Jews fear racist trend

[GabysPoppy]

Anti-semitism is becoming more widespread in Australia, the Executive Council of Australian Jewry has claimed.

Council president Jeremy Jones reported that anti-semitic incidents rose sharply last year, with 481 reports compared with an average of 279.

Mr Jones released the figures in support of a motion condemning anti-semitism to be put before Federal Parliament today by Sydney Liberal MP Peter King.

The council's executive officer, Josh Landis, told The Age that anti-semitism was becoming popular on both sides of politics.

"For some reason there seems to be a feeling that people can be more openly anti-semitic," Mr Landis said.

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/02/15/1076779836570.html

[ugarte]

1. Unfortunately, much of the rage people feel toward Bush

and Sharon is being directed at Jews in general, like a lot of the hate after 9-11 was directed at Muslims.

With new leaders in the U.S. and Israel, and a real effort at a Mideast peace, things would improve immensely.

[GabysPoppy]

3. Do you really believe that?

Hatred towards Jews did not start with Bush and Sharon or on 9/11.

It's been going on for over 2000 years.

[ugarte]

5. I never said it started with Bush and Sharon

only that they've made it worse. When the United States, Israel's best friend and international bully boy, begins invading Muslim countries and killing Arabs, suddenly all the old Jewish conspiracy theories start coming out of the woodwork. How can that not be a worldwide public relations nightmare for Israel?

Do you really believe otherwise?

[rabidarab2004]

16. It is only your perception that this is a new phenomena

You may be more aware of hatred directed at those of the Jewish faith and of Israelis because the press has reported on it more.

However, hatred against the State of Israel has been with us for quite some time. Mein Kampf is not a best selling book in the Middle East recently, it has been a best selling book for a number of years now.

[madrchsod]

6. for over 2000 yrs?

just when did the haterd of the jews start? 2500-3000-4000 yrs ago? who started this haterd for the jews? what is name of a tribe that started all this haterd of the jews "for over 2000 yrs"?

[GabysPoppy]

8. You choose to deny this fact too?

What else would you care to deny?

[madrchsod]

9. i don`t deny any facts

you haven`t answered my historical question. when did the haterd of the jews begin..you claim over 2000yrs.

[GabysPoppy]

20. Let's start here for openers

70 (9 Av 3830) JERUSALEM (Eretz Israel)

Fell to Titus after 4 years of fighting. The Temple was destroyed. According to Josephus, some 1,100,000 Jews perished during the revolt and another 97,000 were taken captive.

205 HIPPOLYTUS OF ROME

Wrote Contra Judaeous, which blamed the harsh conditions of the Jews on their rejection of Jesus.

306 COUNCIL OF ELVIRA

One of the earliest Christian councils, it decreed that intermarriage and social intercourse with Jews were forbidden.

345 - 407 ST. JOHN CHRYSOSTOM, PATRIARCH OF CONSTANTINOPLE

Referred to in Catholic literature as "the man with the golden tongue". A virulent hater of Judaism, he disseminated his views through violent writings and preachings. He considered it meritorious to kill Jews.

351 June, AFTER A SERIES OF PERSECUTIONS (Eretz Israel)

Under Gallus, the brother-in-law of (Constantius) Constantine II, local outbursts of violence flared up in Eretz Israel. Tiberias, Sepphoris and Lod were destroyed, and with them the Talmudic academies. This blow resulted in the further weakening of the centers of Jewish learning in Eretz Israel.

354 - 430 ST. AUGUSTINE

Bishop of Hippo (North Africa), called Jewry a corruption and proclaimed eternal Jewish guilt for the death of Jesus.

364 PERSIA

Shapur II (309-379) forcibly transferred approximately 7000 Jews from outlying territories to the interior of Persia.

507 July 9, DAPHNE (NEAR ANTIOCH) (Syria)

A sporting event was held in the form of a chariot race between two parties, the greens and the whites. For no apparent reason the supporters of the greens attacked the local synagogue, killing the Jews inside.

Let me know if you want some more. We still have another 1500 years to work with.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[meti57b]

4. This is another illustration of why we need Israel as a Jewish state.

At least now, when things turn against Jews in other countries, Israel is a place we can go where government and people will not turn against us.

[GabysPoppy]

7. People forget this story

http://www.ushmm.org/stlouis/

Maybe if there was an Israel, this would have had a happy ending for some

[ex_jew]

10. What about Jews who choose not to go ?

What if Israel's behavior in the occupied territories has a great deal to do with antagonizing their neighbors in the Diaspora ? Or perhaps Jews outside of Israel don't count.

