More of America's Gun culture, May 7, 2008

[zanne]

FL: Autopsy Reveals Gun Range Shooting Was Suicide
TX: Police: Road rage incident leads to shooting
OR: Off-Duty Maine Officer Dies from Accidental Shooting
KY: The husband of a nursing home patient shot his wife at the facility before turning the gun on himself Tuesday afternoon.
CA: Boy, 14, dies in Pacoima shooting
PA: Police Probe Shooting In Pittsburgh Neighborhood
IL: In a separate incident, a 15-year-old boy was shot and critically wounded as he walked on the city's Southeast Side, according to police.
MA: A 19-year-old was shot in the chest in a drive-by shooting this afternoon in Berkley, police said.
TX: 1 injured in daytime shooting in East Austin apartment complex
SC: Spartanburg police investigating shooting of 17-year-old male
***


Source: http://www.gunguys.com

[coriolis]

1. gunguys.com = moronicfucks.com

...

[villager]

2. notice the quite typical eloquence of the gun cultist response to these facts?

n/t

[ManiacJoe]

30. There was no response to the facts.

The response is to the idiots running the gunguys.com website and to the readers who choose to frequent that site instead of educating themselves on the topic of guns.

[zanne]

3. Classy, coriolis.

:sarcasm:

[zanne]

4. Of course, "Guntards.net" is a much more intelligent website!

:rofl:

[iverglas]

9. watchit now

You're talking about my fan club!

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=site%3Awww.guntards.net+iverglas&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

[zanne]

42. Oh no, Iverglas!

You made the guntards upset. Worst of all, you're an "anti-gun female Canadian"! :rofl:

It's a very revealing site, though. One guy says "we're just trolling" (as I've suspected all along), another guy says...................wait for it.....................

"I gave up on DU a long time ago. Not only are most members and the moderators anti-gun, but I found out a long time ago (like Cindy Sheehan did recently) that it's a mouthpiece for the Democratic Party."

How dumb, deaf and blind do you have to be not to realize that DU stands for "Democratic" Underground? :freak:

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

5. Thoughts and Prayers to the victims and the families of the lost.

I hope the criminals who perpetrated many of these crimes are punished to the full extent of the law.


David

[hack89]

6. Don't you mean Crime Culture? nt

[iverglas]

7. is suicide a crime where you are?

Tell us, what's the sentence?

Life without parole?

[hack89]

12. You really believe that they would still be alive if there were no guns? nt

[iverglas]

13. okay, I give up

Why are you asking me this?

You said something incredibly stupid. I pointed out how stupid it was. So you come back with a question that has nothing to do with anything I said.

You said that thread should say "crime" instead of "guns" or some such.

Several of the items in the opening post had nothing to do with crime. Some were suicides. So your comment was a waste of space. That was my own point.

But what the hell. Do I believe that some of these people would still be alive "if there were no guns"? (That's a pretty fucking stupid premise, but you like it, so we'll run with it.)

I believe there is a good chance that some of them would still be alive.

These two in particular:

KY: The husband of a nursing home patient shot his wife at the facility before turning the gun on himself Tuesday afternoon.

Murder-suicide is a particular phenomenon. It can have different causes -- in this case it was quite likely despair; in others it is apparently sheer selfishness and, usually, misogyny.

But it is a different phenomenon from simple homicide or simple suicide. It is committed by people who have a plan that involves killing someone else *and* killing themselves.

So in this case, the husband could have killed ihs wife by, oh, putting a pillow over her face.

And then ... walked to the nearest tall building and jumped off? Gone to the nurses' station and hoped to find a lethal dose of something lying around? Pulled a pillow over his face and held his breath, maybe?

Murder-suicide is an event that is facilitated by access to firearms and that in, probably, most cases would NOT occur if there were no access to firearms.

And if the individual who has formed the idea of doing this does not have access to means that ensure s/he will be able to carry out the plan with virtual certainty of success -- both elements of it -- s/he is very probably NOT going to do it.

Fairly recently there was an instance of a double murder-suicide (two murder victims, one suicide) near Canada's capital where a firearm was not used for the murders. The husband used a knife and possibly a blunt weapon, I forget, to kill his wife and her mother. The attacks were savage and obviously indicated the vileness of his character. But he killed himself with a gun. Had he not had the gun, would he have just killed the two women and waited to get arrested? Killed the two women and jumped off a bridge? Unlikely scenarios, I'm afraid.

There ya go. Enough for you this evening.

