Some of you think the police should be the only one to have guns

[virginia mountainman]

Some of you want ONLY the police to have firearms…………

Some of you HOWL in protest about the thought of anyone other than a highly trained cop taking a gun into a classroom…………

Here is a nice example of a HIGHLY trained cop making SEVERAL obvious errors of firearm handling in a packed classroom and ends up shooting himself in the process THAN after he shoots himself, he reaches for an “assault weapon” to “continue the lesson” (I don’t know if it is selective fire or not, so I use “assault weapon” loosely.) and scares the HELL out of everyone else in the room, it would have scared me too!

From my chair here, it seems as if the Police are a greater threat to children with their “special privileges” and SUPER-Citizen Status.

For the record, their have been SEVERAL school gun “incidents” with a cop’s gun, this one got caught on tape.

Not to mention Tazering 8 year-olds

(as for the website, I know NOTHING else about it, I received a heads up about it in the email today, and thought I would share it with my new found friends)

http://www.big-boys.com/articles/copshootsleg.html

Andrew

[psholtz]

1. the police are a threat

The police are a grave threat, esp now that they're being militarized..

and the 2nd Amendment is extremely important..

[vpigrad]

2. Why would you assume we want those thugs...

to have guns? WTF!

About each week or more often, you read in the paper about one abuse or another with a gun by one of the thugs in blue. Most of them never use their gun in the line of duty over their entire career. They don't need them. The experience in Briton has shown that if the police do not carry guns, the public is much safer. Criminals don't feel that they have to arm themselves against the police, and police don't accidentally kill nearly as many innocent bystanders.

[dutchdoctor]

3. Another gun related accident..

"From my chair here, it seems as if the Police are a greater threat to children with their “special privileges” and SUPER-Citizen Status."

So from this incident you draw the conclusion that the more trained you are in handling guns, the more prone you become to accidents?

I would say the proper conclusions would be
1. If guns would be banned in the U.S., no gun safety training would have been necessary in classrooms (I don't recall ever having such lessons in the Netherlands) and this accident would never have happened

2. Guns are far too dangerous to be allowed in any civilised country. If such accidents happen with a police officer, imagine how often accidents happen with people who are less well trained..

[camaro3232]

6. explain how if guns a banned they wont be a problem?

[dutchdoctor]

9. Isn't that obvious?

If selling and buying guns is illegal and that law is enforced properly, the number of people/households owning a gun will be smaller.
This decreases the number of gun related accidents and will eliminate the need for police officers to come to schools to give gun safety training.

Simple facts that have been proven correct in countries (such as my own) were it is almost impossible to obtain a gun. No children accidently killing themselves with dads shotgun in the Netherlands, no police officers shooting themselves in the foot in front of a class either.

[virginia mountainman]

10. Thats a joke!

Sounds like Prohibition, back in the 1920’s LOL

Remember Al Capone?

They Banned booze, then suddenly EVERYONE had it, and the streets ran red with blood for several years when the gangs took over. And folks went to prison for having a bottle of wine at their house.

You CANNOT ban something a significant number of the population WANTS and already OWNS.

They have been trying for YEARS to ban drugs….

With WHAT results?

Andrew, Defender of the Bill of Rights.....

[dutchdoctor]

19. So your comparison to alcohol in 1920s is somehow more convincing

than my comparison to a similar society with similar demographics in the same time period that has a ban on guns and far fewer gun related deaths per capita?

Criminalising alcohol (and possibly other drugs) is a bad idea because in general they inflict little damage to society (apart from DUI which should be punished severely) The person using the substance may be harmed, but he/she has a choice whether or not to use it. This is completely different from guns that are designed to kill/wound OTHERS.


"You CANNOT ban something a significant number of the population WANTS and already OWNS".
I agree it might be difficult, but if people would be well enough educated about the dangers of owning a gun I doubt that many would still want to have one. Why would anyone want to possess a killing tool?

[virginia mountainman]

21. hmm

Little damage to society???

