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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 01:20 PM
Original message
take Canada, for instance
I know most would not want to, haha, but has anybody ever actually read Canadian firearms laws and regulations?

If anybody's curious, I'd be equally curious to hear comments.

Here are the basics. Even if nobody's interested in talking about them at the moment, the following might be useful to retain for future reference. These cover prohibited weapons, safe storage requirements, gun shows, transfer requirements, licence and registration requirements, you name it. Anybody who wants to focus on any particular aspect will certainly not be presumed to have no bone to pick with any other aspect.


http://www.canlii.org/ca/sta/f-11.6/regulations.html



On the table of contents page for each set of regulations, after you click on one of the above links, there is a link at the top for "whole document" which you can click to read the entire document without clicking from section to section.

The above are the regulations under the Firearms Act.

There are also regulations regarding firearms under the Criminal Code. Keep in mind that criminal law is a federal head of jurisdiction in Canada, so these regulations apply nationally.

The relevant law is found in Part III: sections 84 et seq. of the Code, "Firearms and other Offensive Weapons". (Now let's not anyone get juvenile; surely we all recognize that in this context "offensive", which might be pronounced "AH-fensive" in a football context, means "meant for use in attack".)

http://www.canlii.org/ca/sta/c-46/regulations.html



(I think I selected all the firearms-related links from that page.)


Frankly, I couldn't tell you what much of any of them say. I have no issue with them, no need to know what they say, and many other things I'd rather spend my time thinking about.

I offer them because I think they might be of interest, and of course I'll be fascinated by the shopping lists anyone might have of what's wrong with them.

Now, let me spare you all the bother of saying "damn, where do I start?" We'll just take that comment as given.

.
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
1. Now post
the crime stats.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. hmm
From reading that long inventory in my first post, might one hypothesize that firearm crime rates are inversely proportional to the number of statutes and regulations passed about firearms?

It almost looks as if someone thought this would work.

;)

.
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. LOL well it definitely discourages
any kind of 'gun culture'
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
3. Question about Canadian firearms laws
Are they all at the federal/national level or are their provincial restrictions as well?

Both pro- and anti-RKBA people complain about the patchwork of state laws in the US.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. criminal law is federal in Canada
Under the provisions of the 1867 Constitution, which continue as part of the 1982 Constitution, criminal law is under federal jurisdiction. So the Criminal Code is a federal statute.

The Firearms Act is also a federal statute. Whereas the Criminal Code deals with criminal offences involving firearms, the Firearms Act deals specifically with licensing of firearms owners and registration of firearms. Actually, I guess that what the Firearms Act did was amend the Criminal Code.

Firearms Act
PURPOSE

4. The purpose of this Act is

(a) to provide, notably by sections 5 to 16 and 54 to 73, for the issuance of

(i) licences, registration certificates and authorizations under which persons may possess firearms in circumstances that would otherwise constitute an offence under subsection 91(1), 92(1), 93(1) or 95(1) of the Criminal Code,

(ii) licences and authorizations under which persons may possess prohibited weapons, restricted weapons, prohibited devices and prohibited ammunition in circumstances that would otherwise constitute an offence under subsection 91(2), 92(2) or 93(1) of the Criminal Code, and

(iii) licences under which persons may sell, barter or give cross-bows in circumstances that would otherwise constitute an offence under subsection 97(1) of the Criminal Code;

(b) to authorize,

(i) notably by sections 5 to 12 and 54 to 73, the manufacture of or offer to manufacture, and

(ii) notably by sections 21 to 34 and 54 to 73, the transfer of or offer to transfer,

firearms, prohibited weapons, restricted weapons, prohibited devices, ammunition and prohibited ammunition in circumstances that would otherwise constitute an offence under subsection 99(1), 100(1) or 101(1) of the Criminal Code; and

(c) to authorize, notably by sections 35 to 73, the importation or exportation of firearms, prohibited weapons, restricted weapons, prohibited devices, ammunition, prohibited ammunition and components and parts designed exclusively for use in the manufacture of or assembly into automatic firearms in circumstances that would otherwise constitute an offence under subsection 103(1) or 104(1) of the Criminal Code.


