civil War people aren't Unionists or Confederatists, and I've yet to meet a WWII German or Soviet re-enactor who was either a Nazi or a Communist.

Hell, for that matter, go to a sci-fi convention. Most of them have some kind of LARP game running. The Cyberpunk ones can be pretty funny.

[MrBenchley]

57. Too too funny

"I've yet to meet a WWII German or Soviet re-enactor who was either a Nazi or a Communist."
You ought to go to a gun show...they're lousy with REAL Nazis.

"Hell, for that matter, go to a sci-fi convention."
Been to them...and I've yet to see any of them with a WORKING ray gun.

[DoNotRefill]

58. How about...

"Been to them...and I've yet to see any of them with a WORKING ray gun."

the folks wandering around with the big-assed swords?

And what do you base your trolling statement about gunshows being lousy with nazis on? When was the last time you were at a gunshow and actually saw a real nazi?

[MrBenchley]

60. Who the hell are you trrying to kid?

"what do you base your trolling statement about gunshows being lousy with nazis on?"
Actual fact, refill, as opposed to gun nut fantasy.

"And saw a whole buncha fat old white-guys selling bayonets, survival gear, pamphplets on evil jews and the new world order, a whole buncha nazi and soviet medals, uniforms, and assorted paraphernalia, and collector items like powder horns from 250 years ago, knives, clips, beef-jerky. Very few actual *guns*, which was what I was there for. "

http://www.xent.com/FoRK-archive/2001.01/0191.html

"There was too much Nazi memorabilia for sale. Not just vintage pistols and daggers and medals, but training booklets and other propaganda, uniform apparel, and suspiciously new-looking swastika flags. Kinda creepy. "

http://substitute.livejournal.com/75943.html

"Several Nazi flags are in evidence at the gun show, and though most are displayed as militaria, one has to wonder who--other than Marge Schott--might want to buy a Nazi flag. There are some more obvious examples of bigotry. A grim-looking vendor near the front of one of the fairgrounds buildings sits behind piles of material that he is selling which include copies of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. At another table one can purchase the infamous Turner Diaries, which merely labeling "racist" seems not to do them justice. And several exhibitors have copies of the weekly newspaper, The Spotlight, published by the blatantly anti-Semitic organization The Liberty Lobby, which also helped to fund the Institute for Historical Review, a group that denies the Holocaust ever happened. "

http://www.adl.org/mwd/gunshow.asp

" The following excerpt from the Pennsylvania-based Christian Posse Comitatus newsletter The Watchman was found on the home page of Stormfront...'Knowledge is power, go to the Gun shows and buy the how-to books and learn the art of war. ' The "Aryan Nations, militias and the Posse" are lumped together and portrayed only as victims of demonization whose free speech rights are threatened. The Aryan Nations and the Posse Comitatus promote Christian Identity, a vicious antisemitic religious philosophy that often overlaps with neonazi beliefs."

http://www.publiceye.org/media/hardrit.html

"If she doesn't know what to expect, a woman's trip to her first gun show can make her somewhat testy. This weekend's extravaganza at Cashman Center served as an eye-opening immersion in the world of freedom-loving, government-challenging, large-belt-buckle-wearing white men who love their guns. ...Some tips:
Mask any surprise or disbelief. This will serve you particularly well when you're looking over some of the tables dotted with Swastika patches and white supremacist offerings, like The Turner Diaries and literature that denies the Holocaust. "

http://www.lasvegasweekly.com/2003/05_15/news_upfront1.html

"The National Alliance (NA) is one of the larger neo-nazi groups in the United States . Estimates of its size range from 1,000 to 1,500, and NA activities have been reported in 51 cities. For most of its 27 years it has been, by design, a propaganda machine for the white racist movement, publishing books, a newspaper, audio cassettes, and racist paraphernalia.
More often their tactics are quite blatant. They hang banners in public places, rent booths at gun shows, post materials on public property and distribute their propaganda by hand in suburban neighborhoods. They especially like to exploit incidents of Black-White conflict and local racial tensions in order to elicit interest from potential supporters. "

http://www.prejudiceinstitute.org/NationalAllianceFS.html

""Gun shows have become town-hall meetings for racists and antigovernment radicals," said Gerald Post, director of the political psychology program at George Washington University." Prosecutors of McVeigh have claimed that McVeigh used the gun shows to "fence stolen weapons, make contacts to buy bomb materials and hone his terrorist skills." That most gun-shows attract their share of anti-government and extremist individuals is without argument. In a speech at the University of California-Riverside, Noel Ignatiev, of the Violence Policy Center, said that "gun shows have become Tupperware parties for criminals." Citing a seventy-two page study conducted by the Center, it was stated that "gun shows have become town squares where militia members and the extremist fringe recruit new members and they have become a primary source for stolen military parts." "

http://eyeonhate.com/mcveigh/mcveigh6.html

"With less emphasis on local public meetings as a recruiting mechanism for the Militia of Montana, John Trochmann has increased his visibility at gun shows and survival "expos" across the country.  In November in Columbus, Ohio, he appeared at what was billed as the first-ever Conspiracy Theory Expo.  A Preparedness and Self-Reliance Expo going on at the same time featured workshops on farming techniques and wilderness survival skills.  Around the corner, the Conspiracy Theory Expo offered an ocean of Patriot literature and videotapes.  James Nichols, brother of alleged Oklahoma City bomber Terry Nichols; Larry Pratt, head of the right-wing Gun Owners of American; and recently arrested militia figure, Mark Koernke, were featured guests along with Trochmann."

