What is "Responsible" gun ownership?

[WA98070]

In another thread the term "responsible gun owner" was used. We hear/read this term often but what is it really? Trigger locks, gun safes, bullets stored separate?

Limit the number of bullets in a magazine, fewer clips per person per gun?

I remember during the Clinton years a gun manufacturer had made an agreement to become a "responsible" gun manufacturer. I even recall they got attacked by the NRA over it and were trying to boycott their products.

Like all rights this one is tough. I hate to see it come up because it is used so well to get blue collar workers to vote against their overall best interest.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

1. What's so tough about it?

I consider a responsible gun owner one who is prepared to use his or her gun to defend his or herself properly without endangering innocent bystanders. This would include proper storage of firearms, which is different depending on the gun owners specific situation. Storing bullets separately, requiring trigger locks to be in place at all times would limit my ability to use my gun if necessary, which in my opinion would be irresponsible. A gun owner can't limit the number of bullets in a magazine, only the manufacturer can. I wouldn't even know how to begin to regulate "clips". I hope that answered your question.

David

[WA98070]

4. It's tough because we can't all agree.

If your gun is stolen is it still your responsibility if it is used in a crime?

What steps did you take to keep it from being stolen? My brother's was in his night stand so he could get it in a hurry--it got stolen. Had he taken it with him to church Sunday morning it wouidn't have been. My Aunt's was under her mattress--it got stolen.

Google "Gun Stolen Police Chief" and see it isn't just my irresponsible relatives either.

This is why it is tough.

Should I be drug tested at work, should abortions be abolished, should all unmarried men and women be forced to use birth control, should all cars be set with electronic governors that only allow the posted speed (sounds Owellian but is technologically possible) ....? I'd rather see that than those darn cameras everywhere.

It's tough because it's a "Right" and I won't give up yours but I can understand those who want to.

Re: magazine size...I was referring to what should be allowed-guess I wasn't clear.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

6. What do we all agree on?

To answer your question though. It isn't my legal responsibility if my gun/guns are stolen and used in a crime. I'll leave you to characterize your relatives as I don't know them. It is hard for me though to characterize victims of a crime as irresponsible. My guns are as secure as I see fit. I'll not discuss how I secure them, that's my business. Does your brother in law have a concealed carry permit? If not then he would have had to leave it in his car, where it is more likely to be stolen than if it was in his house, statistically speaking. A police department recently lost an Heckler & Koch MP5 select fire sub machine gun. That's irresponsible. As for your other questions depending on your job you may or may not need to be drug tested, I am and I think it's a good thing. You don't want me trying to intubate your relatives or driving a fire truck if I'm high. The other to issues are personal issues that have been decided by the Supreme Court, electronic governors would dramatically reduce the number of automotive related fatalities which far outnumber the number of gun deaths, in people and total costs. Depends how much freedom we want to give up for a little fleeting security.

David

[Boomer 50]

9. You cannot hold a legal owner of anything responsible

When the misuse of the product is by a third party without consent of the owner. This applies across the board. Not just to guns. Trust me, go down this path and you'll end up with every company in the nation being jammed with lawsuits and criminal charges.

As for magazine size. It's all bunk. Magazine size is meaningless and sorry but anyone who wants to restrict my right to self defense by any means, including how many cartridges may be carried in my firearm can kiss my ass. The Government is violating the 2nd Amendment with ANY prohibitive laws regarding the technical aspects of firearms. Personally, I consider it treasonous.

[gorfle]

19. It is a matter of proving negligence.

If your gun is stolen is it still your responsibility if it is used in a crime?

If you have to break into my house to get at my firearms, I should be off the hook for your actions.

I look at it like this: If someone steals my car by breaking into it and hotwiring it, and then uses it to plow into a crowd of people, killing them, I should not be responsible. If, on the other hand, I leave it out in public with the keys in it, that could be another matter.

