SKS

[1a2b3c]

pre-ban

post-ban

[liberalhistorian]

1. Touche!

BTW, I have been looking for a place locally for firearms training, and am not sure what kind of criteria I should be looking for. I think you'll remember that I've changed my whole position on this issue since my robbery and have decided to get some training and consider getting a gun. Any suggestions?

[a2birdcage]

2. Sometimes........

your local sporting goods stores will offer NRA approved concealed carry classes. I took one of these and learn a great amount of information not only on concealed carry but technique, ammunition and equipment. This is what I would recommend for you if you live in a place that offers such a class. Have you decided on a firearm yet? Are there any your curious about but have questions? Don't be afraid to ask. If you want to learn more just by reading I would recommend you join a site called www.ar15.com. You can register for free and there are areas on there that cover ever aspect of firearms. It's not just about the AR-15. You can actually even browse it for free if the site is not too busy.

[liberalhistorian]

4. Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.

I was a staunch Million Mom March, Brady Organization type before my robbery last month, so I frankly don't know anything about guns or firearms training. So I'm not sure what kind of gun would be best, what kind of training class is best, etc. I'll check out the link, thanks again.

[happyslug]

9. Also practice

One of the problems with firearms is people tend NOT to practice with them. The more powerful the weapon the more practice is needed. You will heard people on this broad praise the 45 Auto (and it is the best round for a pistol) BUT it is a round that you MUST practice to hit anything with. Police and various armies liked the 9mm and the 38 Special for years because it was easier to learn to operate them than a 45 Auto. If you can not practice every week (and most people can not) I would tell you to stay away from the 45 and go with a easier weapon to master.

Second, the style today is the Automatic Pistols, but revolvers are consider safer for most people to operate. The reason is most revolvers's cylinders comes out of the side of the revolvers for purposes of reloading. This also permits you to see in an instance if it is loaded or not. In automatics you can pull out the Magazine, but there may still be a round in the chamber you must remove by working the action. Even people with extensive training sometime screw this up and either forget to remove the round in the chamber OR work the action BEFORE removing the magazine (the round in the chamber comes out BUT the pistol loads another from the magazine into the chamber. You thus have the situation with the magazine in your hand a lose round from the chamber AND THE GUN IS STILL LOADED. Police departments for years prefer their officers to have revolvers do to this problem with automatics. And I know the cardinal rule of firearms safety, always assume the weapon is loaded. The point of the above is to show that some weapons are easier to operate safer that others.).

Third, I mentioned before that the Russians when arming their solders with pistols decided to give them the Makorov. It had several attributes, 1. It was cheap to make (being the most powerful round capable of being fired in a simple blow back action) 2. Easier to learn to shoot given its fairly powerful (its 9x18 mm Round is weaker than either the 9mm Luger or 38 Special Rounds).

I have heard the Makarov it is a reliable double action weapon (provided you stay with the better build East German or Soviet made versions). If you an afford it a 9mm Glock would be better but at five times the price consider the 9x18mm Makarov (also make sure you can get ammo for it, the 9x18 is not as common as the 9mm Luger (also called 9x19mm) or the 38 Special or the 45 Auto. The weapon would be useless if you have no ammo.

Fourth, remember any pistols is generally inferior to any rifle or shotgun. Rifles and Shotguns are better "human engineered" for use by most people. They are more accurate, more powerful, and have greater range. Pistols sole advantages is being easier to carry that is it. The advantages of Rifles and shotguns are known to almost everyone except Hollywood (Pistols just look cooler than rifles when being fired).

Fifth, go to a range, most people on a range are “Gun Nuts” they will tell you their choices and dislikes (most are from their have read and used but it is a good source of information). Some people will leave you fire their own weapon (I told you these are true “Gun Nuts” they like shooting and seeing their guns shoot).

Sixth, learn your local laws as to when to use a weapon. You do not want to end up in jail along with any criminal you use the weapon on. Learn what you must do (In my home state or Pennsylvania a used of a weapon must leave any area of confrontation (provided he can) before he can use deadly force. Other states have similar rules, some tougher some easier. Also Pennsylvania requires you only use the force needed to stop the criminal attack, any excess force is criminal in itself. Again most states have similar rules but again some are weaker some are stronger.

I hope the above help you make a choice (including deciding when or when not to even carry a weapon).

[brothermak]

12. Makarov....

Da! is good!
East German, Bulgarian, Russian. Can't really go wrong with any of them.

[1a2b3c]

11. They hate me over there

I cant seem to stay out of the politics threads and the place is overrun with freepers. I own the same gun but i am pro choice, anti war on drugs, anti bush, pro gay rights, in favor of staying the fuck out of alaska with any kind of oil drills, and i still cant figure out why the hell we went to war with Iraq instead of Korea.

