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A challenge to the nuke-firsters: where in California would you site a nuke?

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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 05:55 PM
Original message
A challenge to the nuke-firsters: where in California would you site a nuke?
It's not really fair for California to put her power plants in other western states. Obviously so-called "alternative" energy sources are not going to wean us off the teat of cheap coal energy imported from our neighbors anytime soon. Coal plants are hard to build in this state, and natural gas is getting harder every year to justify.

Nuclear energy has problems, but maybe--just maybe--it solves more problems than it creates.

So if you were going to build a nuclear power plant in this state, where would you put it?

Remember, you have to have 30 mile buffers around tribal lands, national parks, national forests, wildlife refuges, BLM lands, and wilderness areas. You can't build a power plant too close to an active fault line, or in certain air pollution control areas. You have to have access to lots of clean water and access to transmission lines (or a clear corridor to build new lines, hopefully avoiding the aforementioned public and tribal lands, as well as the property of potentially irate citizens or unfriendly municipalities). It's also got to be near rail lines so that materials can get to the site. Obviously, you can't build the thing on the side of a mountain, so topography has to be taken into account. Also, environmental justice is a huge issue in the state, so you have to site the plant in an area that's not overwhelmingly poor, Black, Native American, or Latino.

So where do you put the thing? :shrug:
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 05:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. Nevada.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Why you got to hate on Arizona, man?
:shrug:
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Joe for Clark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. That is funny.
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. I'd be OK selling nuclear electricity to CA from AZ. We could use the revenue.
Maybe it's not a bad plan. We might have more available land for siting. And no major fault lines.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Plus you could make the argument that you could get more Colorado River water
Like, you're just using it on our behalf. :D
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Right. Water. Not exactly plentiful in our future.
If it could be done in closed-system, it would be not a big problem.
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pinto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
2. Where did you get these standards?
Remember, you have to have 30 mile buffers around tribal lands, national parks, national forests, wildlife refuges, BLM lands, and wilderness areas. You can't build a power plant too close to an active fault line, or in certain air pollution control areas. You have to have access to lots of clean water and access to transmission lines (or a clear corridor to build new lines, hopefully avoiding the aforementioned public and tribal lands, as well as the property of potentially irate citizens or unfriendly municipalities). It's also got to be near rail lines so that materials can get to the site. Obviously, you can't build the thing on the side of a mountain, so topography has to be taken into account. Also, environmental justice is a huge issue in the state, so you have to site the plant in an area that's not overwhelmingly poor, Black, Native American, or Latino.

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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Eh, from the guy who sits next to me at work?
:D

One thing I left out: the NIMBY map. Oh yes, there is such a thing. :D
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phantom power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
6. Decomission existing fossil plants and site them there.
It solves the siting problem by using sites that have already passed the gauntlet, and it also explicitly replaces fossil energy with carbon-neutral nuclear, which really is the goal of the exercise anyway.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. This is actually an interesting solution
My initial response was that a lot of the existing plants were built before the Age of Environmental Review, so they were sort of grandfathered in. I was thinking that putting a new plant on the existing site might open a can of worms better left closed. However, the existing conditions in this scenario would be with the old, polluting plant as the baseline condition. So the new nucular plant would be the environmentally preferred alternative. So even if there were siting problems with the existing plants, the new plants could theoretically be an improvement on the baseline.

:D
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 07:18 PM
Response to Original message
10. Mexico?
Don't laugh, it could happen.

But I honestly don't think it's going to happen in California soon. If nuclear is the direction we need to go then Arizona, Nevada, or Mexico are going to build nukes first, and make good money exporting electricity to California.

All hell is going to break loose when the cars stop coming to Las Vegas, and they'll finally build both the high speed train and nukes.

And God Forbid they have to set their air conditioners any higher is Scottsdale. Palo Verde will get new reactors first.

I dunno. Barstow could become the west's nuclear city and electric high speed railroad center.

I think there's going to be really big differences between the way we do things now and they way we'll be doing things twenty years from now.

The people who are going to live near massive non-fossil fuel energy developments aren't going to have a lot of say in the matter, and will probably support them anyways because they don't like to be hungry, homeless, and out of work.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 08:55 PM
Response to Original message
12. Are we looking for places selected rationally, or irrationally?
Edited on Thu Apr-19-07 09:16 PM by NNadir
I guess you're talking to me.