I would argue that if my guns are in my house, even if my house is unlocked, if a stranger comes into my home, roots around, finds and steals my firearms, I should not be responsible for what they do with them. Especially if my house was locked, which it always is when I'm not in it.

[texshelters]

2. My question would be

Do you need a gun?

What is the motivation?

Tex Shelters

[N4457S]

3. Uh...

...the Second Amendment says it's none of your business.

Doesn't it?

And it appears those rights will soon be firmed up by the Supreme Court.

[texshelters]

23. Why are you so defensive? I was asking a question.

what are you afraid of?

Tex Shelters

[WA98070]

5. I live in a rural area and I have pets. Mother nature doesn't want me to.

Is that wrong?

There are other "safety" issues too. So some might say, "Yes."

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

7. What do your pets have to do with it?

I've got a ton of pets none have ever objected to my firearms. I have some friends who duck hunt and their retrievers go nuts with happiness when they see a shotgun can't get in the truck fast enough. If mine ever voice an objection to my firearms, I will promptly turn my guns and myself into the appropriate authorities. illegal codesmilie_remote(':-)')

David

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

8. Right this minute or possibly?

My motivation is it's legal for me to have them, I'm highly trained in their use and the cops routinely have a 10 minute response time here.

David

[texshelters]

24. You answered why you have one

not what your motivation is.

Can you try again?

Tex Shelters

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

28. Where did I do that?

I'm pretty sure if I answered why I have firearms then my motivation is clear. I still can't find where I did that though. So you'll have to refresh my memory.


David

[SteveM]

12. Some answers...

In my house, need at least one gun handy for self-defense, the motivation being self-preservation. Door locks, a dog and other measures may help, but against a home invasion, they are of little benefit. Therefore, "need" is a function of a possible threat. When away from my house (and knowing my habits and "rounds") I perceive comparatively little threat and the "need" for a firearm, so I do not carry one.

I also keep arms for hunting and recreation purposes. Again, "need" is a function of the desire to hunt.

Please be advised that I have a constitutional right to keep & bear arms regardless of my perceived "needs."

[texshelters]

25. Hey dudes, I know about the second amenedment BFD!

Thanks for actually telling me your motivation. Thanks good to hear. However, all research on robbery deterants still tell us that having a dog is the number one deterant. And if someone is really out to kill you for some reason, good luck!

Tex Shelters

[WWFZD]

27. Huh?

"And if someone is really out to kill you for some reason, good luck!"

Luck has nothing to do with it. Luck is a combination of preparation and opportunity. If someone is out to kill me for "some reason" the dog will do nothing but alert me to the threat before he gets killed. I will then retrieve my weapon and even the odds, most likely put the odds in my favor given my level of proficiency with firearms vs that of the average criminal, and in my residence.
I don't think you meant it but that post is a great argument for exercising your 2A rights for self-defense purposes.

[texshelters]

31. Average criminals don't go to kill you

they want to rob you. Professional target you for killing. They will get you if they want. That's my point. Unless you have a professional hit out on you, you don't need a gun as a deterant. Then a gun won't work anyhow. Unless you're a professional.

The second amendment is not an argument for responsible gun ownership any more than the legality of slavery was an argument for slavery.

Tex Shelters

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

33. That's your defense they probably want to just rob you so let them.

What if instead they want to rape you? I'll tell you about some criminals in a nearby state. 3 men and a woman car jacked a young couple from the University of Tennessee. They took them to a rental house and raped them both repeatedly then they took the young man out shot him in the head and set him on fire. They kept the girl alive for 24 more hours repeatedly raping her, making her drink bleach, they cut her finger off for a ring that they could have taken off, then they strangled her to death and shoved her in a trash can. Another couple was having a peaceful night at home when 3 juveniles kicked in the front door, they beat the man with a pistol, tied him up in a chair and then made him watch while the all raped his wife. So you go right ahead and put your faith in the goodness of the felons, after all they probably just want to rob you. I'll keep all of my guns and my dogs, when the dogs alert me to an intruder, I'll get my gun first then call 911. If a criminal breaks in my house with 4 big dogs, they don't have intentions of just robbing us. The average response time for police to a felony call in my city is 15 minutes. The Boy Scouts taught me to be prepared, I think it was good advice.