Good site but I prefer the 1911 forums.

[DavidMS]

17. Thats a suprise...

DU = Place for liberals, leftists and progressives to talk.
AR15 = Place for gun owners, perticulary fans of the ar15 rifle.

Can liberals not own guns? or not support the rights of others to do so? That seems to be a contridiction in terms. And an excelent way to loose politicaly?

Why turn away supporters for not being pure enough? It would be like saying that someone with perfect liberal credentials but happens to be for very defensable reasions to be very uncomfortable with abortion. Unlike the right we don't have a litmus test of must believe, we have a temperment test wherein it doesn't perticulary matter what one believes but the framework that one believes it. It permits a vocal minority to individualy interperate the second amendment individualy to a greater or lesser extent and permits others to support the death penality, as long as it can be intergrated into a liberal weltanschauung.

I guess people just tend to be petty.

[jody]

6. Check the Yellow Pages for shooting ranges in your area. eom

[1a2b3c]

10. Hey liberalhistorian

Glad to see a fence sitter slide to my side. :-)

Check out this link and call a few that are close to you. http://www.dnr.state.oh.us/wildlife/shooting/granges.htm Explain your situation and they will be glad to help from there. Hell if youre close to Nebraska/Kansas border i will take you out shooting.

[Java]

13. Guns

For Home Protection..usually a Shotgun is best
For Concealed Carry..Handgun..(revolvers are more reliable than semi-automatics..and they are simpler to operate than semi-autos)

If you are interested in a handgun..go to a range and ask some questions, then rent different types of handguns to practice with, and see which one you are most comfortable with.

[Man_in_the_Moon]

3. The top one might be in an illegal configuration

Unless it was imported before the EO of '89 (the import ban) went into effect. And I dont think any of the norinco 'paratroopers' were. And as far as I know norico is the only manufacturer of the 'paratrooper' version. The funny thing about the 'paratrooper' SkS is that it was never made for 'paratroopers' but rather was something created wholely for the US market.

The SKS with 'folding stock, or folding bayonet, or detachable magazine' is specificially listed in the EO 'import ban'. Of course is someone has replace enough of the parts with US made parts (think it is something like 10 for the SKS) to turn it into a 'US made' firearm, all bets are off. But that is something that is fairly time consuming, and expensive to do (you'd end up spending more than the worth of the SKS to do so). Of course I could be wrong and it Could have been imported, and have had the bayonet attached pre '89, but if it was mine I would want a solid paper trail of that.

It is fine for the lower one to have a bayonet because it is listed as a 'Curio and Relic', and as such it falls outside of the EO of '89. (one other thing of interest, the thing at the end of the muzzle is a rifle-grenade launcher)

[slackmaster]

5. Strangely the lower one may be illegal in California

Even though it's a C&R, at least in the opinion of the state Attorney General:

http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/zastava.htm

I removed part of a VERY SIMILAR grenade launcher from my French MAS 49/56 back in 1999 to prevent it from becoming an "assault weapon" overnight when CA Senate Bill 23 took effect (1/1/2000). Many other rifles with the same kind of launcher are floating around.

On edit: Whether or not the launcher constitutes a DD has never been tested in California courts AFAIK. If they pushed the definition too far then any 22 mm NATO type flash suppressor would be a DD.

[Man_in_the_Moon]

7. It is quite an imbroglio

Once you add the morass of CA laws on top of the Fed laws, and the ATFs interpretation of the Fed laws (sometimes seemingly inconsistent interpretations, such as thumbhole stocks*), and the EOs and the ATFs interpretations of the EOs. Heck with the fed laws and EOs you could write a book on SKS and never fully explain what is legal or illegal on every possible one.

*- The ATF holds the position that a 'thumbhole stock' is a 'pistol grip' (and hence an 'evil feature') for the AW ban of '94, but they are NOT a 'pistol grip' (therefore allowing the importation of a firearm which would not be importable with a pistol grip) for the EO importation ban of '89.

[slackmaster]

8. I like that word - Imbroglio

For something describing a chaotic mess it rolls off the tongue with a warm, friendly feeling.

You have to become a quasi-paralegal to have any hope of understanding the quagmire of regulations.

[Man_in_the_Moon]

14. Truly

it is a nice word that accurately describes the sordid mess.

The ATF, err I guess it is the BATFE now, has so muddied the water with its rulings I dont think anyone (even the BATFE) truly knows where some of the lines between 'legal' and 'illegal' are at times.

Imbroglio rules all.

[solinvictus]

15. Yugo SKS

Want one really bad, but for now, I'll have to take advantage of the dirt cheap Mosin Nagant supply.

[solinvictus]

16. Scope on the Norinco

Is that an Aimpoint? Just curious because I've used an old Red Star on a Norinco and had often wondered about Aimpoint.