First question: Why would an air pollution zone count? The point of nuclear energy is that it doesn't produce air pollution. Thus it would be useful to demolish say, the gas plant at Morro Bay and replace it with a nuclear plant. Ditto the plants in Los Angeles. (I have always hated those giant smoke stacks.) Note that the reason for doing this is not for capacity, but for climate change.

Secondly, many of the nuclear plants in Japan have experienced earthquakes. Zero nuclear plants have failed. Thus, I think the stuff about earthquakes is a something that is a little more worked up in the imagination than serious risk analysis would support. There is, in my view, hardly any rational reason why nuclear energy must be risk free while every other form of energy is exempt from a consideration of risk. It is rather pointing to tell that although dam failures were responsible for the greatest loss of life in energy history, Banqiao, two hundred thousand or more people killed in a single night in 1975, nobody is calling for the closure of California dams because there are earthquakes. One of the largest California disasters was the collapse of the St. Francis dam (450 killed) and it didn't even need an earthquake.

Next, nuclear power plants do not need rail facilities since they are fueled once every two years, and only with 100 MT of fuel, an amount that could be carried in one or two trucks.

So this problem of rail applies only to coal. Note that no huge off loading terminals are required either as is the case with natural gas (if the gas can be found).

The transmission lines problem applies to any power plant, including the coal fired plants importing from Nevada, and including the Hoover dam. So there is no special reason to consider this a question for "nuclear firsters."


Now, let's talk needs. In the present case, I will only consider base load, since that is what nuclear power does exceptionally well, better than any other form of energy in fact.

Selecting for Jan 15, 2007 as a sort of baseline figure: http://currentenergy.lbl.gov/ca/index.php I see about 24,000 MWe of base demand.

California has about 2100 MW of geothermal power. (I have no problem with expanding this.) That leaves 22,000 MWe to be addressed.

California has about 37,000 MWe of natural gas capacity, some of which (unconscionably in my view) is used for base load. Many of these are small plants of under 100 MWe, but the 25 largest plants, including plants like Moss Landing, account for 11,000 MWe. If we assume (somewhat arbitrarily) that these large plants are operating as base load plants, they should be replaced by nuclear.

California has about 13,000 MWe of hydroelectric.

This means that about 9,000 MWe are required if the hydroelectric doesn't fail in droughts.

Nine thousand MWe would represent approximately the nuclear capacity required. If they are 1500 MWe EPR type reactors, that's six reactors.

Here is what I would do:

I would expand the Diablo Canyon site, first off. One or two reactors.

I would rebuild a reactor on the site of the decommissioned San Onofre site. (San Onofre-1). Maybe nuclear facilities could be built on the Fort Ord site as part of a demilitarization program. One reactor, that makes 3.

I would rebuild Rancho Seco, which was closed by public stupidity in the 1980's. The Sacramento area could stand to have a few more reactors, I think

One or two makes 4 or 5.

A new reactor has been proposed in Fresno. That would be a good place, running on recycled city water for cooling. This system could be arranged to recycle city water in fact, representing a cogeneration opportunity.

Six.

Ditto Bakersfield.

Seven (if needed).

Monterrey. Maybe we could close Fort Ord and build something that contributes better to humanity than the machineries of war.

Eight or nine if needed.

Of course I am not supposed to figure out California's siting problems in order to advance the argument that nuclear power is the cleanest and safest option for energy. I understand that there is a NIMBY list, of objections but that is not to say that the list is necessarily rational. As stated, many of the objections on the NIMBY list are without merit in the nuclear case since they don't apply.

The California antinuclear sentiment of the last decades has lead to a de facto assumption that natural gas power is risk free. It is not. There is no such thing as risk free energy, not in California, not in North Dakota, not in Brazil not in Lesotho.

I have no illusions that California will build the nuclear power plants it should build to have an ethical energy profile. I am very familiar with the rote objections to nuclear power, but they are emotional arguments based on very low public comprehension of risk.

I spent almost two decades of my life in California and I know the culture. In fact when I was a young man, back in the 1970's, I could sing the "renewables will save us" song as if I had founded the band. I came to the nuclear side through disillusionment with the "renewables will save us" meme that I first heard there. Here's what the singing of that siren song led to: Vast new natural gas capacity.

I think you have big problems ahead of you out there. You are lucky that Diablo Canyon did not go the way of Shoreham and you are unlucky that Rancho Seco was shut. I hope you can figure out what to do, but frankly, I'm not optimistic at all that you will.

California, I predict, especially if climate change hits the water/hydroelectric supply is, going to be in bad shape. Compared to what is now likely to happen there, the imagined threat of an earthquake someday near some nuclear plant is going to seem like very small potatoes.