(You'll have to excuse some of the stupidly awkward wording here. Canadian legislation is enacted in both English and French. A few years ago, "co-drafting" was introduced: bills aren't written in one language and translated into another, they're written simultaneously in both languages. Theoretically. What actually has happened is that (a) the French versions, in aid of being made more concise, are often so concise as to be impossible to understand without reading the English, and (b) the English versions have taken on the characteristic that was objected to in the old French versions, of looking like a bad translation from the French rather than like English. Who the hell says "notably"? The French notamment, which is just an expression of lazy writing anyway, is actually properly translated as inter alia, "among other things", and we just don't write that lazily in English; we say exactly what we mean and mean exactly what we say. Don't get me wrong -- I'm a strong partisan of Canadian bilingualism, biculturalism and bijuralism (two languages, two cultures and two legal systems). I just think that what is actually happening in these situations is the antithesis of what they mean, it's a messy amalgam that disregards and disrespects the génie of each language, culture and legal system. Rant over.)

Your patchwork of criminal law in general, not just firearms laws and regulations, is indeed strange to the outsider. There's a whole big thing behind it that is probably outside the parameters of this discussion, but it of course has to do with USAmericans having very different concepts of and feelings toward "government" from what the rest of us out here tend to have.

Here's another basic sort of reference for the Cdn law on firearms: http://www.lexum.umontreal.ca/csc-scc/en/pub/2000/vol1/html/2000scr1_0783.html
The Supreme Court of Canada decision in Reference re Firearms Act (Can.), <2000> 1 S.C.R. 783.

In 1995, Parliament amended the Criminal Code by enacting the Firearms Act. The amendments require the holders of all firearms to obtain licences and register their guns. Alberta referred constitutional questions to the <Alberta> Court of Appeal to determine whether the licensing and registration provisions of the Firearms Act, as they relate to ordinary firearms, are intra vires <within the power of> Parliament. The majority of the Court of Appeal concluded that the Act is a valid exercise of Parliament's criminal law power. Alberta appealed to this Court.

Held: The appeal should be dismissed. The impugned provisions of the Firearms Act are constitutional.


The 8 paragraphs of the headnote (summary) that follow that, at the beginning of the decision, explain ... well, heck, I'll just copy and paste. The issue was whether the kind of law in question fell under the federal Parliament's "criminal law" powers, or under the provincial governments' "property and civil rights in the province" powers. ("Civil rights" means what it meant in the 19th century, not "human rights" or "constitutional rights" or that sort of thing -- basically, things relating to legal capacity and status.)

The province that started the constitutional reference, Alberta, is of course our own hotbed of both anti-gun-control activism and right-wing redneck fundamentalist politics. The other provinces joined in the appeal to the Supreme Court because, well, what province or state wouldn't take an opportunity to snatch power from a federal government?

The Firearms Act constitutes a valid exercise of Parliament's jurisdiction over criminal law. The Act in "pith and substance" is directed to enhancing public safety by controlling access to firearms. Its purpose is to deter the misuse of firearms, control those given access to guns, and control specific types of weapons. It is aimed at a number of "mischiefs", including the illegal trade in guns, both within Canada and across the border with the United States, and the link between guns and violent crime, suicide, and accidental deaths. The purpose of the Firearms Act conforms with the historical public safety focus of all gun control laws. The changes introduced by the Act represent a limited expansion of the pre-existing gun control legislation. The effects of the Act also suggest that its essence is the promotion of public safety. The criteria for acquiring a licence are concerned with safety. Criminal record checks and background investigations are designed to keep guns out of the hands of those incapable of using them safely. Safety courses ensure that gun owners are qualified.

The Firearms Act possesses all three criteria required for a criminal law. Gun control has traditionally been considered valid criminal law because guns are dangerous and pose a risk to public safety. The regulation of guns as dangerous products is a valid purpose within the criminal law power. That purpose is connected to prohibitions backed by penalties.

The Firearms Act is not essentially regulatory legislation. The Act's complexity does not necessarily detract from its criminal nature. Nor does the law give either the chief firearms officer or the Registrar undue discretion. The offences are clearly defined in the Act. The chief firearms officer and the Registrar are explicitly subject to the supervision of the courts. Further, the law's prohibitions and penalties are not regulatory in nature. They are not confined to ensuring compliance with a scheme, but independently serve the purpose of public safety. Parliament's intention was not to regulate property, but to ensure that only those who prove themselves qualified to hold a licence are permitted to possess firearms of any sort. Finally, Parliament may use indirect means to further the end of public safety.

The 1995 gun control scheme is distinguishable from existing provincial property regulation schemes. The Act addresses the aspects of gun control which relate to the dangerous nature of firearms and the need to reduce misuse. While ordinary guns are often used for lawful purposes, they are also used for crime and suicide, and cause accidental death and injury. Their control accordingly falls within the criminal law power.