David

[texshelters]

35. We were talking about house invasion

Where did rape come in?

TS

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

38. Having a little trouble reading?

The 2nd case I spoke of involved a home invasion, presumably for armed robbery, but the criminals decided a little gang rape with her husband being forced to watch would be fun along with robbery. I'll use my constitutional rights instead of relying on the goodness of criminals. You are free to just let them rob you and hope your call gets through to 911 before the criminals get to you. That is your choice, please don't limit mine.

David

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

39. I don't blame you I wouldn't answer either.

[iverglas]

42. oh no, Paco!

It's the




http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/newsom.asp

When five armed people attempt to carjack you and your date, could you arrange to videotape how you fend them off by pulling your popgun out of your glove compartment, or your pocket, or wherever it happens to be at the time?

You seriously don't think you and your date are GOING TO GET SHOT if you pull that? You really think that the bad guys, as stupid as some of them may really be, are really that stupid? All five of 'em are going to stand there and put their hands up and back off if you somehow - and I really am not quite sure how - manage to get pistol in palm and make threatening gestures with it?

Now, when you're having "a peaceful night at home", do you always make sure there is a loaded gun in your lap? And if you do, and three juveniles kick in your door, you're quite sure you're going to be able to incapacitate all three of them before one of them gets you?

And the odds of all this happening anyway are ... well, as we know, lower than the odds of your firearm being stolen from your home (and hmm, maybe used to commit one of these heinous crimes) unless you keep it secured in such a way that a burglar is not going to find and take it.


I still wanna know, if festooning one's self with firearms is such an effective way of protecting one's self from bullets, why we don't arm the under-10 set. They get hit with bullets, and of course otherwise harmed at the hands of bigger people, at a rate that some people find rather alarming, and surely should not be denied whatever white magic cloak it is that having a pistol on their person would afford.

[iverglas]

43. well you might huh!

And if someone is really out to kill you for some reason, good luck!
If someone is out to kill me for "some reason" the dog will do nothing but alert me to the threat before he gets killed. I will then retrieve my weapon ...

You must move in circles populated only by really, really stupid people.

If someone was really OUT TO KILL YOU, s/he would attempt to carry out that plan by approaching your home and alerting your dog?

Heck, if those are the people you need to worry about, I think you could probably toss your guns in the river and set the dog free and leave all your doors and windows open, and they probably manage to trip on the doorstep and knock themselves out cold.

[krispos42]

10. A variety of things, in no particular order

First off, knowing your gun inside and out. You don't have to be able to draw a detailed schematic of every single part in it, but you should know what every moving part does. You should know how any combination of levers and buttons pressed will affect every other, so that when you put that safety on, you know exactly what is being disabled and what isn't.

As an example....

Does your handgun have a magazine-disconnect, where removing the magazine immobilized the firing pin? Some do, some don't.

Does your handgun have an internal locking mechanism?

Does you handgun have a separate manual safety? Or a safety/decocker? Or just a decocker? Does it even have a separate manual safety? Does it even have a safety at all?

Does your handgun have a firing pin blocker that is tied to trigger movement? In other words, if you drop the handgun on its hammer, will it go off?

Is it single-action, or double-action, or double-action-only, or partially-cocked (safe) action?

How many rounds does it hold?

Is there a loaded chamber indicator?

Do you know how to cycle the action?

Do you know how to safely decock your gun?



The second big aspect is storage. Is your current storage situation reasonable? If you have kids running around, your guns should be locked up in one form or another. Locked closet, gun safe, cable locks, critical components in a lockbox or quick-access safe, etc. A loaded .38 in the nightstand is fine if your kids are grown and out of the house, but not fine if curious 7-year-old Billy goes looking for a tissue and finds the gun.