I would love it, by the way, if someone took down those ugly smoke stacks at Moss Landing and replaced them with a containment dome. It would then be a pleasure to drive down that stretch of route 1 coming into Watsonville. Hell, I would have no problem whatsoever with them doing the same thing in Redondo Beach and El Segundo, although undoubtedly local heads would explode.

They can leave up all the solar, wind capacity. It's no skin off my back. Hell they can even leave some of the natural gas infrastructure there and run it on days when Californians are feeling particularly suicidal. I'd have no objection to gas peak power being phased out by peak solar, but in fact, solar power is nowhere near meeting an objective to shut one gas plant on this planet, never mind 50 gas plants in California.

I very much would like to see California expand its geothermal capacity, particularly in the Salton Sea area. Geothermal is a good form of energy and it works on scale and on demand.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. It's not a NIMBY list, it's a NIMBY map.
It's made the same way as the social justice map, but with different colors. :evilgrin:

None of these questions are especially for nuke-firsters, but they're considerations for all power plants in the state.

I think your assessment of potential demand for nuclear is, if anything, low. I think gas and hydro are pretty huge bummers. And yeah, my mom lives in the (former) floodplain of the Sacramento river about 10 miles downstream from Shasta Dam, so I have imagined what a 600-foot-high wall o' water would be like coming down on me, and it's not a happy thought.

I see no reason not to stick a bunch of nukes out in the middle of the desert where no-one will ever see them and there will be a 100-mile buffer around them in case of a mishap. There is a lot of uninhabited desert in the state, and the tortoises don't need all of it. If there is a mishap and we do have to abandon the area, hey, it's a wildlife refuge in perpetuity now! :D

Finally, California is not unique in having energy *challenges* ahead. We're all part of the same grid, pretty much.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-20-07 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. A nuclear plant built anywhere will have low impact on the environment.
Edited on Fri Apr-20-07 03:29 PM by NNadir
Exajoule for exajoule, you will destroy far less desert (or for that matter any other habitat) with a nuclear plant than you will with any other energy source. (Note that except for hydro and biomass burning (including garbage incineration), no low greenhouse gas technology is at an exajoules scale.)

As noted the small area of the San Onofre nuclear power plant produces more energy than all of the solar capacity in the State of California combined.

If I were a Californian still, I wouldn't care where nuclear plants were built as long as the were built.

However isolation of a nuclear plant from population centers limits to some extent cogeneration capabilities.

I don't actually approve of desalination, but if we must have it, it seems the way to do it would be with coastal nuclear plants. The problem with desalination is not whether it works but how much energy it consumes.

At one point in history, the Diablo Canyon nuclear station was the largest desalination plant in California.

To be perfectly fair, the flash distillation units (that used waste heat) were replaced with reverse Osmosis systems that are net electricity consumers. It may prove however that the corrosion that characterized the flash systems may be less of an issue with modern materials science having advanced.

If RO was still preferred, (and thus desalination necessary) it might be possible to use nukes as spinning reserve, so that the RO drives are shut off when unexpected power peaks crop up providing the needed power to the grid. As such, I think, this could easily provide reserves with a 15 minute supply to the grid, the kind of demand that is most often addressed these days with diesel or natural gas power.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. We'll see multiple reactors at Moss Landing a few years after the natural gas shortages.
They are the only possible replacement, and they can utilize much of the existing infrastructure. I suspect this would happen even before an expansion of Diablo Canyon.

People will be desperate when the lights go out, and nobody will sell the United States gas. The U.S. won't even have the economic or political resources to go to war over gas.

Fort Ord is now Cal State Monterey Bay and they are madly turning the rest of it into half million dollar plus tract homes.


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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 11:02 PM
Response to Original message
15. Downtown SF
It would stop the gentrification problem
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-20-07 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Downtown Santa Barbara
Maybe it would bring housing prices down to under half a mil so those of us earning less than 200K could have a roof over our heads. :P

I'd live near it as long as it didn't make noise. :shrug:

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Solo_in_MD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-20-07 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Lots of lights on at night at any power plants, but other than that,its a pretty good neighbor
We lived neaer Clavert Cliffs for a while.
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NNadir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-20-07 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Try not to locate your house in the turbine room.
Edited on Fri Apr-20-07 07:06 PM by NNadir
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-20-07 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
18. OMG I need new glasses
I thought the OP read "nuke fisters"...

:spank:


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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-21-07 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. eeew
:spank:
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