The registration provisions cannot be severed from the rest of the Act. The licensing provisions require everyone who possesses a gun to be licensed; the registration provisions require all guns to be registered. These portions of the Firearms Act are both tightly linked to Parliament's goal of promoting safety by reducing the misuse of any and all firearms. Both portions are integral and necessary to the operation of the scheme.

The Firearms Act does not trench on provincial powers such that upholding it as criminal law will upset the balance of federalism. The provinces have not established that the effects of the Act on provincial jurisdiction over property and civil rights are more than incidental. First, the mere fact that guns are property does not suffice to show that a gun control law is in pith and substance a provincial matter. Second, the Act does not significantly hinder the ability of the provinces to regulate the property and civil rights aspects of guns. Third, assuming (without deciding) that the provincial legislatures have the jurisdiction to enact a law in relation to the property aspects of firearms, the double aspect doctrine permits Parliament to address the safety aspects of ordinary firearms. Fourth, the Firearms Act does not precipitate the federal government's entry into a new field since gun control has been the subject of federal law since Confederation. There is no colourable intrusion into provincial jurisdiction.

The problems associated with the misuse of firearms are firmly grounded in morality. However, even if gun control did not involve morality, it could still fall under the federal criminal law power. Parliament can use the criminal law to prohibit activities which have little relation to public morality.

The apprehensions of northern, rural and aboriginal Canadians that this law does not address their particular needs do not go to the question of Parliament's jurisdiction to enact the law. The cost of the program and the efficacy of the law, or lack thereof, are equally irrelevant to Parliament's ability to enact it under the division of powers analysis. Within its constitutional sphere, Parliament is the judge of whether a measure is likely to achieve its intended purpose.



I'm curious too; there is federal firearms legislation in the US of course, right? Something has to have some inter-state aspect for the federal government to be able to legislate in relation to it, where it's not specifically assigned to the fed? Does that mean that this "federal firearms licence" thingy proposed would be valid if it applied to people taking firearms from one state to another, but not within a state ... and not if a state into which a firearm were taken had validly enacted more restrictive legislation?

.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. duh
I should have pointed out that hunting licences are under provincial jurisdiction -- under that "property and civil rights" power, or some other provincial head of jurisdiction.

Here's the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources fishing/hunting site, for instance: http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/MNR/fwmenu.html

Ontario's Hunting Regulations: http://www.canlii.org/on/regu/cron/20030812/o.reg.665-98/whole.html

Hmm. You don't seem to need a firearms permit in order to get an "outdoors card" / hunting licence. I guess obviously, if you want to use a firearm to hunt, you have to have a firearms permit. The province requires that applicants pass hunting licence examinations that are separate from the federal firearms licensing requirements.

.
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Maple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Yes, one ensures
you know how to use a gun properly...the other one ensures you know a duck from a seagull.

Or a moose from a farmer's cow.

You'd be surprised how many people don't.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Who'd be surprised?
Exactly?
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. Very different from the US, thanks
In the US there is a federal criminal code - See http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ and scroll down to Title 18 - and each state has a criminal code of its own. Most crimes are prosecuted by state governments. There are situations where only federal law applies - Indian reservations and military bases, for example, situations where federal law supersedes state law, and where state and federal laws coexist in a bizarre unresolved conflict like medical use of cannabis in California and other states.

You may find it interesting to note that gambling and prostitution within a state are generally not addressed by federal law. Each state except Nevada has legislated regarding prostitution on its own. Nevada had outlawed it but made it legal and licensed back in the 1970s. Now that is controlled at county and local level.

I'm curious too; there is federal firearms legislation in the US of course, right?

Affirmative.

- National Firearms Act of 1934 which regulates and taxes commerce in machineguns, sound suppressors, etc.

- Gun Control Act of 1968 as presently amended, which includes the Assault Weapons ban and the Brady Act, outlawed mail-order firearms and established the Federal Firearms License system of federally authorized dealers for new guns and guns transported across state lines.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/index.htm

In addition to the written code there are regulations maintained by governing agencies like the BATFE, plus a myriad of Executive Orders (signed by Presidents) that impose some restrictions in importation of firearms from overseas. The regulations are very powerful and in the opinion of many here allow agencies to overstep their constitutional authority. The battle over regulations and EOs will never end.

Something has to have some inter-state aspect for the federal government to be able to legislate in relation to it, where it's not specifically assigned to the fed?

All US federal firearms laws derive their authority from the Article I, Section 8 of the US Constitution, often called the Interstate Commerce Clause. See http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.articlei.html#section1

The federal government has no authority over intrastate transfers of used firearms.

Does that mean that this "federal firearms licence" thingy proposed would be valid if it applied to people taking firearms from one state to another, but not within a state ... and not if a state into which a firearm were taken had validly enacted more restrictive legislation?