[hack89]

15. Well, I guess I don't see your point

you have lumped together a dispart group of social problems with the clear implication that without guns these problems will be cured. You may live in a cartoonish, black and white world but I don't. You don't like guns - I get it. Your way of "proving" how evil they are is simplistic to the extreme.

[iverglas]

16. I'm not surprised

You seem either to be wearing something over your eyes or pretending to see things that aren't there.


you have lumped together

*I* did no such thing.

See the username on the opening post? Is it mine? Nope.

I do notice that so far you have not had word one to say about anything I actually HAVE said. Guess there's just nothing to say. Too bad for you, that.


You may live in a cartoonish, black and white world but I don't.

No, you apparently live in a world of perpetual darkness where you can't see anything that's actually there and see things through your mind's eye instead.


You don't like guns - I get it.

How does one "get" something that isn't anything?

You have imagined that I don't like guns. Trust me: you have imagined it.

I am not in the habit of having emotional responses to objects, unless they in the nature of art. I did see pictures of a pair very fine antique English shotguns someplace last year that I thought were quite beautiful (somewhere in this forum I posted pix of something resembling them that google images found me). So I'd hardly say I "don't like" them.


Your way of "proving" how evil they are is simplistic to the extreme.

And you speak a fine lot of obnoxious nonsense.

If I wanted to prove how evil something was, I obviously wouldn't be short of evidence.

Anyone who attempted to prove that an object was evil would be a moron. Or up to no good. I'm not seeing the evidence on which you claim that I am either of those things.


And of course I'm not seeing you saying anything at all that relates to anything that's been said here.

[hack89]

41. My mistake - sorry. Will pay closer attention to the OP next time. nt

[zanne]

43. Of course they would.

Now that, I have to say, was NOT a smart question. (DU rules restrict language and I will respect that).

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

19. Attempting suicide is a crime.

You get the death penalty for suicide though.

David

[iverglas]

22. maybe where you're at!

We got rid of that medieval crap a few decades ago, where I'm at.

Yer god may want to have words with you for trying to kill yerself, but the Cdn criminal justice system stays out of it!

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

26. Just answering what you asked.

[iverglas]

29. no, not

If you read carefully, I asked: is suicide a crime?

I didn't ask: is ATTEMPTED suicide a crime?

The reason I asked was that someone had pretended that the opening post should be titled CRIME CULTURE rather than GUN CULTURE, when many of the incidents reported in the post were NOT crimes.

Suicide is NOT a crime.

See?

Things like this just clutter up threads with pointless static.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

34. Suicides a crime too. Just rarely prosecuted.

[mitchleary]

8. Can you explain something to me?

Uh the IL incident, guns are ILLEGAL in Chicago, how did someone get shot?

Can any of you people that want guns outlawed tell me?

More laws do NOT work. It is utter bullshit. Punish the people that use guns illegally like the the three teens that car-jacked and robbed me at gunpoint. Was it illegal for them to have that gun? You bet it was. Did that stop them? No fucking way.

Newsflash!!!! Criminals do NOT care about laws against robbery and murder and they do NOT give a shit if the gun they carry is illegal.

[iverglas]

10. I will if you will

My 7-11 has a shoplifting problem.

How can this be???

Isn't shoplifting against the law??????

(I'll help you out: my 7-11 is in Canada, and in Canada shoplifting is against the law. I can't speak for where you are.)

So -- how can this be??????????


the the three teens that car-jacked and robbed me at gunpoint. Was it illegal for them to have that gun? You bet it was. Did that stop them? No fucking way.

Hmm. And punishing them for it would stop them from having the gun?

Things must work differently where you're at.

When you drop something, does it fall up?


Newsflash!!!! Criminals do NOT care about laws against robbery and murder and they do NOT give a shit if the gun they carry is illegal.

Uh ... duh?

So your point here is ... ?

[mitchleary]

11. My point is this

your response sounds pompous and this is the difference.

It is like shoplifting? I mean come on, is there legal shoplifting?

It would be better to compare gun ownership to car ownership.

Owning a firearm is like owning a car, it comes with responsibility. There are people that are and there are people that are not. Does taking a driver's license away prevent a drunk from driving again? No. Is it illegal, yeah, do they care, some do not.
Just like criminals and guns. There are law abiding gun owners as well, people that do not use their maliciously. Mine poke holes in paper, no harm done.