Drunken Drivers KILL FAR more folks a year than guns do!

Dangers of owning a gun??

Most folks I know consider it INSANE to NOT own a gun!

I see we have 2 different points of view, but I can tell you this, that MORE folks are FAR more attached to their guns, than their booze.

In most rural areas, guns are handed down from grandfather, to father, to son.

And I also have a .22 from my grandmother that my daughter will get soon!

And those items are precious to the owners, they WILL NEVER turn them in, you can FORGET ABOUT IT. Those firearms are considered family members. And in most cases a politician suggesting what you suggest, would get run out of office the MOMENT he suggests that.

Look at how rural Democrats have been DECIMATED the past 10 years if you don't believe me.

Andrew

[dutchdoctor]

29. hmm

"Drunken Drivers KILL FAR more folks a year than guns do!"
That is exactly why I stated that DUI should be punished severely.

Can't argue with most of your other points though, I know guns are deeply engrained in American society. Unfortunately, IMHO

[camaro3232]

25. achohol and drugs cause alot more deaths than guns

How is owning a gun dangerous if you are educated about it and know what you are doing? A gun only is a killing tool is you are shooting it at people. Millions of people enjoy target shooting, competition or hunting. Anything can be used as a killing tool, its BS to say that. It's easy for you to argue because you do not like guns and have no interest in them

[alwynsw]

33. Why would anyone want to possess a killing tool?

A few reasons:

I hunt. I target shoot. Home defense (yes, I've been in that position and used a firearm for the defense of my wife, my child, and me). Collectors value/investment (I've made a fair amount of money over the years trading and selling firearms.)

Killing tool? Yes, in some instances. It's a recreation tool in far more instances.

[camaro3232]

12. thats crazy / Drugs are illegal but how much money and time is spent educa

educateing kids about them? Theres no way that would reduce gun related incidents. The U.S. is alot different that the Netherlands. If you think it is hard to buy a gun then you are not looking hard enough. Tell me what is illegal that you have trouble buy?

[dutchdoctor]

14. When comes to explaining the difference in the number of people dying

..in gun related accidents, the biggest difference between the U.S. and the Netherlands is the availability of guns. You think that is crazy? Please tell me which difference between our countries would better explain the facts.

HEY: you edited your post (completely rewrote it) so now my response makes no sense.. o well, never mind

[camaro3232]

15. Canada has alot more guns than the US and there are less incidents

If more people were educated about firearms then there would be less deaths. Guns will be around if they are illegal or not. There are more people in the U.S. They are needed to protect out great nation. I agree there are senseless accident but they could be precented with education. I do not think the availabilty of guns is crazy, I think the fact that some people think banning them will solve problems is crazy. The number of prevented robberies, rapes, break ins and murders are far greater than the number of addcidents by guns. I ask again what is illegal that cannot be bought?


"Why would making laws prohibiting the ownership of guns keep people who disregard the law from getting them anyways?

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms…disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants, they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." - Thomas Jefferson.

[dutchdoctor]

27. Replying to various remarks in your posts

"If you think it is hard to buy a gun then you are not looking hard enough. Tell me what is illegal that you have trouble buy?"
It is pretty easy to rape someone too. Do you suggest legalising rape too? Guns are tools for killing, owning one is morally wrong and that alone is enough reason to ban them.

"Guns will be around if they are illegal or not."
But the fewer there are, the fewer the accidents. It is at least as effective as education.

"They are needed to protect out great nation."
Don't you think the worlds biggest defense budget (30% of the total global spending on arms, more than numbers 2-9 combined) and the worlds biggest nuclear, chemical and biological arsenal go a long way in doing that? There are far more effective ways to better protect your great country (a sensible foreign policy to start with).

"The number of prevented robberies, rapes, break ins and murders are far greater than the number of accidents by guns."
Have any numbers for that? Is the incidence of armed robbery in the U.S. lower than in other countries?