I would have to say that the growth of anti-Semitism 50-odd years after the creation of Israel is not a very strong argument for your position.

I would also like to know what government outside the Arab world has "turned against" the Jews since Hitler ?

[meti57b]

11. So don't go, already. But at least you have a choice.

Before there was Israel, there was no choice unless you consider trying to escape to another place that would be as bad as where you already were, or staying and hoping for the best .... to be some kind of a choice.

[ex_jew]

12. So before there were 200 other countries I could move to, now

there are 201, I might even get some relief by changing cities or states right here in the US. But now thanks to Israel I am by definition associated with killers of journalists, children and other civilians. Thanks for nothing !

[meti57b]

13. Jews have been welcomed in many countries when times and ...

the economy are good and there is enough for everyone. It is in times of poor economy and scarcity that Jews become the scapegoat. This would include artificial scarcity in otherwise wealthy countries, where the ruling elite steal the nation's wealth and encourage the poor to blame their problems on the Jews and Israel.

You are NOT by definition associated with killers of journalists, children an other civilians, any more than you would be associated with the killers of Jews, by being against Israel. To say otherwise is an either/or statement.

[ex_jew]

14. About the association thing

I'm glad that YOU feel that way. Obviously you are fair-minded, but I'm sure other people are not.

BTW, you didn't respond to my earlier question:

I would also like to know what government outside the Arab world has "turned against" the Jews since Hitler ?

[meti57b]

15. I am as fair-minded as everyone else, who supports Israel, unequivocally.

We are all fair-minded and support Israel because Israel does exist, should exist and has a right to defend herself.

You are mentioning I did not reply to every one of your questions, but yet, you did not retract your comment about "I am by definition associated with killers of journalists, children and other civilians", even though you appear to agree that it is not a logical statement.

I will, however, reply to your question. As far as what governments outside the Arab world have turned against Jews,... the Arab world is something like a billion people! If they alone are against Jews, that is enough of a problem, right there.

You are also implying that Hitler was the only one in his time who was against or turned against Jews. Even the US would not take in Jews during Hitler's time.

Regarding the referenced article, widespread anti-Semitism eventually leads to formalized government policy that supports it, just as formalized government policy that mandates anti-Semitism leads to widespread acceptance of it.

[ex_jew]

17. Somehow we're not communicating

I'm not worried about your fair-mindedness.

Nor am I worried about government anti-Semitism, at least not until you give me ONE example of where it has happened, SINCE Hitler and NOT in an Arab country.

As to the situation in the Arab world, it's hard to separate the legitimate unhappiness over Israeli behavior in the occupied territories from irrational baseless anti-Semitism of the classic Nazi kind. I'm sure Americans are less than welcome in parts of the Arab world. Does this make them anti-American, or does our invasion of Iraq have something to do with it ?

[GabysPoppy]

18. Do you want some baseless anti-Semitism?

http://stream.realimpact.net/rihurl.ram?file=realimpact/memri/al-manartv_alshattat_ramadan_excerpt.rm

[meti57b]

21. You appear to be implying ...

that if no government has had a policy of anti-Semitism in the last 60 years (time since Hitler) not counting the Arab world (which is substantially large), then that means there will be no government policy of anti-Semitism in the future.

"I would also like to know what government outside the Arab world has "turned against" the Jews since Hitler ?"

You may or may not indeed prove that no government has had a policy of anti-Semitism since Hitler, not counting the billion-person Arab world (Arabs and Muslim allies, whom I assume would be included in that "world"). However, that is irrelevant. You have not proved your implied conclusion that there will be no governmental policy of anti-Semitism in the future, especially the near future.

Moreover, in the history of anti-Semitism, 60 years is no more than a spec of time. That there has been government policies of anti-Semitism for the last 2000 years is a far-better predictor of the future.

[ex_jew]

22. Anything is possible in the future. Meanwhile the good name of

Judaism is dragged through the mud by Ariel Sharon and associates. Jews who may or may not support the Zionist program are subject to harassment by Arabs who feel sympathy for their oppressed countrymen. As we see in this forum, they are alienated from other progressive thinkers who cannot blindly overlook a horror lasting decades. But you evidently don't care.