http://www.mhrn.org/news/flash16.html

[DoNotRefill]

65. So, if one of the biggest neo-nazi organizations...

sports a whopping 1500 members nation wide, and there are 80 MILLION gun owners, they make up WHAT percentage of gun owners?

[MrBenchley]

67. Neo-nazis are a fixture at gun shows

Now go peddle this gun rights horseshit to someone dumb enough to buy it..

[DoNotRefill]

71. according to your sources...

they're a tiny, tiny minority of the gun culture. Given that, how much presence can they really have? There are hundreds of gun shows every weekend in the US. If going to gun shows was ALL they did every weekend, how many racists per gun show would that be?

[MrBenchley]

73. And according to you

they were just play-acting...but that sure turned out to be a steaming pantload, didn't it?

[DoNotRefill]

74. You're talking about two different groups...

historical re-enactors on one side, and racists on the other. BTW, in case you didn't know, there are a lot more re-enactors out there than skinhead types...

[MrBenchley]

76. Yeah, surrrrrrrrre....

And you were desperately trying to pretend one of them didn't exist.

[DoNotRefill]

78. Huh?

who was I pretending didn't exist?

My point was...well, never mind...it's not like you make any kind of factual or substansive argument...

[Jackie97]

50. I have a question.

While I don't deny that a lot of people promoting gun rights happen to probably be racist, do you tend to believe that gun rights advocate equals racist? I'm a little confused on that one.

[MrBenchley]

52. I would say

that someone predisposed to swallow the bogus arguments of the gun rights crowd is probably racist...I mean, we're talking about people who accept Ted Nugent as an "authority."

Worth noting that even here, the gun rights crowd sure doesn't get too upset when, for example, there are armed nutcases in Nazi uniforms wandering around their jamborees...or the Aryan Nation sets up a table to hand out literature at their gun show. You will notice the screaming here is not that such things occur...but that anyone was so uncourteous as to mention it aloud in public.

You migth also take a look at the NRA's preposterous "enemies list" which contains just about every group you can think of working for tolerance and diversity, as well pretty much everybody else but a handful of loonies.

[Name removed]

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[MrBenchley]

61. Who the hell are you trying to kid, refill?

There's absolutely no doubt that any racist that can be found high or low these days is in favor of this "gun rights" horseshit...and that's fact, not gun nut fantasy.

""there's nothing so passionate as a vested interest disguised as an intellectual conviction""
Like those with a gun fetish...

[DoNotRefill]

62. C'mon, Benchley...

why can't you admit the racist nature of gun control before the 1950's? It poisons your (snicker) credibility...

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

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[DoNotRefill]

64. Once again, you dodge the question....

because you simply don't like the truth....prior to the 1950's, EVERY gun control law in the US was of a racist nature.

[MrBenchley]

68. What a pantload!!

[DoNotRefill]

70. Fine. In that case...

please cite a SINGLE pre-1950's gun control law that was not somehow geared towards keeping minorities disarmed. There were plenty of them, so finding ONE shouldn't be a problem, should it?

[MrBenchley]

72. Here are two,, refill

The National Firearms Act of 1934 and the The Federal Firearms Act of 1938.

Please tell us what was racist about either one of these.

[DoNotRefill]

75. LOL!!!

The National Fireams Act....Let's see, what could POSSIBLY be racist about a law that requires a person to go to their chief of police and get their prior approval to buy a gun? The NFA '34 is a frigging POSTER CHILD for Jim Crow.

The Federal Firearms Act of 1938 ordered the disarming of "known criminals"...care to wager what race or ethnicity that disproportionately affected under a racist judicial system???

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

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[DoNotRefill]

79. Are you suggesting that the NFA '34 was NOT racist?

given the requirement for the cops to sign off at their discretion? Isn't that practically the DEFINITION of Jim Crow? Or wasn't the literacy test for voting administered at the discretion of the police Jim Crow?

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

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[MrBenchley]

69. What's amazing is what passes for RKBA "logic"

Let's see, the argument is that gun control is somehow racist...

Are there any racist groups calling for gun control? No, they're ALL in the other camp.

Are there any groups that are opposed to racism fighting against gun control? No, instead they've all ended up on the NRA's enemies list.

[FlashHarry]

80. Moving and locking.

This is a J/PS issue. Starting pro/anti-gun flame fests in other forums will not be tolerated.

Thanks for your cooperation.

FlashHarry
DU Moderator