Third is being able to document your guns. Taking a couple of digital pictures of each one, and a close-up of the make, model, and serial number, is good. You can even email them to yourself so you can get them anywhere in the world, even if your computer is stolen. This way, if your guns go missing, the cops know precisely what they are looking for. I believe there are ways to encrypt the pictures if privacy is an issue.

Fourth is knowing the safe rules of shooting. All guns are always loaded, never point a muzzle at anything you aren't willing to destroy, etc.

Fifth is knowing who you are buying from and selling too, especially handguns, as they are the firearm of choice for criminals. Keep a record of the sale, including a copy or digital photo of the driver's licence. If the cops come a-knocking because you're the last known owner of a crime gun, it sure would be nice if you can point them in the direction of the NEW last known owner.

[Indy Lurker]

11. what good is a loaded chamber indicator?

This is kind of a tangent, but I never understood the push for these a few years back.


Is a loaded chamber indicator ever a substitute for inspection of the chamber?

My understanding is that it is not.

It is also my view that until you have inspected the chamber the gun MUST be considered loaded.

[gorfle]

20. Loaded chamber indicator

My opinion is that the loaded chamber indicator is not so much for safety as it is a means to silently verify that your firearm is loaded. In a tactical situation, without such an indicator you must partially rack the slide to visually verify that there is a round chambered. With a loaded chamber indicator, you can verify that a round is loaded silently, and in the dark.

Likewise some hammerless pistols, like the Springfield Armory XD, also have a "hammer cocked" indicator that can be used to verify by sight and feel that the firearm is cocked.

The XD is a very nice pistol in that regard. You can, by feel alone, determine that operational status of the firearm.

[krispos42]

22. Checking in the dark

Let's say your SO prods you awake because of a "funny noise". So you slip out of bed, access your handgun and a flashlight, and check your gun. With a loaded chamber indicator you can do it without turning on a light and damaging your night vision. Drop the mag and you can tell by the heft if it's loaded or not, replace it and feel for the "loaded chamber" indicator, then check your hammer and safety.

Past that... well, it might save a newbie from an embarrassing hole in the wall.


Most likely, it does a little good and no harm, so might as well go for it.

[slackmaster]

13. I believe responsible gun ownership means keeping control over your guns at all times

[Wickerman]

14. I like the picture of the Kitty in the safe better n/t

[SteveM]

17. At least the cat has electricity for her laptop & DVD player.

[Wickerman]

18. Home theater, I believe, back to back episodes of

"Birds Gone Wild"

[benEzra]

15. Keep your guns out of the reach of kids and unauthorized adults, know the law,

and use them responsibly.

Has nothing to do with only buying guns with pre-1861 magazine capacities or storing guns in such a way that you can't use them for defensive purposes.

[Deep13]

16. Not shooting anyone.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

21. What if they need to be shot?

It wouldn't be responsible to not shoot them.

David

[texshelters]

26. The second amendment says I can have a gun

therefore I am responsible, blah, blah blah!!

Tex Shelters

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

29. Really not sure where you are getting this.

A question was asked and it was answered with opinions. Most of the people gave an opinion of what they considered a responsible gun owner. I'm sure most gun owners who post here are quite responsible. If you have evidence to the contrary please post it.

David

[texshelters]

30. Why do gun owners need to bring out the second amendment

for each argument. Of course there are amendments. There are also exceptions to each amendment. The question wasn't about amendments, it was about what is "responsible." I'm sick of people using the constitution to justify gun violence in America! Make an argument for guns, there are plenty. The second amendment isn't an argument. Slavery used to be legal, but did that make it moral?

That's all.

Tex Shelters

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

32. You mentioned the 2nd Amendment not me.

Go back and read your own post.