Perhaps you should consider that in a nuclear world, Jewish control over a tiny scrap of land in the middle of 1 billion enemies means literally NOTHING ! Every Israeli could easily be dead tomorrow. Because you are still reliving the horror of WWII, you refuse to consider any other form of threat.

And again, I repeat, the measures taken to protect this illusory sanctuary imperil the lives of honest, peace-loving Jews around the world, not to mention their consciences.

[GabysPoppy]

23. First of all

How is Judaism dragged through the mud by Sharon?

When do you think the statute of limitations ran out concerning the holocaust and all it entailed?

What gives you the right to call the existence of the State of Israel an illusory sanctuary?

I am fucking astounded by your comments!

[ex_jew]

24. Since you asked...

How is Judaism dragged through the mud by Sharon?

Because Judaism as it was taught to me has NOTHING to do with endless wars of conquest, of threatening and starving your fellow man. Yet that is the direction Sharon etc. have taken the Jewish state. The Jewish state as I see it has very little to do with scholarship, charity, respect for intellectual pursuits, healing of the world, etc.

When do you think the statute of limitations ran out concerning the holocaust and all it entailed?

I'm not sure what you mean by this. When the last Nazi dies, I suppose that's the end of it. Or do you mean to punish the rest of mankind forever into the future ?

What gives you the right to call the existence of the State of Israel an illusory sanctuary?

A little thing called nuclear weapons. Theodor Herzl for all his brilliance did not foresee that we can ALL disappear in the blink of an eye. Had he done so, and had he been more of a moral individual than I think he was, he might have thought twice before gathering all or a large portion of the world's Jews where they could be exterminated with no trouble at all.

I am fucking astounded by your comments!

Perhaps astoundment will lead to an interesting dialog !

[GabysPoppy]

25. Your education has missed a few details

Let's start with education. Here are just a few institutions located in Israel which you may have forgotten about.

Bar-Ilan University
Bar-Ilan University, one of Israel's largest educational institutions, seeks to blend Jewish tradition with modern technologies and scholarship. The school is located in Ramat Gan.

Ben-Gurion University of the Negev
Student information, academic departments, conferences and more at the website of the Negev's leading educational center, located in Beer Sheva.

Hebrew University of Jerusalem
Check out what is happening at the university, with its campuses on Givat Ram and Mount Scopus. Studies for overseas students available.

Hebrew Union College - Jerusalem Campus
The five-acre Jerusalem Learning Center, situated on King David Street near the center of Jerusalem, overlooks the ancient walled city. Included schools are the Rabbinic School and the Nelson Glueck School of Biblical Archaeology.

The Open University of Israel
The Open University of Israel is a distance education university designed to offer academic studies to students throughout Israel. Over 400 courses are offered to an enrollment of about 29,000 students.

Technion - Israel Institute of Technology
In operation since 1924, the Technion is the oldest university in Israel. The school offers world-class research and studies in science, engineering, medicine, industrial management, architecture and town planning. 11,000 students are enrolled, of which 25% are graduate students.

Tel Aviv University
Located in Israel's cultural, financial and industrial heartland, Tel Aviv University is the largest university in Israel and the biggest Jewish university in the world. Information about the university, its programs, overseas students and more.

University of Haifa
The University strives to promote higher education for all sectors of Israeli society, to promote original research and to benefit society. Here is information about the faculties and academic and student services of this Haifa-based school.

Enough respect for education to satisfy you?

Israeli Charities

http://info.jpost.com/1999/Supplements/Charity/

From a 1999 supplement, this link lists 12 organizations

http://israelandbeyond.com/cgi-bin/pseek/dirs.cgi?lv=2&ct=Charities_,047_Tzedakah

A link with six more organizations listed.

http://www.just-tzedakah.org/reports/reportsindex.html

This link contains the names of hundreds of organizations. I think your confusion with charitable organizations should be cleared up by now.

Helping to heal the world.....

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/07/29/health/main565594.shtml
http://www.israel21c.org/bin/en.jsp?enPage=BlankPage&enDisplay=view&enDispWhat=object&enDispWho=Articles^l232&enZone=health&enVersion=0&
http://www.arutzsheva.org/article.php3?id=1869
http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/med/four.html
http://www.bio-itworld.com/archive/files/030503.html
http://www.personalmd.com/news/n0704065344.shtml
http://www.personalmd.com/news/a1999032909.shtml
http://biotech.about.com/library/weekly/aa110499.htm
http://www.nclci.org/News/technology_news.htm
http://www.nbc10.com/health/2053811/detail.html

This should be enough reading for you.

