did you guys see this in GD? A possible breakthrough in Hydrogen production

[NMDemDist2]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=968105&mesg_id=968105

Researchers at Virginia Tech, Oak Ridge National Laboratory (ORNL), and the University of Georgia propose using polysaccharides, or sugary carbohydrates, from biomass to directly produce low-cost hydrogen for the new hydrogen economy.
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Using synthetic biology approaches, Zhang and colleagues Barbara R. Evans and Jonathan R. Mielenz of ORNL and Robert C. Hopkins and Michael W.W. Adams of the University of Georgia are using a combination of 13 enzymes never found together in nature to completely convert polysaccharides (C6H10O5) and water into hydrogen when and where that form of energy is needed. This "synthetic enzymatic pathway"research appears in the May 23 issue of PLoS ONE.
Polysaccharides like starch and cellulose are used by plants for energy storage and building blocks and are very stable until exposed to enzymes. Just add enzymes to a mixture of starch and water and "the enzymes use the energy in the starch to break up water into only carbon dioxide and hydrogen,"Zhang said.
A membrane bleeds off the carbon dioxide and the hydrogen is used by the fuel cell to create electricity. Water, a product of that fuel cell process, will be recycled for the starch-water reactor. Laboratory tests confirm that it all takes place at low temperature -- about 86 degrees F -- and atmospheric pressure.

there's a link to the paper here

http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchArticle.action?articleURI=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0000456

[phantom power]

1. It immediately bumps up against the same issues as ethanol...

or any other agriculturally-based scheme for energy production:

1) where are the crops going to be grown for all this starch?
2) where will the water come from?
3) what will be the impact on agriculture used for feeding people?
4) how much energy will we really get for our investment of land, water, nitrogen, topsoil, etc?

and in this case, we get the added questions of what H2 is really good for, as an energy storage medium. Because (as always) H2 is an energy storage medium. It's not a source of energy. In this case, the source of energy is plants. Agriculture.

[eleny]

3. How does it "bump up" against gasoline?

And how does ethanol bump up against gasoline exploration, production, pollution, war, other exploitation conflicts such as what's happening in Nigeria?

I need to find some reports or studies on this since I really don't know how the full picture of each alternative fuel compares with gasoline and diesel fuel.

[phantom power]

7. I think if you add it all up...

the conclusion becomes that people in the future will drive cars a lot less, or perhaps not at all. Any affordable transporation will be mass transit. Subways, long distance rail, buses. Cars as we know them will be more like niche products.

Presuming the basic fabric of civilization holds together.

My issues with agricultural schemes for large-scale energy aside, I really don't see the point of pursuing H2, from any source, unless it's as feed-stock for other industrial products. In terms of providing end-use energy to individuals, there are so many superior options. Methane, Propane, DME, synthetic diesel to name a few.

As far as energy sources go, I reside in the pro-nuke camp.

[phantom power]

8. Oh yeah, and bikes.

I think bikes/walking will be used for most short-range personal transporation. They don't require any fuel, which will be much more scarce no matter what it ends up being, and they are far cheaper, which will be a big factor in a world that is adjusting to a lowered standard of living.

[NMDemDist2]

4. while I can understand your concerns about arable land use, when it comes to water

it has to be a better use of water compared to the tanker trunks *full* of water that my husband hauls around SE NM and West Texas to keep these oil drilling rigs running.

It is astonishing how water intensive oil drilling is in America and I read recently that the Saudis are using more and more water to keep their production up. When they pump fresh water into the wells, what they pump back out is basically toxic sewage.

edit to add this from Texas regulatory agency on water use in Oil drilling. They averaged 6 million barrels of water a year in years when production was down. I'm sure it's much higher now that production has geared up due to the increase in oil prices

USE OF FRESH WATER IN ASSOCIATION WITH OIL AND GAS ACTIVITIES

Water is used in association with many oil and gas activities, including use (in general order of relative volume) as a supplemental fluid in enhanced recovery of petroleum resources; during drilling and completion of an oil or gas well; during workover of an oil or gas well; during solution of underground salt in brine mining or hydrocarbon storage cavern creation; as gas plant cooling and boiler water; as hydrostatic test water for pipelines and tanks; as rig wash water; as coolant for internal combustion engines for rigs, compressors, and other equipment; for sanitary purposes; and for laboratory purposes.

The largest volume of water is used in enhanced recovery. The following table indicates injected volumes of total fluids (produced water, fresh makeup water, and other fluids) relative to estimates of total injected volumes of fresh water. Note that the trend for using fresh injection makeup water is declining. Most fresh water is injected for enhanced recovery in Commission Districts 8 and 8A in West Texas. The 1996 estimate for fresh water injected for those two districts was 252 million barrels.
Year Estimate of fresh/brackish water (in million barrels) Estimate of produced water (in million barrels) TOTAL Estimated Volume of Fluids injected (in million barrels
CY 1998 316 6,000 6,316
CY 1999 276 5,600 5,876
CY 2000 254 5,900 6,154
CY 2001 212 5,900 6,112

The next largest volume of water is used during the drilling and completion of oil and gas wells. Water is used during drilling for drilling fluid preparation and make-up water, for completion fluids, including cementing, in well stimulation, as rig wash water, as coolant for internal combustion engines; and for sanitary purposes.

Fresh water is used in oil and gas well stimulation. Stimulation methods include acidizing and/or fracturing. In order to be able to produce gas at volumes and rates that are economical, reservoirs with low permeability must be treated. One method of treatment to increase permeability is fracture treatment or “fracing.” Conventional fracture technology increases permeability as a result of pumping frac fluid, which generally consists of a viscous gelled fluid, and which creates an increase in the available surface area by creating fractures that are “propped up” or held open by the propping agents in the frac fluid.

Hydraulic fracturing consists of pumping into the formation large volumes of fresh water that generally has been treated with a friction reducer, surfactant and clay stabilizer, and that contains sand. Hydraulic fracturing maximizes the horizontal length of the fracture while minimizing the vertical fracture height. The fractures, which are held open by the sand, result in increased surface area, which further results in increases in the desorption of the gas from the shale and increases in the mobility of the gas. The result is lower completion costs and faster recovery of a larger volume of the gas-in-place. The volumes injected during hydraulic fracturing treatment can range from 70,000 barrels in a vertical well to over 90,000 barrels in a horizontal well. Fracing, where necessary, generally takes place immediately after drilling and periodically during the life of the well.

[jpak]

2. Yup

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x97173

:hi:

[NMDemDist2]

5. ROFL I should have known that wouldn't slip by you jpak

:yourock:

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

6. It seems as if...

There will always be naysaying about any alternative energy solution. Aggressive naysaying, even.