To address your statement about the people that car-jacked me. Sure, they are in prison, is it a deterrent? Mostly no. If it was people would not get out and commit violent felonies. To illustrate this one of the felons who robbed me made bail and while he was out waiting to be tried for car-jacking, he takes part in a drive by shooting.

The guns do not need to be changed, it is the culture of our society where people think it is ok to rob people with a weapon.

Anything else?

[iverglas]

14. ooh, I like that analogy

Does taking a driver's license away prevent a drunk from driving again? No. Is it illegal, yeah, do they care, some do not.

So, what do we do, if we're smart?

Well, we attach a breathalyzer to his/her car, and once s/he gets the licence back, we require him/her to blow in it every time s/he wants to drive.

We also have disincentives for people who let people like that drive their cars, while suspended or when drunk. Insurance rates are one such disincentive; let a suspended or drunk driver drive your car, and you're going to find yourself with a whopping rate increase, I expect. If we found there was a widespread problem with people letting suspended or drunk drivers drive their cars, we might have to find some tougher way of dealing with it.

So, how would you like to apply that to gunz? How would you like to make sure that someone not eligible to have possession of a firearm doesn't get possession of it?

I'm not going to stand for any crap about possession of a firearm being like possession of a car, by the way. Possession of a firearm implies the ability to take it out and about without the public or the authorities having any notice; firearms can be used to cause harm without being taken anywhere. Firearms really don't just sit in garages like cars.


The guns do not need to be changed, it is the culture of our society where people think it is ok to rob people with a weapon.

And meanwhile, we'll just open up the buffet and let them have all the guns they can eat, right?


Anything else?

Uh, "else"? You seem to think you've accomplished something ...

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

20. Firearms really don't just sit in garages like cars.

Most people I know don't store their firearms in their garage. That would be irresponsible, garages are far easier to break into unnoticed than a house. Also someone just might leave the garage door up. I've left mine up all night. All they could have stolen though was construction tools, worth more than my guns, but hard to rob someone with a nail gun. My guns have sat in my house unused for over a year before, I've never had a car sit in my garage that long.

David

[iverglas]

21. I'm sorry, but

what was the point of this?

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

28. Just responding to the point you made in your post.

[iverglas]

31. no, not

It's possible that you didn't grasp the point I was making in my post, but nonetheless your post was not responsive to it.

My point was that when a car is not in use, it is sitting in a garage (or in a driveway or on a street) doing nothing. A car has two states: being driven and not being driven.

The same cannot be said about a firearm. A firearm is not "in use" -- particularly if you listen to a gun-head -- only when the trigger is being pulled.

A firearm in someone's pocket on a trip to the mall is NOT comparable to a car sitting in a garage.

A firearm without a finger on the trigger is NOT comparable to a car without a foot on the gas pedal.

Someone who is prohibited from driving on public highways cannot do so without putting that great big hunk of steel and stuff in motion and being visible to all and sundry.

Someone who is not eligible to carry a firearm around in public can do it with complete impunity, because no one can see it.

Someone who is prohibited from driving has to have or find a car to drive -- and if his/her car is equipped with a breathalyzer and no friend in his/her right mind would lend him/her a car because of the fear of repercussions such as insurance rates tripling, s/he is going to have a hard time driving a car.

Someone who is prohibited from possessing a firearm just has to answer an ad in the classifieds.

I don't know what point you were making, but it had nothing to do with my post.

More static.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

35. Your post was confusing.

I'm still not sure what you mean here. How will people know if the person driving is prohibited from doing so? I would argue that a firearm is in use anytime it is being handled for the purpose of firing it. I'm really not sure you wrote what you meant to there, it's the not "in use", you mean in use right? How is a firearm without a finger on the trigger different from a car without a foot on the gas pedal? Neither will do anything without the action of the operator. Private gun sellers should have access to the NCIS so they can verify that it is legal for the buyer to possess the weapon. Most of the pro-gun people here have agreed with that concept on numerous threads.

David

[gorfle]

24. Of course you won't.

I'm not going to stand for any crap about possession of a firearm being like possession of a car, by the way. Possession of a firearm implies the ability to take it out and about without the public or the authorities having any notice; firearms can be used to cause harm without being taken anywhere. Firearms really don't just sit in garages like cars.

Of course you won't. Because you'd be painted into a corner - again.

You can't take a firearm out and about without a permit - unless you want to break the law, in which case it doesn't matter what the laws are anyway.

Cars can be used to cause harm without being taken anywhere, too. Lots of folks sit in them and gas themselves in their garage.