"When do you think the statute of limitations ran out concerning the holocaust and all it entailed?

I'm not sure what you mean by this. When the last Nazi dies, I suppose that's the end of it. Or do you mean to punish the rest of mankind forever into the future ?"

That is both insulting and offensive.

Maybe when a little girl understands why her grandmother has a tattoo on her arm and requires her assistance to calm her fears every time the door bell rings. Maybe when she can understand all that and explain it to her granddaughter when she is asked "tell me about your grandma when you were young grandma". Maybe then and only then can we say, maybe in another 50 years.

Nuclear weapons?

There are many nations, too many with access to nuclear weapons, yet Israel is the one country that both hasn't used them or rattled their sabers and threatened to use them. "Gathered all or a large portion of Jews in one place where they can be exterminated with no trouble at all?" The Arab countries have tried multiple times to do this already, wth the "weapons of the day" and have not succeeded. They haven't succeeded until now and they won't succeed in the future. It is hoped that lesson will be learned in the near future.

[ex_jew]

27. Always glad to hear about thriving educational institutions

Regarding charity, I'm unable to ignore the fact that millions of humans are suffering on Israel's doorstep, due in part (of course only in part) due to Israeli policies. That's a heavy burden to overcome. Aren't we enjoined to help the stranger ? Do you see the principle of charity in this ?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=394413&

Regarding the Holocaust, you still haven't explained what you mean by "statute of limitations". In my conception, this means that a crime may still be punished until a certain period has expired. Are you still punishing someone for the crimes of the Nazis ? Is it the Palestinians ?

Regarding nuclear weapons, I'm afraid you have misunderstood my point. Unless you believe that Israelis are somehow immune to the effects of nuclear attack, moving all (or a substantial part of) the world's Jews to Israel places them at risk of sudden extinction. Your own nuclear weapons have nothing to do with this.

Thanks for all the research that went into your post ! I am happy to learn more about the country of Israel. However, it's impossible for me to ignore the fact that your happiness and success is built on the suffering of other living humans.

[GabysPoppy]

29. Would this make it clearer for you

"Statute of Limitations" in this case means remembering the holocaust and all it entails. I will give you a minute piece of misunderstanding, but a very minute piece because I am 100% sure you knew what was meant.

"However, it's impossible for me to ignore the fact that your happiness and success is built on the suffering of other living humans."

That is both slanderous and offensive. To accuse anyone of being happy while suffering is going on is beneath contempt. I am most happy we received our respective educations at different locations.

[ex_jew]

30. So, are you happy or not ?

People ARE suffering. To me, this is the reality of Israel and the Middle East. Yet you point to thriving educational institutions, which I suppose make you happy or at least proud. Maybe not.

Regarding the Holocaust, what does "all it entails" mean ? The right to expel others from their land ? The right to threaten other countries with military action ?

Let's put it this way. Does the fact of the Holocaust in some way justify the actions of Israel ? And if so, will this always be true, or
only for a limited period ?

I started by responding to Meti's contention that Israel is a necessary refuge for the world's Jews, by saying that it was NOT helping Jews of the Diaspora. Nothing I've heard so far has addressed this issue. Perhaps it's not important to you, but it is to me.

I'm sorry you feel my remarks are "beneath contempt". "Slanderous" and "offensive" is telling me that you're not enjoying this conversation. Feel free to call a halt.

[meti57b]

26. When someone ....

trots out a label and comments whether they feel someone else's comments and opinion do or do not conform to the labeled category, that's a clue that they, themselves have run out of relevant commentary and are unable to explain their viewpoint.

[ex_jew]

28. That label being "progressive" ?

If you look at my post, I specifically referred to "other progressive thinkers". In other words, I don't doubt that all honest posters on this board (excluding trolls) are or at least consider themselves progressive. I simply point out that supporters of Israel find themselves in disagreement with many other progressives, both on this board and in the real world. Do you deny this ?

[meti57b]

31. it's using a label instead of defining values and characteristics...

that you find are important. Tells me that the person so doing has run out of argument.

In addition, using a label suggests that the associated values and characteristics of the category are specific and established in scope and number, which is seldom the case unless you are intentionally defining the category in a manner to prove that something or someone is not a member or it.

BTW, you never did retract your comment, "But now thanks to Israel I am by definition associated with killers of journalists, children and other civilians." Does that mean you support the same type of logic, that would show that .... you would be associated with the killers of Jews, by being against Israel?