"Why would making laws prohibiting the ownership of guns keep people who disregard the law from getting them anyways?"
You make the law because possession of a gun is wrong. Then it Will give you an extra reason to incarcerate the criminal when he is caught having one.

edited for spelling

[alwynsw]

34. I disagree with your position on morality

I've often heard the syaing that morality can't be legislated. I have to agree with it.

What is the moral wrong of firearm ownership? The deliberate misuse of a firearm can be morally wrong, but mere ownership is not.

Thankfully, most of us in this country do not demonize inanimate objects.

[sportndandy]

4. Some of us want No One to have guns anywhere

Call me a crazy peace-loving fanatic.

[camaro3232]

5. This DEA agent is an idiot, he shot himself in the foot, how stupid is tha

He pulled the trigger on the loaded gun. Hes a complete asshole. He took out the magazine then check to see if it was unloaded. Then he put the magazine back in, racked the slide. This chambered a round and was ready to fire. He then pulled the trigger and shot himself in the foot. Thats common sense right there. This guy seemed full of himself and didnt know what he was doing. Atleast he used common sense and did not point the gun at anyone. I dont know why you say "asssault weapon" what is an "assault weapon". Well atleast the kids wont go and play with guns.

[Jamastiene]

7. I've never said that.

If anything, they shouldn't have them. They use them on all the wrong people. I wish I had a link to a picture of that girl who got shot in the face with one of those new rubber bullets they are making. All she was doing was protesting chimpy's coronation and ascension to king of the world. We all should be doing that, but the cops will attack us with their guns. If they used half their man power and brain power to seek out and stop terrorists instead of attacking average American citizens participating in our right to protest a cruel and unjust dictator, 9/11 would never have happened. Hell, no. Take their guns away and give them all to me. I'll let them have the guns back when they quit beating black people, blaming black people for every single crime ever committed, and attacking peaceful antiwar protestors. I've got the discipline to say no too.

[cornermouse]

8. What kind of teacher would allow a speaker to bring a gun

into a classroom? That's just stupid.

[virginia mountainman]

11. So, was she SUPPOSED to tell the cop NO???

[cornermouse]

16. Was he there as a speaker?

In a word,

YES!

[virginia mountainman]

18. So?

I had MANY folks coming to my school, in the 1980’s, to talk about guns and the safe handling of them; they brought guns, and lots of them!

Nothing bad happened, and it was VERY educational!

That “so called” expert was showing off for the kids, NOT EDUCATING them in the proper handling of firearms. I have attended MANY shooting classes, from grade school on up, and NEVER, under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES where firearms treated in that reckless a manor, and yes, I am talking about the cavalier way he was waving it around the room BEFORE he shot himself

I will also say, BEYOND a shadow of ANY DOUBT most rural folks have had FAR more experience with firearms than the vast majority of “big city” cops.

My 8 year old daughter knows more about gun safety than he does; and she demonstrates it whenever we go shooting.

BTW, the community collage near where I live, OFFERS “advanced marksmanship” training!

How can they teach that without the guns? Sad thing is, with the crazy laws, it is taught for the most part, off campus!

Andrew

[cornermouse]

20. See my reply below.

That "most rural folks" doesn't cut it with me. Its basically folklore, unfounded on demonstrable and observable fact. And if you think allowing a speaker to come into a school with a gun is going to teach kids about gun safety in, what, a half hour-hour session...well, that says it all.

[virginia mountainman]

26. folklore, unfounded on demonstrable and observable fact

If you want, I will introduce you to them then…………

my daughter, my neighbors, my wife, 90% of the people I went to school with………..

Practically everyone I know…………….. And I have traveled most of this great land we call America……..

I will tell you another shocker, I bought my FIRST handgun, from my seventh grade science teacher, I gave him 50 bucks in 2nd period class, he handed my the gun, AND a box of ammo, this was in 1988, and I carried the gun in its box, carefully in my backpack all day LONG………….