Guns in our country are treated much like cars. If you want to use them in public, you have to get a permit.

[iverglas]

32. no, you can stop there

You can't take a firearm out and about without a permit

bzzzzt. Yes you can. You can do it with complete impunity, because nobody can see it.

- unless you want to break the law, in which case it doesn't matter what the laws are anyway.

Fuckin duh. What did you imagine my point was?

I've already explained it to one of your little friends in this thread, so I'll let you read that.

And maybe you will be the one to let me know what year the cloaking device was invented that makes it as easy to drive a car while prohibited as it is to carry a firearm around while ineligible.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

36. People prohibited from driving can take a car out too.

The only way you are going to get caught is if a police officer pulls you over and checks. Very similar to people carrying guns illegally. How do you identify prohibited drivers in Canada? Do you paint them a certain color so everyone who drives by them will know they are doing so illegally?


David

[gorfle]

37. BAHAHAHAHAH

Way to go, David. Precisely so.

[gorfle]

38. Yeah, stops lots of drivers, too.

bzzzzt. Yes you can. You can do it with complete impunity, because nobody can see it.

Like Dave pointed out, people get busted around here all the time for driving without a license or insurance.

Fuckin duh. What did you imagine my point was?

It's so hard to tell, Iverglas. Between the vulgarity, sarcasm, vitriol, patronization, condescension, obtuseness, and you pretending that everything you say means something else, who knows?

I've already explained it to one of your little friends in this thread, so I'll let you read that.

And maybe you will be the one to let me know what year the cloaking device was invented that makes it as easy to drive a car while prohibited as it is to carry a firearm around while ineligible.

Yeah, all those people driving around with no licenses or insurance have a big sign that floats around over their heads saying "PROHIBITED DRIVER".

[mitchleary]

46. Just curious

how the gun I have for target practice hurts you?

My gun sits in a safe, like you car sits in garage.

To address you point about making the drunk driver blow everytime before they drive? what if they drive another car? People in this country voted for * cuz they could have a beer with him, they are not smart enough to not let soeone drive their car. If they want to drive, the only way to stop them is to lock them up. my best friend is a police officer and your jaw would the floor if you heard some of the stories.

What do you do with a person who gets five duis and still drives drunk? fine them, jail them for a while, and yet they still find a way to drive drunk.

In IL if you are caught with a gun and do not have an foid card, it is a class 3 felony. same if it is in your car, and not in case, unloaded and out of reach.

This is where I need to ask you about what axe you have to grind.
I live in IL where we have some of the toughest laws in the country regarding firearms(like top 3). Yet Chicago has one of the highest murder rates in the country and guns are illegal in the City and people get shot, how do you stop the illegal guns. Criminals get their hands on automatic weapons, they have been illegal to all but those with special permits since 1927.

So what is it? My gun hurts no one and I am reponsible so how does it hurt you?

[iverglas]

49. curiouser and curiouser

Just curious how the gun I have for target practice hurts you?

Me, I'm curious why you ask.

Did I say it hurts me? Did I say something to suggest to you that I think it hurts me?

No? So why do you ask?

Does it hurt you when I drive down the highway at 140 km/h as I am wont to do, even if I do it where you are?


To address you point about making the drunk driver blow everytime before they drive? what if they drive another car?

Amazingly, if you go back to the post you were apparently reading, you'll find that I have addressed this question already. Why don't you try reading what I said?

they are not smart enough to not let soeone drive their car.

Well then, I guess that insurance rate thang isn't working where you're at. I guess you might need to take some tougher approach, like criminal penalties for letting disqualified drivers drive one's car.

If they want to drive, the only way to stop them is to lock them up.

That is very true of yer chronic drunk. It is a major problem in criminal justice policy and law enforcement. The built-in breathalyzer is one effort to deal with it.

What do you do with a person who gets five duis and still drives drunk? fine them, jail them for a while, and yet they still find a way to drive drunk.

And yet the overall incidence of drunk driving has been steadily declining for some time now.

Who said we could create utopia? Not moi. I say there are usually ways to reduce harms. They seem to exist for drunk driving.


In IL if you are caught with a gun and do not have an foid card, it is a class 3 felony. same if it is in your car, and not in case, unloaded and out of reach.

That's nice. And if you are not caught ...


This is where I need to ask you about what axe you have to grind.

Do you? That's nice.