[ex_jew]

32. Never figured calling someone a progressive was asking for trouble !

I thought it was a compliment. Honestly not sure what's upsetting to you about that.

Regarding "guilt by association". To the extent that I'm a Jew (or at least was raised as one) and Israel is a Jewish state, I'm associated with killers of journalists, children etc. By calling myself EX_JEW, deliberately not going to temple, and doing my best to understand the suffering that my fellow human beings face as a result of Israel's policies, I tend to dis-associate myself from that group of people, but I doubt very much if the average Arab hothead can tell any of that just from looking at me.

If you wish to associate me with killers of Jews, that's your business. In the meantime, I'm still trying to understand how the existence of Israel is in any way making things better for anyone outside Israel, be they Jews, Gentiles, Arabs, progressives etc., and I'm still waiting for a reason to believe this.

[meti57b]

33. But you're not calling someone "a progressive", you're calling someone ...

"not a progressive".

and ... the old "your getting upset", which is right up there with resorting to labels?? What is that all about?

Otherwise speaking, I'm definitely NOT associating you with killers of Jews. I'm pointing out to you that your claim that if you were not to consider yourself an ex Jew, you would be associated with killers of journalists, children and other civilians, ... doesn't make any more sense than saying that if you are against Israel as a Jewish state then you are associated with killers of Jews.

[ex_jew]

34. Where did I say someone was "not a progressive" ?

I said that the existence of Israel has alienated one group of progressives from other progressives. Do you doubt this is true ?

Re: association. I'm not talking about who you associate with what. I am saying: Jewish state makes neighbors' lives impossible. If I'm Jewish, I'm associated with that mess. Why does this "make no sense" ?

Meanwhile, you say nothing about the impact of Israeli policies on the situation of Jews outside Israel. Can it be that you just don't care about that group of people ?

[Violet_Crumble]

19. Jeremy Jones...

It's interesting to note that while this Landis guy denies that this supposed rise in anti-semitism doesn't have anything to do with the I/P conflict, Jeremy Jones has in the past accused those who criticise Israel's policies in the Occupied Territories of being anti-semitic. This is also the group who engaged in throwing wild and untrue accusations about Hanan Ashrawi around when she was nominated for the Sydney Peace Prize...

Of course everyone will totally ignore this, but the reality is that under the current Liberal government, bigotry and discrimination is on the rise, but if anyone wants to try to pretend that while for some groups like Jews, women, the disabled, etc, the rise if any isn't all that great, and also try to pretend that the rise in bigotry against Muslims and asylum-seekers (most of whom are Muslim) isn't a big problem and widespread in the community, they're not facing reality. While no form of bigotry should be tolerated, I lose all patience with those who constantly claim that their favoured group (in this case the Jewish people) are being persecuted, while in some cases denying other forms of bigotry occur, or that if they do, they're not a problem because it's only a few extremists to blame. Worst of all is those who not only do that, but themselves have bigoted attitudes towards other groups...

Here's a Sydney Morning Herald article from last year from a NSW Green MP which spells out how the Liberal govt is keen to return to the days of intolerance...

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/11/05/1067989607649.html

Violet...

[drewb]

35. Lyrics to They Might Be Giants... "Your Racist Friend"

Which rhymes with "racist trend."

This is where the party ends
I can’t stand here listening to you
And your racist friend
I know politics bore you
But I feel like a hypocrite talking to you
And your racist friend

It was the loveliest party that I’ve ever attended
If anything was broken I’m sure it could be mended
My head can’t tolerate this bobbing and pretending
Listen to some bullet-head and the madness that he’s saying

This is where the party ends
I’ll just sit here wondering how you
Can stand by your racist friend
I know politics bore you
But I feel like a hypocrite talking to you
You and your racist friend

This is where the party ends
I can’t stand here listening to you
And your racist friend
I know politics bore you
But I feel like a hypocrite talking to you
And your racist friend

Out from the kitchen to the bedroom to the hallway
Your friend apologizes, he could see it my way
He let the contents of the bottle do the thinking
Can’t shake the devil’s hand and say you’re only kidding

This is where the party ends
I can’t stand here listening to you
And your racist friend
I know politics bore you
But I feel like a hypocrite talking to you
And your racist friend

:loveya:


http://www.lyricsfreak.com/t/they-might-be-giants/136308.html