I have forgotten more about guns than that “DEA” expert agent will EVER know, I would bet money that most folks in my community has…………

That comment is AMAZINGLY elitist and short sighted, common knowledge should tell you that folks that have owned firearms their whole lives would certainly know more about them than a big city cop that had not ever held one until he was 21.

Andrew

[cornermouse]

31. Well now I'll tell you a shocker.

My father only allowed us to handle bb-guns until we were far,far older than 8 years old. He had to see signs of the ability to be responsible in us first.

He took us out personally and taught each one of us, when he considered us old enough to have good judgement, that guns were NOT toys, how to carry, what to do when crossing fences, when to shoot and when not to shoot. He also arranged for a non-open area for us to practice shooting. He personally checked out how my brother's friends handled their guns when out hunting and if they didn't pass his test, they were not invited back.

He would NEVER have allowed us to "buy" a gun from a teacher, seventh grade or otherwise. And it is a fact that a lot of rural people are killed through gun accidents.

[virginia mountainman]

32. To be fair..........

And your father is correct….

My father did NOT know that I had bought that gun; it was done with out HIM ever knowing I did. It was more of a bad judgment call on the teacher’s part, than mine or my father’s. But then again, nothing bad ever became of that transaction.

But…. My father DID give me the skills and knowledge to know HOW to handle and treat it. So no one was EVER in any danger from it.

Let me Reiterate, the ONLY time my daughter, who is about to turn 9 BTW, is even allowed to TOUCH her rifle, is when I am their, with her.

We also have plenty of safe places to practice, and because my wife and I both have CCW permits, we practice several times a year, and our children as they mature, will EARN increased freedom with their Firearms.

Andrew

[bowens43]

24. big fucking deal.

The classroom is no place for guns. I can't think of anything more stupid then bringing guns to a school building. It's stupidity of the worst kind.

It saddens me that your 8 year old daughter plays with guns. This is why the laws need to be much more strict.

[virginia mountainman]

30. Groan......................

She DOES NOT play with …………..

SHE OWNS IT……………………

She is RESPONSIBLE for their care, and proper use, it IS locked up when it is not in use.

She can ONLY use it under my DIRECT SUPERVISION……………….

She is RESPONSIBLE for its cleaning and care……….

What is so wrong with that??

She is a becoming a good shot too!! I gave her an M1 Carbine for Christmas! And she loves it! She wants me to color the stock pink though, I am going to order another stock for it, an old worn out US GI stock, sand it down and this summer, she will have her PINK Carbine!

For those that don’t know what an M1 Carbine is,

http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl08-e.htm

And so you know, Feinstein is trying to ban than cute little rifle!
She calls it an “Assault Weapon” but as far as Rifles go, it is a pip squeak, and perfect for young shooters, once they get past the .22 stage

Andrew, DEFENDER of ALL the “Bill of Rights”

[bowens43]

23. Yes. She was.

[camaro3232]

13. if this DEA agent wasnt an idiot what is wrong with educating kids about

guns? I have been in school many times where a LEO brough in a firearms to the class. Why not educate kids about guns? Im sure all the kids in this class wont go playing with guns

[cornermouse]

17. If you want to educate kids about guns and gun safety,

and their parents either can't, don't, or won't, then by all means enroll them in a firearms safety class. In this area at least, they aren't held on school grounds. Guns in school are highly inappropriate when there are no current threats to safety of the children. Responsible people know that.

[alwynsw]

35. Huh?

On duty cop - or off duty for that matter. Cops in this country carry firearms as part of their required equipment. Most carry off duty as well.

[bowens43]

22. How does this cop's stuipity

justify firearms in the schoolroom? You seem to imply that it's alright to have guns in school as long as it isn't a cop who has it.

That's ridiculous.

[applegrove]

28. Are you suggesting the public have guns to combat 'silly' police? ****!

[Wickerman]

36. locking

gross misrepresentation of all police due to the idiocy of one. DU has no interest in blanket negative generalizations of the men in blue.