I live in IL where we have some of the toughest laws in the country regarding firearms(like top 3). Yet Chicago has one of the highest murder rates in the country and guns are illegal in the City and people get shot, how do you stop the illegal guns. Criminals get their hands on automatic weapons, they have been illegal to all but those with special permits since 1927.

And there is a moat around Chicago filled with firearm-eating crocodiles, making it impossible to import firearms into Chicago from the outside world ...

There might be a clue there about how to "stop the illegal guns" ... I wonder ...



typos fixed

[Irreverend IX]

17. OR: Off-Duty Maine Officer Dies from Accidental Shooting

The Gun Guys are kind of undermining their entire ideology by posting all these police mishaps. Do they want to disarm cops too? I thought that police had super elite training that allowed them to use firearms more safely and effectively than mere civilians could ever hope to.

[iverglas]

27. you thought

http://www.necn.com/Boston/New-England/Portland-police-vet-dies-from-selfinflicted-gunshot/1210110299.html

Westbrook police were called to Sgt. Robert Johnsey's home around 11:30 Monday night after Johnsey's wife called 911 to report a shooting. Police found the off-duty officer unconscious and bleeding from a gunshot wound to the leg.

The responding officers performed first aid on Johnsey at the house until the ambulance arrived. Then, he was rushed to Maine Medical Center where he was pronounced dead just before midnight.

Police who responded to the scene, say there is no doubt that the gun went off by accident.

Baker: "Sgt. Johnsey was doing something that all of us in law enforcement do 240 times a year. That is getting our duty belts ready for the next day of work...this is a tragic accident that occurred. ."

Exactly how Johnsey tripped the trigger is unclear, he was an award-winning marksman, a veteran police officer and a veteran of the Gulf War.

I suppose it was just one of those mickey mouse police awards that any idiot with a gun could have won.

[gorfle]

40. Maybe so.

Do you know anything about civilian marksmanship?

Google is your friend.

[zanne]

45. You'll notice no responses to this thread from gun nuts. It's too real. nt

[facepalm]

18. you'll get more of america's gun culture...

You'll get more of America's gun culture in November. You'll find that our resistance to registration doesn't extend to registering for the vote. We do that gladly.

Remember that many of us are gun owners first and liberals second. I'm fortunate in that I don't have to choose here in the land of the pro-gun democrats. But that won't be the case everywhere. Making people choose between loyalty to their civil rights and loyalty to our candidates and party is not a wise choice at the end of the day.

[iverglas]

23. weird, isn't it?

Voting is a right, and yet people think it's okay to have to register in order to exercise it ...

Of course, it isn't actually a right in your constitution like it is in mine, but I'm sure you get my drift.

[gorfle]

25. It's a drift alright - straight out to sea.

Voting is a right, and yet people think it's okay to have to register in order to exercise it ...

No liberty is at risk by registering voters.

Liberty is at risk by registering firearms and/or firearm owners.

[iverglas]

33. I see words and punctuation

patched together into meaningless bald assertions.

[gorfle]

39. I see words and punctuation

patched together into meaningless rebuttals.

[zanne]

44. Gun-owners first and liberals second?

Are you f**king kidding me? Then I'm calling you out. No way you're intending to vote for a Dem in November in the first place. And if your gun is more important to you than four more years of young people coming home in bodybags, corruption in government, a failing economy, people dying for lack of health insurance, etc. you're not the kind of person I want to share a Party with. How absolutely self-centered and selfish can you get? I don't know how you got that way, but your values are really skewed.

[WWFZD]

47. Nice dreams

In Ohio we recently threw out a bunch of corrupt Republicans, and replaced them with er, uh, corrupt Democrats.
Iraq? McCain, Clinton, Obama? Watch and see what changes in Iraq, no matter who wins. Hopefully the Dem president can get some allies to kick in on the cost but the majority of the dying will still be done by Americans like always.
The economy? That's why I'm voting Democratic unless, and it's a very big unless, the Dem nominee comes out in favor of, and vows to sign, egregious anti RKBA legislation.
Health care? I've been hearing about that for 20 years now and we still have the same old mess. The best we can hope for is some kind subsidy for those who truly need it, want it and just can't afford it. Tax credits perhaps? Not itemized deductions from AGI subject to limitations but real dollar for dollar credits for low income folks.
So yes, fundamental issues regarding constitutional freedoms will be just as important in this election as they've always been, no matter what the idealists hope.

[zanne]

48. Well you, WWFZD, are clearly not an optimist.

I, for one, won't miss the Bush years.