David

[ManBearPig]

34. Who Cares?

Before I get to the meat of this first let me be clear on something: There is a difference between logical gun control laws and illogical gun control laws. Let me give examples:

Logical: Having a background and mental health check so that a dangerous felon or deranged person does not buy a gun.
Illogical: Assault Weapon Bans. Banning a gun from "civilians" just because it "looks evil".

Logical: Under the National Firearms Act of 1934 making people go through "extra" procedures to get a machine gun. This includes fingerprints, photo ids, ATF background checks, having the sheriff of your county sign off on it, and paying a stamp tax. This procedure almost garentees a psycho does not get a full auto.
Illogical: The 1986 Machine Gun Ban. This ban says "civilians" can't purchase machine guns made after 1986. This serves no purpose other than to annoy gun owners and make them pay thousands of dollars on 20 year old firearms. The NFA of 1934 already addressed the issue of full autos.

Logical: Keeping people from carrying guns on airplanes, out of court houses, and out of government buildings. The reasoning? Because these places have large amounts of security that can immediately act upon any act of violence.
Illogical: "Gun Free Zones" or "Criminal Safe Zones" such as college campuses. Reasoning? The police get there after you are already dead. Not only are these places saying you can't defend yourself, but they refuse to defend you as well.

Logical: Having someone pass a course in gun saftey and accuracy if they want to carry a gun anywhere that is not their personal property. This helps to make sure that if a situation arises that one should draw a gun to protect others, that they are less likely to kill innocent bystanders in the process.
Illogical: Telling someone that, no matter what, they may not defend themselves in any manner when they aren't on their own property.

Logical: Keeping guns out of dangerous felons hands. Dangerous felon meaning murder, rape, robbery, aggravated assault, or any felony that is of the like.
Illogical: Keeping guns out of the hands of non-violent felonies.

The meat of the issue? I think the 2nd Amendment gives us the right to own anything that is a "small arm". "Small Arm" means anything from a pocket revolver to a MP5 submachine gun. Keep in mind I said "small arms", a nuke or a tank doesn't classify as a "small arm"; so don't come at me with that ridiculous arguement. Even the most staunch NRA supporters do not think we should own weapons of mass destruction. So then what? Well that means that who gives to flying craps about the gun-grabber's statistics. The 2nd Amendment is the 2nd Amendment. If you don't like a gun because it "looks evil" that's just too freaking bad. If you don't like guns, it is your right to live your life without owning one and being at the mercy of any criminals that cross your path. But you don't have a right to force the rest of us to do the same thing. Hopefully the SCOTUS will rule in favor of the individual and throw a huge wrench in the plans of people like Sarah Brady, Hillary Clinton, and the queen of gun-grabbing Carolyn McCarhty.

Responsible Gun Ownership means completely understanding that a gun is not a toy, that you don't use it just because you are angry, that you treat every firearm as if it where loaded. It doesn't matter if the gun is a revolver or a submachine gun. Being responsible is knowing when a situation warrents even the brandishing of a gun, and when it does not.

[L1A1Rocker]

36. Very good post. and Welcome to DU!!!

[AlinPA]

37. I have used 90% of your Logical points in arguments with NRA members in my

Sportsmens' Club and they call me a "gun grabber". They tell me that there should be zero gun control laws. I'm also arguing that they should not drink booze while shooting. Guess I'm a wimp.

[ManBearPig]

40. That's just as bad.

Having no controls in place at all is just as bad as those misguided people that want to ban them completely; it's just as extreme. I won't repost what I wrote, but it's clear what I see as reasonable and what is merely a way to control for the sake of controlling.

[L1A1Rocker]

41. Or banning for the sake of banning.

[spin]

44. It would be nice if politicians were to use your logical, illogical...

method. We might solve more problems using this technique.

Maybe if we all work together we can elect more intelligent politicians. Politicians who don't work for the donations of corporate masters and who don't use issues like gun control to merely gain votes. Politicians of both parties who work together to solve problems.

With an approach like yours we might solve problems like education, violence, meaningful profitable employment, energy prices etc etc etc.

I can always dream.