Transferring a firearm from one state to another for sale can only be done legally through federal firearms licensees (FFLs). Generally one FFL has to ship the gun to another. Unlicensed people who move from one state to another can bring with them their personal weapons as long as they are not banned in the state to which they are moving.

Generally, states can have more restrictive laws than the federal government but not less restrictive. The cannabis situation in California is a train wreck looking for a place to happen.
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1a2b3c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
10. How can we take you serious?
You cant even tell the difference between a pistol grip and the place where the bullets go. :-):-):-)
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. but *I*

... can tell the difference between an adjective and an adverb. I can even use both correctly in a sentence.

In the real world, I find that to be a much more useful skill.

.
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1a2b3c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. Maybe if i decide to write a book
Other than that i find math to be much more useful to me.
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Man_in_the_Moon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Math GUD!!!
Grammer, err Grammar, err whatever, BAD!!!!

;)

I always enjoy the posts of people that feel they must point out every minor gramatical and/or spelling error another poster makes. To me it means that that person is probably over compensating for a low self-worth and a lack of counter-argument when they do that.

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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. and how do you feel
About someone who ridicules someone who (a) has repeatedly said that s/he does not have expert knowledge and (b) in the situation he is using as his jumping-off point, specifically said "educate me" and asked for an explanation?

Back-slappingly proud, I gather. Another fan of sincere and fruitful dialogue, obviously.

If our friend would like to seek grammar guidance, I promise not to make fun of him. In the meantime, incivil gets what incivil gives.

And anyone who would like to explain what my knowledge of firearms configurations has to do with a thread about Canadian regulations regarding the possession of firearms, and why my lack of knowledge about the former would be a reason not to take my citations of the latter "serious" ... well, go ahead, and don't worry too much about those adverbs and adjectives. Me, I tend to pay more attention to the concepts.

.
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good old bill Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Good for you!
If (god forbid) three people kick in your back door this weekend at about 2:30am, pull you out of bed and drag you by your hair to your kitchen and procede to beat your brains out with a baseball bat, it is comforting to know that they will stop when you say, with a forcefull voice, "stop hitting me with that giant bat"! I will therefore suggest to my local police chief to send the officers on our department to an english class as opposed to weapons training.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. Gee, Bill.....
That happen a lot where you live?

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demsrule4life Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. I have always found it helpful
to speak proper english while I was defending my life. So much more usefull than using a gun.
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RoeBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-09-03 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. That would be because...
...she doesn't know anyone, not a single person, who owns a gun.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. my goodness
"she doesn't know anyone, not a single person, who owns a gun."

Someone else has an imaginary friend.

For you, I'll do that math. My good friend/contractor/tenant/neighbour owns firearms. I did require, in his lease when he lived here, that he leave them at his country property and not keep them in his apt. in this neighbourhood. He had no problem with that.

My former lover in a small town hunted and owned firearms (as did all the lawyers I worked with, and other people I knew, and as I'm sure they all still do). His disabled, depressed 13-yr-old son had killed himself with one of them about a year before I moved there.

Just f'r instance, eh? And just as I've said several times before.

But you keep right on making those false allegations that you know to be false and that you cannot plausibly deny knowing to be false. And we'll all know what to call 'em.

.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. What would the RKBA crowd do without
hysteria and horseshit? They'd have to be mute.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Another baseless attack
Do you think there's enough poison in that well yet, Benchley?
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Nothing at all baseless about it, slack...
It's based in obvious fact.

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RoeBear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. Then I apologize...
...really truly apologize.

But I'm sure there was a Canadian posting here who told me that they didn't know anyone who owned a gun. Anyone recall that?

(Do you recall taking my head off for my not remembering that you are form Canada or was that someone else too?)
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 12:19 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. yup

And it might have been glarius, or spazito.

There is no reason that a Canadian who lives in a city and does not engage in hunting would know anyone who owns a gun. Of course, it's quite likely that s/he does know people who own guns, for hunting, and just doesn't know that they do. There is, after all, quite a high rate of firearms ownership in Canada.

What I've yet to figure out is what my (or anyone else's) knowing or not knowing anyone who owns a firearm has to do with a proposed discussion of Canadian legislation and regulations governing firearms ownership.

Any theories on that one?

.
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MrBenchley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-10-03 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. Gee, who's that who can't take anyobdy serious....
Was that the guy trying to peddle a phony Janet Reno quote the other day? Was that the one who said he'd ask about it in the General Disccussion folder...BUT NEVER DID?
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